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Dosage - How much does it really mean to you?

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If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want. With that being said, I have experienced overwhelming 100ug LSD trips and underwhelming 100ug LSD trips (as well as 150ug and 200ug trips that vary in intensity and degree, sometimes the 100ug or 150ug being more profound than the 200ug. Not always, but sometimes).

I very well may have experienced this with DMT, and I wanted to touch base here to see if anyone has had a similar experience.

Last night I weighed out 50mg N,N-DMT, dropped it on my ceramic e-nail, and took the whole hit. Because I'm still only using less than a handful of DMT experiences to judge this by, its difficult to say if I truly broke through (the ringing noise, followed by the paper crumpling and breaking through sound happens within about 5-10 seconds, at which point I'm too focused on the visuals happening around me to gauge if I'm 'there' or not). This experience wasn't enough to force me to close my eyes, although I did close them for a moment a few times and only saw blackness with the little fractal specs of light behind my eyelids. Visuals while eyes opened were on par with what I have experienced before, but maybe a little less intense. I believe it was about 7 minutes from the toke to 'normal', but I was left with the biggest grin about 20 seconds into the experience, which stayed with me until I went to sleep. It was a very 'warm' and 'bubbly' experience, leaving me in awe with the colors that were beaming all around me.

This morning I decided to have a quick minor experience before I set off to work. I pulled out two crystals, seeing that this was visually much less than the 50mg I took the night before (10mg, maybe?) and threw it on the nail. Somewhat surprised at how much smoke was made from these two little shards, I pull the carb and cleared the chamber. Sat back in my chair, expecting my first 'minor' DMT trip.

As I'm sitting in my chair and looking out the window, I see the sunlight reflecting off the houses which makes everything glow this amazing yellow/gold/orange color. I close my eyes to see what is waiting for me on the inside and somewhat see the same thing I was looking at with my eyes opened. Close/open my eyes a few times and the images of what appeared 'inside' started to become their own dance of synchronicity, different from what I saw from the 'outside' (my room, houses outside, trees, etc.). This might be 10-20 seconds in at this point. By now that familiar feeling of 'presence', that one that makes you feel like you're back at your own party or like you woke up from the dream, has washed over me, and all I want to do is sit and enjoy this beautiful experience of the incredibly bizarre.

30-45 seconds later and I can feel things still going 'up' a little bit. I realize that sitting down wasn't as comfortable as I had hopped, so I shift my attention to the couch next to me, pull my bag off, and lay down. Almost seems as if the rapid movements to get to the couch raised by heart rate by 50%. After I lay down, I take a deep breath and let it out. The shapes and colors seem to fold and bend to the breaths that I take, and I keep hearing "Its almost as if breath is what creates the experience" in my head. I look around the room for what feels like the very first time. I'm seeing familiar objects slightly change into other objects, but everything feels so very fitting. I get this feeling of "expected synchronicity", as if at any moment I expect someone will come out from nowhere and say something that will blow my mind, or the experience will fold into itself again and blow my mind, or simply this feeling of 'presence' will shift and bring me with it, blowing my mind.

45-60 seconds later and I realize why I should do this in more comfortable/loose clothing. The top I'm wearing is a sweater-like shirt, and my whole torso begins to get a little too warm for my liking. During this point, I debated how difficult it would be to get myself a glass of water, but figured I would be fine without it. I pulled my shirt up a bit so that my bare skin would touch the cold leather. Ahhhhh... better.

60-120 seconds later, I'm still enjoying the beautiful colors with my eyes opened, so I decide to close them and see what happens. Opening and closing them a few times, because when I closed them the first time, I swear I saw a female-type figure silhouette and wanted to make sure I wasn't 'seeing things' (hah). Close my eyes with the intention of keeping them closed and I begin to see what I think are two female figures, one to my left and one to my right. I could make out that they had bald/shaven heads, and eventually this image morphed into more feminine shapes and colors.
--Came back after I read the post about seeing the "jester" in your trips... someone mentioned seeing female figures that were MOONING him! I had to add that when I saw the two silhouettes on my left and right, in the middle I saw the image of someones booty in a long black/white striped skirt sticking itself about a foot from my face. I faintly recall there being laughter and the silhouettes turning a light blue.

