dreams - who's talking me or them - not sure

[Hyperspace Fool]

Can i ask you something HyperspaceFool???...How long were you trying to become lucid before it became somewhat easy for you???

I have lucid dreamed as long as I can remember. I did it frequently as a young child, and while there were times my memory wasn't so sharp about it (coinciding usually with super heavy cannabis usage), I never stopped.

After studying Kung Fu for many, many years, my Sifu informed me that dreamwork was considered one of the highest arts of Kung Fu. Kung Fu is actually a lifelong practice and includes things that are rarely if ever taught in western "sport oriented" schools. We had to learn herbology, acupressure massage, taoist sexual yoga, and even caligraphy in addition to the more common things like chi kung, shen kung, nei gung and more. Fighting was actually barely a consideration.

I was already a fairly advanced dreamer when Sifu began to share some secrets with me. He was able to do phenomenal things, and pushed me to go even farther than I had before.

I generally go lucid 5-10 times or more every night... that I can remember. This amounts to perhaps a third of my oneirological journeying. Though to be honest, some dream segments seem to stretch on for days, weeks, or more... and lucidity is a spectrum where one is never completely unconscious, nor is one ever completely lucid.

I am sure I dream more (and go lucid more) than that, even. I would guess that my dream recall, though quite good, still amounts to a paltry percentage of my actual dreaming. I think this statistic is even more extreme for people who aren't so involved with their dreaming. I believe that everyone lucid dreams every night. Remembering is the key here.

You said you have had a handful of lucid dreams that you remember. In my mind, that means you have probably gone lucid 50 times for every time you remember. That is if you even have 2% dream recall. As you mentioned, you had a significant lucid dream that you didn't remember for a week or so.

Anyway, dmtk2852's tips are all good. The site he linked to seems very cool as well. There are a number of threads here on the Nexus where we've talked this subject out in further detail. I suggest you search for the term lucid dream here and check those out as well.

I have mentioned it before, but How To Trick Your Body Into Falling Asleep To Have Your First OBEs And Lucid Dreams In The Minimum Amount Of Time gives away a very comprehensive beginner > intermediate dream course for free. In fact, his lucidology 101 goes further than most people's entire knowledge of the subject and then some. He deals with WILDing, sleep paralysis, OOBEs and more. Here is the youtube channel with 10 lessons up: http://www.youtube.com/user/LucidDreamTricks

Last thing. Maintaining lucidity is like walking a tightrope. On your left is the abyss of unconsciousness which will suck you back into normal dreaming if you don't maintain your awareness and interest. On your right is waking up, which will happen if you get too excited. The key is to maintain that fine balance of relaxed but keen interest. It takes practice, and it is harder than balancing on a bicycle (which wasn't easy at first either, if you remember).

But, it is infinitely more rewarding.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Sure there isn't proof that it can't happen or never happens. But in science the one making the extraordinary claim has to provide the evidence.
I don't believe in shared dreaming or shared trips because I have no reason to. I don't need evidence to disprove that claim because it is extraordinary and there is no evidence for it. Therefore I suspend belief. Do you see my point?

Well my friend, you will notice that I made it clear that I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.

I could care less if you believe what I said. In fact, I would be shocked and dismayed if you took anything that anyone said to you at face value. Luckily lucid dreaming is not a faith based endeavor.

As an experientialist, my only burden of proof was to myself, and my pleathora of confirmed shared dreams has already long since done that for me.

I make no claim at being a scientist, and my claims are not any more extraordinary than the wild claims that science is based on. There is no proof to back up any materialist philosophy whatsoever. Scientific materialism is not more logical than any of the other philosophic stances. In fact, it stands on very shaky logical ground due to its reliance on inductive reasoning. I talk about this in depth on this post: A pragmatic approach: What is "real", and when is it actually useful to ask this? - Philosophy - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus so I won't repeat myself here.

Since you seem to be a person with more than average lucid dreaming abilities, it is likely that you can test the theory of mutually shared dreamspaces out for yourself at some point... should you have interest. You may be lucky enough to have someone you know confirm a shared dream if you get in the habit of discussing dreams with people you know.

