Dreams MAOIs and DMT

[soulman]

One of the things that really interests me about DMT is the sheer prevelance of it in a multitude of speicies through out nature. Especially the fact that we as humans produce it. Although it is a speculation that it is produced in the pineal gland, it seems to be loosely accepted. One thing that we know for sure though, is that we definitley do produce it. And we know that production is elevated at times of extreme stress and during dreaming.

This got me thinking as to why our dreams arent as crazy as the stuff you see whilst on a spice trip. I mean, how many of you guys see machine elves, conscious machines, intricate beautiful cities or any other things commonly reported from the DMT realm whilst dreaming? I dont know if this is just me, but i certainly dont have dreams like that.
My inclination is to suggest that the endogenous level of DMT production during our dream state, is only a fraction of what we pyschonauts introduce into our bodies. But having said that, even a my non-break through experiences (which have been my only expereicnes thus far) are nothing like my dreams. That is to say that my DMT experiences are quite simply abstract and bizzare and not like anything iv ever dreamed of....quite literally. Generally my dreams maintain a level of normality to them. Sure, strange situations may occur, but i never feel as though im psychedlic in my dreams. Theres certainly nothing that i would report as "DMTesque" about them anyway.
If it is DMT that causes us to dream i wonder why dreams arent really like a DMT experience at all. At least, this is true for me.

During dreams, we also enter REM.I was wondering if anyone has watched someone breakthrough and saw the tripper in REM?
I dont really know the significance of such an observation, but i think it would be intersting to note none the less.

I have kind of digressed away from the original crux of why i started this thread, so here it is.
If im correct in thinking that DMT causes us to dream, has anyone ever taken a MOAI before they go to bed, in an attempt to maintian/prolong the levels of endogenous DMT produced during the dream state. I dont have any MAOI yet, so have not tried this, but think it may give interesting results.
Surley it must effect your drrams somehow, either by making them more vivid, prolonging them or potentally making them more like a DMT trip.
What do you guys reckon?

 

[Infundibulum]

One of the things that really interests me about DMT is the sheer prevelance of it in a multitude of speicies through out nature. Especially the fact that we as humans produce it. Although it is a speculation that it is produced in the pineal gland, it seems to be loosely accepted. One thing that we know for sure though, is that we definitley do produce it. And we know that production is elevated at times of extreme stress and during dreaming.

Hi,

The production of dmt from the pineal is not loosely accepted, all evidence so far is against it. As for when or where it is produced, we still have no clue about. Extreme stress and during dreaming are still unsubstantiated and unproven speculations!

How does this change your thinkings?

 

[soulman]

Well whether the pineal gland produces it or not isn’t really the issue here. It would certainly be interesting to know the physiological mechanisms at work, but im not as interested in that, as i am at the fact that we actually produce it at all.

Although you say that production during time of stress and dreams are an unproven speculation, I think it’s a fairly logical speculation to arrive at. A potent visionary substance which causes ones consciousness to leave the body (Dreams, NDEs) seem to fit the bill rather well wouldn’t you say?!

So, just entertaining the idea that it is produced during dreams, i thought it would be interesting to see if a MAOI before bed would affect ones dreams at all, but it seems no one has tried it on here.
I’ll give it a try when i get some MAOI!

Who knows, maybe we produce the stuff all the time which tunes us into this reality, and any fluctuation in the level allows us to tune into a number of the infinite different realities out there

 

[Infundibulum]

Although you say that production during time of stress and dreams are an unproven speculation, I think it’s a fairly logical speculation to arrive at. A potent visionary substance which causes ones consciousness to leave the body (Dreams, NDEs) seem to fit the bill rather well wouldn’t you say?!

That really means nothing to me; what is a fairly logical speculation to arrive at? This is what you think, someone else may think differently. It is bad practice to even try to build theories upon speculations, even when these speculations seem fairly logical to arrive at. Just as it seems fairly logical to assume that the earth is flat.

But I say all this stuff because I tend to be a very critical piece of cunt, so I do not intend any offence of course!

Anyway, the endogenous MAOI system has been implicated in the mechanisms of sleep. See the very interesting paper attached. it's a beautiful reaud and it makes some good references to pinoline, a pineal gland beta-carboline metabolite that has MAOI activity and has been shown to increase serotonin levels in the brain. So, there may be something about the tryptamine system and dreams. But who are really the players, and which tryptamines we are talking about (serotonin? melatonin? dmt? 5-meo? all of them?) is still a mystery.