120-240 seconds later, I'm opening my eyes from hanging out with these ladies/shapes/colors and I hear my dog Jameson coming around the corner. He comes up to the couch with a look in his eyes that I can only explain as "he knows". He then puts his front two paws up on the couch and is standing over me a little bit (he has done this every time I'm at peak point on LSD trips. If I'm laying down, he will stand half over me in that 'protective' stance, much like you see when dogs stand over other hurt animals to protect them). I tell him everything is just fine and lovely and begin to pet him. He immediately buries his head in my chest and arms, and it feels as if he wanted to touch on that vibration that was still running through me. I spend a few moments petting and caressing him, while still somewhat in the experience and enjoying the beautiful feeling of synchronicity that just seems to submerge me.

At this point I can't really tell how long its been, but the visuals have hit their plateau and are slowly beginning to fade. I close my eyes one last time and watch as the beautiful colors and shapes just dissipate back into the blackness that are my closed eyelids. Jameson is still next to me, but not half up on the couch anymore. As he was hopping off the couch, I had this incredible feeling of trinity hit me.... Something about the angle at which he was standing over me, then the angle he was at when just standing normally next to me. It was like I had 2/3rd's of the triangle completed, and the fact that his coat is black and white made me think that there were 2 of the 3 pieces present for this triangle or trinity (as if I had the duality of black and white, but needed the third point of view for the trinity)(maybe I was that missing piece?). I've had many LSD trips where I look at Jameson and go "You totally get it!", and he totally does! Quite the spirit puppy, and he always wants to be around us when we are journeying/exploring/expanding.

As it started to wear off, I couldn't stop petting Jameson. I've had incredible connections with him before, but there were certain mannerisms and movements he made that he has never done in front of me before. At one point he went from being super calm to panting with his tongue out, like he is about to go for a walk or something. Kept looking at me, but then I realized he was looking to my sides... almost as if someone were there (hard to tell, but something relatively close to us had his attention that I couldn't see/feel).

What blew me away the most about this trip was the dosage of 50mg vs 2 DMT crystals (I'll weigh them tonight, but my guess is something like 7-10mg per crystal), and how the seemingly less amount had a much more profound effect on me than the 50mg dose did. Also, with that being said, now knowing what 50mg looks like, I definitely had what appeared to be visually double for my first DMT trip, and somewhere around double of THAT for my second (roughly 100mg and 200mg trips would be my guess, judging by the visual amount of the dose and the effects of experiences).

Jumping back to the part where I'm taking the hit of the 2 DMT crystals, I first realize that this is a lot of smoke for 2 DMT crystals, but take the hit anyway. By 30 seconds I'm already judging the come up as being faster/harder than the 50mg trip I took last night (and I want to say I for SURE broke through on this one). My first thought was "Omg, I only took 2 crystals and this is already stronger than what I had last night." Which kicked the thought into my head "What if the less I take, the harder I trip? What if I end up taking no DMT and I realize I've been the DMT experience this whole time?" Obviously at this point, synchronicities are flying all over the place, and the idea of taking less DMT to trip harder (to the point of not taking any and just BEING DMT) just made so much sense (still does, actually). This was probably the single most empowering realization I've had to date... to feel like I'm 'waking up' to this space around me that has already been there... to the point where I wont really be going 'back to sleep', but somewhat always being 'lucid' in this 'reality', until I 'wake up' back to the DMT world.
 
Nice report! I too have a dog and have noticed that we have an intense connection that wasn't there when I was sober. I usually end up playing games with my dog and chasing it around which is something that never happends whilst sober and if I try to initiate it, my dog is just not interested... strange.

Also, most people on here report a sensitivity reverse-tolerance to DMT. Once the pathways have been activated via DMT then it is easier for it to activate the second time around and have a stronger trip with less of a dose. But 10 -> 50mg is a big difference and many things could be responsible including your state of mind at the time (awake or sleepy) as well as intentions etc. I have also heard many reports of people seeing only blackness in high doses, as in the visuals just stop suddenly for some reason.