Also, you can encounter beings who will prove to you that they are not your projections if you seek them out. Try teleporting out of your self-created playgrounds, and finding some ascended dream masters. Ask them some questions you don't know anything about, that can be confirmed when you awake. If you are respectful and sincere, they will be happy to give you the proof you need.

Obviously, this will never be enough to prove yourself to other people. But most of the things that we think of as "real" in this world are not provable. There is no proof that you are not at this moment dreaming.

 

[dmtk2852]

Sure there isn't proof that it can't happen or never happens. But in science the one making the extraordinary claim has to provide the evidence.
I don't believe in shared dreaming or shared trips because I have no reason to. I don't need evidence to disprove that claim because it is extraordinary and there is no evidence for it. Therefore I suspend belief. Do you see my point?

Well my friend, you will notice that I made it clear that I am not trying to prove anything to anyone.

I could care less if you believe what I said. In fact, I would be shocked and dismayed if you took anything that anyone said to you at face value. Luckily lucid dreaming is not a faith based endeavor.

As an experientialist, my only burden of proof was to myself, and my pleathora of confirmed shared dreams has already long since done that for me.

I make no claim at being a scientist, and my claims are not any more extraordinary than the wild claims that science is based on. There is no proof to back up any materialist philosophy whatsoever. Scientific materialism is not more logical than any of the other philosophic stances. In fact, it stands on very shaky logical ground due to its reliance on inductive reasoning. I talk about this in depth on this post: A pragmatic approach: What is "real", and when is it actually useful to ask this? - Philosophy - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus so I won't repeat myself here.

Since you seem to be a person with more than average lucid dreaming abilities, it is likely that you can test the theory of mutually shared dreamspaces out for yourself at some point... should you have interest. You may be lucky enough to have someone you know confirm a shared dream if you get in the habit of discussing dreams with people you know.

Also, you can encounter beings who will prove to you that they are not your projections if you seek them out. Try teleporting out of your self-created playgrounds, and finding some ascended dream masters. Ask them some questions you don't know anything about, that can be confirmed when you awake. If you are respectful and sincere, they will be happy to give you the proof you need.

Obviously, this will never be enough to prove yourself to other people. But most of the things that we think of as "real" in this world are not provable. There is no proof that you are not at this moment dreaming.

I can see you're well-versed in the art of debate sir, so I'm not going to argue here.
I will however take to heart you adivce about seeking out some dream masters, expanding my knowledge on dreaming. I wouldn't say its impossible to have a shared dream, just unlikely.

 

[SimplePsyman]

I have mentioned it before, but How To Trick Your Body Into Falling Asleep To Have Your First OBEs And Lucid Dreams In The Minimum Amount Of Time gives away a very comprehensive beginner > intermediate dream course for free. In fact, his lucidology 101 goes further than most people's entire knowledge of the subject and then some. He deals with WILDing, sleep paralysis, OOBEs and more. Here is the youtube channel with 10 lessons up: http://www.youtube.com/user/LucidDreamTricks

Hello Hyperspace...Thank you very much for the links they should be very useful and I know that with much practice I too will be able to LD alot more frequently and more importantly remember when I do so....

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

i've had friends in dreams many times, yet no shared dreams
i had a lucid dream last night, with friends in it
at one point they didn't want to get into this water...
i told them, don't worry it is just a dream
they seemed to think about it and then got into the water
after some time i got bored and flew around a dream city interacting with various people

i have had OBEs and shared hallucinations
lucid dreams often,
but shared dreams... not yet
i am open minded to them not existing as much as i am to them existing
i want to see more documentation or have a first hand experience

lucid dreaming seems kind of trivial to me, half the time i have them i would rather just have a normal dream

it is rare that i have a dream that i think is real, i always seem to know i am dreaming
dreams in my experience are so unreal, when i was little they seemed real but now that i can do anything in them, fly, teleport, fight, etc they don't seem real at all, in my dreams even when i have friends in them they are a dream version of my friends, not my friends at all in terms of knowledge or personality, sort of like a simple version of my perception of them

one of the most interesting things in my dreams lately are the melodies, like Icaros, music in my dream, consistent melodies i have not heard anywhere outside of my dreams, my dream last night had such a melody

i find the music very compelling, but lucid dreaming seems kind of boring to me
i would rather not dream at all than have a lucid dream