Taking MAOIs before sleep is not the same of course with the endogenos production of MAOIs The latter are excreted in a timed manner, from certain parts of the brain and acting in certain areas in conjunction with all the complicated molecular dream machinery. This is something that just oral administration of MAOIs cannot imitate. My guess would be that MAOIs will not induce more dreams. Some anecdotal reports from other people also report no strong association between MAOI ingestion (e.g. harmine, harmaline) and more or vivid dreams.

But would be nice to hear more experiences, I might be totally wrong.

 

[soulman]

Oh no, dont worry, im not offended.
Thats what these forums are for, so you can share your thoughts and ideas on the subject, and have them shot to pieces by some smart Alec : ) Joke.
I know what your saying though. I just find the whole experience and subject matter very mystifying and am trying to make sense of it with the information available.
I just think its strange that it can be found in so many ecosystems, yet we really dont know what puropse it serves.
Maybe it is just a gateway to other places, and the consciousness of plants (that contain it) are else where, whilst their bodies remain here, rather like when a pyschonaut breaks through. Fuck knows, it certainly is a mystery.
Anyways thanks for the document. Shall give it a read shortly.

 

[acolon_5]

So, just entertaining the idea that it is produced during dreams, i thought it would be interesting to see if a MAOI before bed would affect ones dreams at all, but it seems no one has tried it on here.
I’ll give it a try when i get some MAOI!

I do, frequently. I either take a small dose of Caapi tea (2-10grams), or a mix of THH+Harmine before bed. I find that it helps me sleep and I wake up more refreshed than usual.

I have not noticed anything weird about my dreams, execpt the fact that I usually cannot remember them on the nights I take an MAOI before bed.

 

[coz42]

One would suggest there is much to learn from harmala tea's. Maybe during a lucid state that there would be most appealing events (Especially during a rue combination; sense of future to come?) but nothing.. out of the ordinary. Flying gargantuan interwoven serpents, crocodiles, planetary beings, the 'lotus' are apparent during a waking state, but very strange that SWIM obtains this only during the waking state.

When I heard about the 'bardo' of tibetan philosophy and the production of the pineal gland both reaching 49 days, one cannot be nothing but skeptic to what the organ is really for.

but Pineal gland producing DMT? rather would just sit on it.

 

[jamie]

soulman wrote:
This got me thinking as to why our dreams arent as crazy as the stuff you see whilst on a spice trip. I mean, how many of you guys see machine elves, conscious machines, intricate beautiful cities or any other things commonly reported from the DMT realm whilst dreaming? I dont know if this is just me, but i certainly dont have dreams like that..


While this certainlyis not the norm for me..I have had dreams that would rival the DMT state. One dream that i had actually was exactly like the DMT Nexus logo above invisual quality, with strange psychedelic sounds as I chased some psychedelic elf like being down a tunnel of technocolour patturns. This was before I had ever tried the spice, but I had used mushrooms before.

When i was young I used to have the same distinct dream(quite different from myusual dreams) quite often of being in a void where I had no body, everything was just a strobe, like back and forthbetween light dark,big small..kinda hard to explain really..but the first time I had ever smoked chaliponga alkaloids I smoked a larger dose than I normally do now, and it brought me to the EXACT same place. I couldnt believe it..makes me think that 5meo might play a bigger role in our physiology than N,N-DMT..these dreams also scared the living shit out me every time, which 5meo does to lots of ppl..

 

[acolon_5]

I have had many psycadelic dreams before even trying psycadelics. I don't beleive I have ever had the fractal quality type dreams that a Spice voyage gives, but still very trippy in nature.

 

[soulman]

Hmmm interesting,

So it seems some people do have pychedelic dreams.

 

[jamie]

I have had many psycadelic dreams before even trying psycadelics. I don't beleive I have ever had the fractal quality type dreams that a Spice voyage gives, but still very trippy in nature.

Yeah i know what you mean.. I seem to have more and more dreams lately with the most strage plots to them, like UFO's chasing me around the city and whatnot, in full technocolour(which i thought was normal until my father informed me the otherday that he doesnt think he really dreams in colour)..although I tend to have a wild imagination..