Either way it is reported widely on here that sub-breakthroughs and breakthroughs are on totally different spectrums and are unrelatable. I hope your future doses will clarify all of this for you. :thumb_up: Good luck!
 
Is dose really that relevant?

As far as basic safety, and responsible use, yes, dose matters, you absolutely do not want to consume a toxic amount of any compound, you should understand how much you are able to safely consume, you should also know the common high end and low end doses and all the potential risks involved. A basic understanding of the compounds basic pharmacology is also important, specially when it comes to mixing a compound with medications or other drugs.

Otherwise does dose matter?

I think it depends on what you are trying to accomplish... it is not an exact science, not by any means. So long as you are within the accepted range, should dose matter? We can understand threshold dose, LD50's, receptor site agonism, and so on, physically it's very easy to understand these compounds, psychologically it's another issue... there are so many factors regarding the individual that come into play, such as their recent stress levels, how much they weigh, their diet, how much sleep they have been getting, genetics, mental health, physical health, age, and on and on...

My opinions in this area could easily be taken the wrong way, so I would prefer not to publicly discuss this matter, if I can see who I'm speaking with, and I understand how they will take my statements and I know what they will do with them, that's one thing, otherwise I don't think it's appropriate to discuss, I generally just refer people to TIHKAL or erowid.

-eg

--------



Christ said “the lukewarm I vomit from my mouth;” and, that’s how I feel about people who chip away at psychedelics and take piss-ant amounts, and go to clubs, and go to class, and go to the mall, and, you know, this is not the program, folks. I mean, it’s somebody’s program, but I’m interested in life-changing experiences, and the wonderful thing about psychedelics is that, as drugs, they are the safest drugs known to pharmacology. -terence McKenna
 
There are many factors that can effect each experience. So many I don`t think it possible to perfectly recreate the same experience twice.

However, with your two described DMt experiences, I think dose was a factor.
You can eyeball all you want, sometimes crystal density can vary to a huge degree & what looks to be a small crystal can be much heavier than it looks. Also, vaporizing efficiency, especially if your method is less controlled in relation to temperature (ex. A nail with no temperature control or laser thermometer). You very well could have vaped either a larger dose, or a smaller dose more efficiently than the first larger dose.

With oral dosing there seems to be less variability in how much is efficiently absorbed & passed through the BBB, but still there is the factor of sometimes reaching peak levels in the blood & brain more rapidly or some being metabolized slower or broken down by MAO if the harmalas don't seem to work as well on a given occasion.
 
If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want.

I see this mentality a lot and finding it absurdly irresponsible. It suggests that you can throw caution to the wind and whatever happens will the drug 'giving you what you need.'

After 2 years of working as an EMT, I can tell you, categorically that sometimes you just get @#$ed. There was a guy who dropped 2 tabs of acid and ended up getting hospitalized because the cops beat him to a pulp after he attempted to assault some girls. He was expelled from school and pretty traumatized by the whole thing.

Was that the experience he needed?

I've seen plenty of people get carted off to the hospital in ambulances, sometimes screaming, where they're sedated by powerful drugs like haloperidol.

Was that what they needed?

I think this notion that there is some intrinsic wisdom in a psychedelic is dangerous. These are drugs - chemicals with, as far as we know, no will of their own or intelligence. They cause your body and brain to behave in a certain way and sometimes that way can be healing and sometimes it can be catastrophic.

There are times when a psychedelic trip will give you the last thing you need.

Blessings
~ND
 
Dosage is very important. If you take too much, the fear will keep you from opening-up.
Too little isn't much fun either, because there realy is a sort of limbo-phase. Sort of being in between consensus reality and the psychedelic state. It's a bit of them both, but neither one of them at the same time.

You want to take a dose, at least high enough to make you feel that the experience is 'complete'. Not that somehow, something is lacking.
 
Nathanial.Dread said:
If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want.

I see this mentality a lot and finding it absurdly irresponsible. It suggests that you can throw caution to the wind and whatever happens will the drug 'giving you what you need.'