 

[tobecomeone00]

I believe when one dreams, it is consciousness inhabiting any and every part of itself...I've had strange dreams, one in particular of a man at a beach, swinging an axe by the shore...all at once, I was the man, the axe, and the ocean tide...I could feel myself as bubbles and froth, I could feel myself as smooth polished wood, and as a sharpened egde of blade...I could feel my forearms flexing as the man, swinging at nothing...When the form sleeps, God dreams...

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

i've had friends in dreams many times, yet no shared dreams

That you can remember and have been able to confirm with said friends.

i have had OBEs and shared hallucinations
lucid dreams often,

How do you explain such phenomena?

i am open minded to them not existing as much as i am to them existing
i want to see more documentation or have a first hand experience

While documentation will be difficult to achieve, and all such tales are anecdotal... maybe you will have your first hand experience one day.

lucid dreaming seems kind of trivial to me, half the time i have them i would rather just have a normal dream

it is rare that i have a dream that i think is real, i always seem to know i am dreaming
dreams in my experience are so unreal, when i was little they seemed real but now that i can do anything in them, fly, teleport, fight, etc they don't seem real at all, in my dreams even when i have friends in them they are a dream version of my friends, not my friends at all in terms of knowledge or personality, sort of like a simple version of my perception of them

one of the most interesting things in my dreams lately are the melodies, like Icaros, music in my dream, consistent melodies i have not heard anywhere outside of my dreams, my dream last night had such a melody

i find the music very compelling, but lucid dreaming seems kind of boring to me
i would rather not dream at all than have a lucid dream

I have heard this a lot, but generally only from people who have never progressed through the higher gates of dreaming. Recognizing that you are dreaming is only the inkling of the potential to actually lucid dream.

I humbly suggest you use your lucidity to leave your personal dream world and go past dream masturbation. Try teleporting to a consensual reality or finding true dream masters. This might just rock your world.

There are an infinite number of dreamworlds possible. Staying in your subconscious created playgrounds just because that is where you happened to be when you became lucid, and then determining that lucid dreaming is boring... is like opening up an internet browser to a blank page and determining that the internet is boring without having even tried surfing.

To say you would rather not dream at all than have a lucid dream seems shocking to me. It makes me question what would actually be exciting to you. Considering that anything you could do in your waking life could also be done while dreaming... how is it that normal life holds any interest for you?

I mean dreamtime has sex, drugs & rock 'n' roll as well. Open air concerts on a cloud on a moon surrounding a ringed gas giant with Jimi Hendrix jamming with Jerry Garcia might be a lot of things... boring is not one of them. You did say you enjoyed the music, did you not?

Perhaps it is just your mindstate in thinking that "it is not real, so it holds no value" that sucks the joy out of it. Or perhaps your dreams are not sufficiently realistic to give you thrills? Flying is such a joy that people spend a good portion of their free time to practice sports like hang gliding, paragliding and skydiving. None of those people would consider their sport boring... I can fly faster than the speed of light, fly underwater, fly through the centers of stars and more... all quite tangible and realistic.

Whether or not such things are useful can be debated. Whether they are more fun than all of the roller coasters I have ever ridden put together... can not.

For me, the ability to dilate time alone makes dreaming immensely interesting. The ability to have experiences that seem to take days or even years in the course of a single dream means, in effect, that one can subjectively increase a 100 year lifespan to many thousands of years worth of experience. To me, going to a job you hate, sitting in traffic jams, getting sick and dying of old age with only a handful of truly amazing experiences under your belt seems awfully boring.

That's just me though.