I do get the psychedelic fractal overtones in my dreams to if I have taken an entheogen in my dreams..thinking about all this stuff so often im bound to come across the spice and other medicines in my dreams from time to time, its amazing how well my brain can reproduce these experiences from memory.

 

[DePayne]

Anyway, the endogenous MAOI system has been implicated in the mechanisms of sleep. See the very interesting paper attached. it's a beautiful reaud and it makes some good references to pinoline, a pineal gland beta-carboline metabolite that has MAOI activity and has been shown to increase serotonin levels in the brain. So, there may be something about the tryptamine system and dreams. But who are really the players, and which tryptamines we are talking about (serotonin? melatonin? dmt? 5-meo? all of them?) is still a mystery.

Taking MAOIs before sleep is not the same of course with the endogenos production of MAOIs The latter are excreted in a timed manner, from certain parts of the brain and acting in certain areas in conjunction with all the complicated molecular dream machinery. This is something that just oral administration of MAOIs cannot imitate. My guess would be that MAOIs will not induce more dreams. Some anecdotal reports from other people also report no strong association between MAOI ingestion (e.g. harmine, harmaline) and more or vivid dreams.

But would be nice to hear more experiences, I might be totally wrong.

That paper is great, man - thanks for the reference!

 

[xantus]

so last night I took 3.9g rue, soaked in a few ml of phosphoric acid for 30 seconds then 70ml hot water from the kettle poured on and stirred for a minute.

this was about an hour and a half before I went to sleep.

the thing I love about rue is that...if you sit and relax, you relaaaaaaaaxe. so deeply it feels like the anesthesia during the onset of DMT. but at any second you can get up, do whatever you want. there's no weight to it. this got me to thinking a lot about the placebo effect, and what it was really doing...

when going to sleep I usually stare at the celing, zoning out and letting go...my field of vision will blacken and fluctuate, slowly taking over with a video static that is colorful, composed of many shifting points of video noise that sometimes converge into blobs or grow in size when I feel I'm really letting go.

while on the rue, this felt more intense, coming in a couple waves before I finally went to sleep.

I had a very long dream, longer than any one in recent memory, with at least 4 or 5 rather involved acts. each one with it's own defined timeline that lasted quite a while.

but I dunno, correlation does not imply causation. a larger sample set is definitely needed.
the placebo effect seems infintely powerful at times. a week ago before I went to bed...a thought drifted into myself.."it has been a long time since I had a DMT dream, it's about time for one"
so I thought about that while I was drifting off, and it happened. but it's not something you can just decide every night.

you may be an excellent surfer, but the tide must be in your favor. I think this community helps people recognize what these waves even look like, and then how to be ready for them

 

[bufoman]

I too have had many odd dreams. I have also had dreams where I have ingested hallucinogens and tripped fairly accurately. However my typical dreams are very different then any psychedelic experience I have had. They may be odd, with bizarre crazy plots but they typically are not like a true psychedelic experience with altered thoughts, views and visuals. Endogenous hallucinogens are likely not present to make us trip at specific parts of our lives. It is much more likely that they play a normal physiological role in everyday functioning of our nervous system and body. Additionally their natural biological effects are also likely not to be like tripping as they are likely to be released at specific locations, in specific amounts at specific times. Thus this controlled release effect may result in very different effects then when administered hallucinogens are taken. Just as endocannabinoids are not present to make us stoned but rather serve some natural biological function which administered cannabinoids happen to act on in an indiscriminate manner resulting in the subject effects.

See JV Wallach Endogenous Hallucinogens as ligands of the trace amine receptors: A possible role in sensory perception. http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?A=ShowDocPartFrame&ID=7404&DocPartID=6553

 

[jamie]

i did a littel experiment last night and drank a very small dose of aya(cappi and chaliponga) right before i went to sleep. I put on the dream tree CD by adam shaik and it afftected my dreams all night. Even before I fell asleap I noticed myself falling into a trance of sorts, with some strage imagry, and it felt like I was incontact with some sort of being..although I cant quite recall the whole experience in any great detail..hard to put my finger on it, it was a very gentle and mild experience. Once i actually fell asleap I had VERY vivid dreams, that were easy to recall and I slept well..got up once through the night to eat a small bit of sessame seed butter to see if it would activate any more of the brew, dont think it really did though.