After 2 years of working as an EMT, I can tell you, categorically that sometimes you just get @#$ed. There was a guy who dropped 2 tabs of acid and ended up getting hospitalized because the cops beat him to a pulp after he attempted to assault some girls. He was expelled from school and pretty traumatized by the whole thing.

Was that the experience he needed?

I've seen plenty of people get carted off to the hospital in ambulances, sometimes screaming, where they're sedated by powerful drugs like haloperidol.

Was that what they needed?

I think this notion that there is some intrinsic wisdom in a psychedelic is dangerous. These are drugs - chemicals with, as far as we know, no will of their own or intelligence. They cause your body and brain to behave in a certain way and sometimes that way can be healing and sometimes it can be catastrophic.

There are times when a psychedelic trip will give you the last thing you need.

Blessings
~ND

These are all good points, but I feel perhaps misunderstand the sentiment a little. There's a complex cocktail of factors involved in a psychedelic experience.

Obviously people should use psychedelics with respect - which means an appropriate set and setting that minimizes potentially harmful situations. But I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that one can desire something of an experience only to get something completely different (which in a roundabout way may lead to a more true path to the feeling searched for) handed to them which was of far more value than could have been fathomed prior to the experience.. perhaps something that needed to be addressed a little more urgently than the result the person was hoping for.

It may be dangerous, but these compounds are commonly labelled "teachers" for good reason.. whether it is the chemical showing you something or whether it is altering your perception in a way that allows you access to dormant intuitive wisdom doesn't really change the fact that people often gain insight from experience the compounds give access to..

A typical and simple example of the sentiment may be the following;

"sandra smoked some dmt. She was hoping to communicate with the "mantid" entity in hyperspace, but instead had a completely differen't experience. In this experience she was shown deep underlying issues in her life that hadn't been addressed, and if remained so, could cause her further harm and unhappiness not just to herself but to those around her.

It was probably very hard for her to have this experience - and differed greatly from what she superficially desired going into it. But the knowledge she gained from the experience was far more valuable for her development at that moment in time than seeing the "mantid entity". It was what she "needed" not what she "wanted". In fact she then realised that what she wanted was something much deeper than she had realised."
 
I take the statement "you get what you need, not what you want" as being 100% true, and does not relate to irresponsible use, you could still just say "when you use psychedelics responsibly, you get what you need, not what you want" and the statement would still be just as true.

You may want euphoria, and you may get a jolt, but in the end most will say "I'm glad I got the jolt, because euphoria was not what I needed"

-eg
 
acacian said:
Nathanial.Dread said:
If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want.

I see this mentality a lot and finding it absurdly irresponsible. It suggests that you can throw caution to the wind and whatever happens will the drug 'giving you what you need.'

After 2 years of working as an EMT, I can tell you, categorically that sometimes you just get @#$ed. There was a guy who dropped 2 tabs of acid and ended up getting hospitalized because the cops beat him to a pulp after he attempted to assault some girls. He was expelled from school and pretty traumatized by the whole thing.

Was that the experience he needed?

I've seen plenty of people get carted off to the hospital in ambulances, sometimes screaming, where they're sedated by powerful drugs like haloperidol.

Was that what they needed?

I think this notion that there is some intrinsic wisdom in a psychedelic is dangerous. These are drugs - chemicals with, as far as we know, no will of their own or intelligence. They cause your body and brain to behave in a certain way and sometimes that way can be healing and sometimes it can be catastrophic.

There are times when a psychedelic trip will give you the last thing you need.

Blessings
~ND

These are all good points, but I feel perhaps misunderstand the sentiment a little. There's a complex cocktail of factors involved in a psychedelic experience.

Obviously people should use psychedelics with respect - which means an appropriate set and setting that minimizes potentially harmful situations. But I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that one can desire something of an experience only to get something completely different (which in a roundabout way may lead to a more true path to the feeling searched for) handed to them which was of far more value than could have been fathomed prior to the experience.. perhaps something that needed to be addressed a little more urgently than the result the person was hoping for.