 

[Infectedstyle]

Hey Hyperspace Fool. I heared many stories about lucid dreaming. To me, there's no denying that shared dreaming is possible. There's just to many stories about it. There was one person who came up with so many things to do in a lucid dream. And he had so many stories it's like he has been dreaming for over a 100 years. He claimed to stay there for years and lost almost all sense of who he is when he got back to consensus reality. I'm skeptical by nature tho, but i trust you. Can you tell me more about time dilation in dreams? I've had one dream within a dream that lasted for 2 days in a 1 hour timespan. It was not lucid tho, it just happened. I'd love to hear ur experiences with this highly interesting phenomenon if you want to share.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Hey Hyperspace Fool. I heared many stories about lucid dreaming. To me, there's no denying that shared dreaming is possible. There's just to many stories about it. There was one person who came up with so many things to do in a lucid dream. And he had so many stories it's like he has been dreaming for over a 100 years. He claimed to stay there for years and lost almost all sense of who he is when he got back to consensus reality. I'm skeptical by nature tho, but i trust you. Can you tell me more about time dilation in dreams? I've had one dream within a dream that lasted for 2 days in a 1 hour timespan. It was not lucid tho, it just happened. I'd love to hear ur experiences with this highly interesting phenomenon if you want to share.

Time dilation seems to be a basic element of all dreaming. Just hit snooze on your alarm clock and see how long your dreams seem to last in that 10 minute period!

The ratio of dreamtime to real time seems variable. It can go from hours = minutes to years or lifetimes...

It is possible to experience a phenomenal amount in dreams. Often it seems we even have parallel lives running in other places... other stable realities where we continue to go back and have experiences. Some of these recurring dreams go on for years or decades. I still sometimes visit places I frequented as a young child.

No amount of words can really describe lucid dreaming (or DMT for that matter), and while I am honored that you find me trustworthy, I would recommend against trust or faith and instead encourage people to find their own direct experiences. If you have enough interest, you should be able to have (and remember) some lucid dreams of your own in relatively short order.

Decades ago when I would talk about lucid dreaming to people, many of them were skeptical. A lot of them thought I was full of shit until enough books and popular media began addressing the subject. Some of my most ardent critics have since gone on to become somewhat proficient dreamers, and I tease them about the shit they used to give me. The same is true about explaining spice experiences... or any experience that falls far enough outside the realm of someone's comfort zones or experiences.

It never bothers me when people doubt my experiences (I would be surprised if they didn't)... and likewise, I get no major thrill when their experiences lead them to come around to my way of seeing things. It is the same with scuba diving or skydiving. The incomprehension and skepticism of my colleagues plays no part in my enjoyment of the activity. I know it is real. When they get around to enjoying it for themselves, I am happy for them... but if they never get to experience it, it is no sweat off my nose.

 

[dmtk2852]

I have heard this a lot, but generally only from people who have never progressed through the higher gates of dreaming. Recognizing that you are dreaming is only the inkling of the potential to actually lucid dream.

I humbly suggest you use your lucidity to leave your personal dream world and go past dream masturbation. Try teleporting to a consensual reality or finding true dream masters. This might just rock your world.

There are an infinite number of dreamworlds possible. Staying in your subconscious created playgrounds just because that is where you happened to be when you became lucid, and then determining that lucid dreaming is boring... is like opening up an internet browser to a blank page and determining that the internet is boring without having even tried surfing.

To say you would rather not dream at all than have a lucid dream seems shocking to me. It makes me question what would actually be exciting to you. Considering that anything you could do in your waking life could also be done while dreaming... how is it that normal life holds any interest for you?

I mean dreamtime has sex, drugs & rock 'n' roll as well. Open air concerts on a cloud on a moon surrounding a ringed gas giant with Jimi Hendrix jamming with Jerry Garcia might be a lot of things... boring is not one of them. You did say you enjoyed the music, did you not?

Perhaps it is just your mindstate in thinking that "it is not real, so it holds no value" that sucks the joy out of it. Or perhaps your dreams are not sufficiently realistic to give you thrills? Flying is such a joy that people spend a good portion of their free time to practice sports like hang gliding, paragliding and skydiving. None of those people would consider their sport boring... I can fly faster than the speed of light, fly underwater, fly through the centers of stars and more... all quite tangible and realistic.