I will do another experiment tonight with a bit higher of a dose...

BTW xantus..do you surf as well dude???

 

[xantus]

I don't but I thought it was a fitting analogy... I Freeline though. it's a similar existence as a wave.

so today I felt quite refreshed and active. moreso than lately. winter solstice is often hard to stay optimistic through for me cause, sunsets right when I get of work and I don't get to skate much...

I think I will be making a rue brew a weekly thing and see if I notice any trends.
also v. interested in mixing in cacao, but this seems to be more of a morning brew? one before bed, one in the morning... would a regular intake of harmaline like this have any longterm effects as long as I watch my diet in the morning and night?

"lots of work in the lab to do..."

 

[jamie]

I actually did consume a piece of dark bakers chocolate 2 hours prior to ingesting aya, and I have a hunch that it played into the effects, activating the small ammount of chali...

 

[DePayne]

Endogenous hallucinogens are likely not present to make us trip at specific parts of our lives. It is much more likely that they play a normal physiological role in everyday functioning of our nervous system and body.

But from that very cool paper you referenced, isn't the opposite stated, in one sense?

It seems more probable that the endogenous hallucinogens endogenous role mimics their subjective effects at the higher administered concentrations; that is they act as true endogenous hallucinogens playing a role in sensory perception and experience via a subclass of TA receptors.

I'm probably misunderstanding some part of that; but it does suggest - to me - a sort of inverse corollary: that our normal experience of reality (that is, thru sensory perception, in which these neurotransmitters play a role) is a function - at least in part - of the endogenous tryptamines, acting on these TAARs - and that it is no more or less an accurate perception of reality than when such tryptamines are smoked or sniffed or injected.

Additionally their natural biological effects are also likely not to be like tripping as they are likely to be released at specific locations, in specific amounts at specific times. Thus this controlled release effect may result in very different effects then when administered hallucinogens are taken.

I understood that part, I think! So then: dreams aren't psychedelic - in the same way as a trip - because they are a kind of post-processing and rehash of "remnants of the day" (or recollections of same); and - as such - comprise the conjunctive effects of various brain complexes, one of which may be endogenous hallucinogens acting on one or more trace amine receptor group(s). But - in a spice journey - the same receptors are heavily and singularly acted upon without the brain's entire sensory perception system acting in concert and according to the ordinary script. And so the images and the editing and the underscoring and the "jewelled, self-transforming basketballs" must be generated from some other source(s). Do these parts of the trip experience then, come from within the drug (ie - the DMT)? From some innate - and thus common - brain "module" firing off, having been triggered by the drug?

Are the elves inside the crystals? Or are the actors and the set pieces always there, but one has to close (or at least, squint) the majority of one's inner eyes to see 'em?

Like Steven Wright said "I was a peripheral visionary. I could see into the future...but only way off to the side"

 

[bufoman]

So then when these compounds are administered they act indiscriminately and thus cause intense psychedelic effects via TAAR and 5-HT receptors. The endogenous HA activity is highly controlled and thus this gives rise to normal everyday waking experience. If this activity is altered psychosis or altered states arise which may be more similar to a psychedelic experience as the release is no longer controlled and modulated. Thus the endogenous role is likely to be involved in sensory perception because at the higher levels when HA are acting through the TAAR receptors they act to create novel sensory perceptions (visuals). These sensory effects come about at relatively higher levels where significant levels of TAAR are likely to be activated. At lower levels 5-HT sites are active. This has to do with the relative numbers of 5-HT to TAAR sites. 5-HT sites far out number TAAR sites, thus higher doses of HA are needed to activate a significant response via TAARs.

I think the complex effects come from DMT acting on specific regions of the brain involved in higher level sensory processing. The effects are surely a combination of 5-HT, TAAR, and possibly other unknown sites. Dreams are a normal physiological process and thus what ever dreams are made up of must be similaur to what waking consciousness is made up of. There are of course differences but the circuitry/processes are likely to be the same. Thus the endogenous HA are likely involved in both waking reality and dreaming reality. Both involve controlled forms of HA release and thus are different then tripping.