It may be dangerous, but these compounds are commonly labelled "teachers" for good reason.. whether it is the chemical showing you something or whether it is altering your perception in a way that allows you access to dormant intuitive wisdom doesn't really change the fact that people often gain insight from experience the compounds give access to..


A typical and simple example of the sentiment may be the following;

"sandra smoked some dmt. She was hoping to communicate with the "mantid" entity in hyperspace, but instead had a completely differen't experience. In this experience she was shown deep underlying issues in her life that hadn't been addressed, and if remained so, could cause her further harm and unhappiness not just to herself but to those around her.

It was probably very hard for her to have this experience - and differed greatly from what she superficially desired going into it. But the knowledge she gained from the experience was far more valuable for her development at that moment in time than seeing the "mantid entity". It was what she "needed" not what she "wanted". In fact she then realised that what she wanted was something much deeper than she had realised."

Yeah, this is how I perceived it, and I think the 'get what you need not what you want' was taken out of context by ND. Being in an environment conducive to being safe and responsible [typically lying down and immobile on a good sized dose of DMT] and having the experience play out while under the influence is quite a stretch compared to haloperidol administered by EMTs or 'cops beating a person on LSD". Stretching a bit far there imho. To me, at least, these instances aren't even in the same category.
 
EG said:
the wonderful thing about psychedelics is that, as drugs, they are the safest drugs known to pharmacology
This was before the days of internet sales of NBOMe compounds, bromo-dragonFLY and 2C-T-7, of course 😉

dragonrider said:
Dosage is very important. If you take too much, the fear will keep you from opening-up.
I can most assuredly confirm that, for psiloc(yb)in at least.
 
acacian said:
Nathanial.Dread said:
If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want.

I see this mentality a lot and finding it absurdly irresponsible. It suggests that you can throw caution to the wind and whatever happens will the drug 'giving you what you need.'

After 2 years of working as an EMT, I can tell you, categorically that sometimes you just get @#$ed. There was a guy who dropped 2 tabs of acid and ended up getting hospitalized because the cops beat him to a pulp after he attempted to assault some girls. He was expelled from school and pretty traumatized by the whole thing.

Was that the experience he needed?

I've seen plenty of people get carted off to the hospital in ambulances, sometimes screaming, where they're sedated by powerful drugs like haloperidol.

Was that what they needed?

I think this notion that there is some intrinsic wisdom in a psychedelic is dangerous. These are drugs - chemicals with, as far as we know, no will of their own or intelligence. They cause your body and brain to behave in a certain way and sometimes that way can be healing and sometimes it can be catastrophic.

There are times when a psychedelic trip will give you the last thing you need.

Blessings
~ND

These are all good points, but I feel perhaps misunderstand the sentiment a little. There's a complex cocktail of factors involved in a psychedelic experience.

Obviously people should use psychedelics with respect - which means an appropriate set and setting that minimizes potentially harmful situations. But I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that one can desire something of an experience only to get something completely different (which in a roundabout way may lead to a more true path to the feeling searched for) handed to them which was of far more value than could have been fathomed prior to the experience.. perhaps something that needed to be addressed a little more urgently than the result the person was hoping for.

It may be dangerous, but these compounds are commonly labelled "teachers" for good reason.. whether it is the chemical showing you something or whether it is altering your perception in a way that allows you access to dormant intuitive wisdom doesn't really change the fact that people often gain insight from experience the compounds give access to..

A typical and simple example of the sentiment may be the following;

"sandra smoked some dmt. She was hoping to communicate with the "mantid" entity in hyperspace, but instead had a completely differen't experience. In this experience she was shown deep underlying issues in her life that hadn't been addressed, and if remained so, could cause her further harm and unhappiness not just to herself but to those around her.

It was probably very hard for her to have this experience - and differed greatly from what she superficially desired going into it. But the knowledge she gained from the experience was far more valuable for her development at that moment in time than seeing the "mantid entity". It was what she "needed" not what she "wanted". In fact she then realised that what she wanted was something much deeper than she had realised."

I see your point, and it is a well believed anecdote on this and other psychedelic forums but I think what ND was getting at is that we have no way to no for sure that DMT or any other psychedelic has an agency of its own kind. So that would mean that there is entity in the molcule or out of it that can will the type of trip on the user. What ND is saying is that we just ingest molecules and what happens next is the result of biochemisty and preceding causal factors in the brain and not the will of some metaphysical entity in giving the person "what they need" rather than "what they want"

Humans have a tendency to anthropomorphize about these types of things.

tatt said:
and I think the 'get what you need not what you want' was taken out of context by ND.

Yes, I agree but what he said was still very truthful and pertinent. We can't exclude it's value.
 
downwardsfromzero said:
EG said:
the wonderful thing about psychedelics is that, as drugs, they are the safest drugs known to pharmacology
This was before the days of internet sales of NBOMe compounds, bromo-dragonFLY and 2C-T-7, of course 😉

When McKenna made this statement he was referring to tryptamine and phenethylamine plant derived psychedelics which have a long history of human use...

McKenna was aware of the synthetic psychedelics, he also discouraged their use for the very reason that they were not understood and could potentially cause injury or death. (Which is why the long history of human use was always stressed by McKenna as being a crucial prerequisite for a drugs use )


-eg
 
Thank you guys so much for your responses and input. Every perspective shared here has weight and truth behind it, and I find it incredibly beautiful that we are able to share such experiences.

When I was asking "Dosage - How much does it really mean to you?", I wasn't trying to be too literal about the actual weight of the substance being taken. Of course you want to consider basic safety, responsible use, set/setting, doing your research... all before jumping into something like this. My question aims to those who have taken all the necessary steps they could to provide themselves and/or others with a safe environment for the experience, but recognizes that experiences with a consistent/set dose does not provide an equal or similar effect on subsequent experiences (eg. Trip 1 was 50mg and out of a scale of 1-10, I felt like I hit a 3. A day later I do another 50mg trip and feel like out of the 1-10 scale, I hit a 7. Crude example). Basically, 1 does not equal 1 (in my experience).

This is where the statement "If it is one thing psychedelics have taught me, its that you get the experience you need, not what you want" comes into play. I believe this 100%. LSD helped me perceive that everything happens for its reason, exactly as it should, all the time, wether we choose to perceive it that way or not. With that being said, it would be wrong of me to throw out all the 'bad' experiences, simply because they were not what I wanted when taking this medicine/drug/chemical that is basically like taking a giant '?'. I believe that there are no 'bad' experiences, just more difficult ones.

Fathomlessness stated that people report a sensitivity reverse-tolerance on DMT. This is more to where my question was aimed, and wanted to see if others have similar experiences , specifically in the idea of taking less of the substance and getting more of an experience... compared to a trip prior, which had more of the substance, but less of the experience (similar to LSD trips where some 200ug experiences have been incredibly overwhelming, where as other 200ug experiences have felt vastly underwhelming). Being that I had a weighed out 50mg trip on day 1 and hit what I would consider a '4' on the 1-10 scale of intensity (subjectively based off my two prior experiences, where I felt like I hit an '8' and '9' ), and then taking only 2 DMT crystals on the second day (visibly a 1/4 of the 50mg trip) and hitting what what I felt to be a '7' on the scale of intensity, it felt as if dosage was irrelevant at that point, and the substance was going to give me what it was going to give me... almost as if it had a will of its own, or its own intelligence.

I understand there is a whole cocktail of factors involved, and even if we had all the factors, I don't think it would paint us the picture of understanding that we wanted. I can only say that "Hey, I took what I thought to be threshold dosage and got X. The next day I took a lot less and got A LOT MORE of an experience. What gives?"

It gives you what you need, not what you want? I experienced reverse tolerance? It decided I didn't need something so mind blowing the day before, so it made up for itself the next day?

We're talking about DMT here, where its practically impossible to get a sense of wtf is happening to begin with. Does it not seem possible that this stuff could have an influence/agency of its own, with its own will to do as it pleases? Most trip reports I read seem to indicate such ideas...

Much love
 
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