Whether or not such things are useful can be debated. Whether they are more fun than all of the roller coasters I have ever ridden put together... can not.

For me, the ability to dilate time alone makes dreaming immensely interesting. The ability to have experiences that seem to take days or even years in the course of a single dream means, in effect, that one can subjectively increase a 100 year lifespan to many thousands of years worth of experience. To me, going to a job you hate, sitting in traffic jams, getting sick and dying of old age with only a handful of truly amazing experiences under your belt seems awfully boring.

That's just me though.

Ok HyperspaceFool, you've won me. You've rekindled my passion of this type of dreaming, its been a long time since I recorded my dreams but I'm going to reopen my dream journal. I realize I had only begun to explore this type of dreaming when I first started actually reading about it, but I'm trained enough to go deeper, and I'm willing to learn a lot more.
:idea:

 

[Pony On A Rainbow]

I've always had a question about lucid dreaming. Are we really controlling the dream or are we dreaming that we are controlling the dream?
I still haven't found an answer to that my friends.

 

[SpartanII]

I've always had a question about lucid dreaming. Are we really controlling the dream or are we dreaming that we are controlling the dream?
I still haven't found an answer to that my friends.

Actually we are dreaming that we are dreaming that we are controlling our dreams. lol:d

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I've always had a question about lucid dreaming. Are we really controlling the dream or are we dreaming that we are controlling the dream?
I still haven't found an answer to that my friends.

Actually we are dreaming that we are dreaming that we are controlling our dreams. lol:d

Lol

:roll:

It is actually saying the same thing. You are dreaming. You are controlling it. You are dreaming that you are controlling it. etc. etc. It makes no difference whatsoever how you phrase it.

The fact is, that your will is expressed in your dream. The more skill you develop, the more you can control, and the easier it is to do so.

This is not something that will even be in question once you become really lucid.

You shape your intention, will it, and it happens in a direct causal chain of effect. I have more doubt that I am controlling my computer than I do my lucid dreams.

 

[fractalic]

thanx for all that info, i sometimes have lucid dreams, but i wish to learn how to get into that state more often, i believe it can have a great healing impact on ones life.
i once had a lucid dream that seemed to cure me of a physical sickness condition. what kind of impact do you feel these lucide dreams made over your life?

also, i'm wondering if anybody had some dreams in which he could see into the future? i had 2 wired experiences i can recall.

in one of them i was lost in a labyrinth until i got to a room where i saw a face full of blood and a dead Chameleon .i woke up horrified thinking that something terrible had happened to a friend of mine (i used to call him a Chameleon ). few hours later this friend came by my house telling me he met a new girl and that he had fell in love. he looked happier than ever.
exactly a weak later he came to my house in the early morning, and i woke up to see him standing in front of me with his face full of blood (like in my dream). apparently he smashed a glass into his forehead during a fight he had with his girlfriend. this was one of the first schizophrenic attacks he had since than.
sadly,it seems to be no way for me to know when my dreams are telling something about the future, and when it just a pile of mental crap....

 

[dmtk2852]

thanx for all that info, i sometimes have lucid dreams, but i wish to learn how to get into that state more often, i believe it can have a great healing impact on ones life.
i once had a lucid dream that seemed to cure me of a physical sickness condition. what kind of impact do you feel these lucide dreams made over your life?

also, i'm wondering if anybody had some dreams in which he could see into the future? i had 2 wired experiences i can recall.

in one of them i was lost in a labyrinth until i got to a room where i saw a face full of blood and a dead Chameleon .i woke up horrified thinking that something terrible had happened to a friend of mine (i used to call him a Chameleon ). few hours later this friend came by my house telling me he met a new girl and that he had fell in love. he looked happier than ever.
exactly a weak later he came to my house in the early morning, and i woke up to see him standing in front of me with his face full of blood (like in my dream). apparently he smashed a glass into his forehead during a fight he had with his girlfriend. this was one of the first schizophrenic attacks he had since than.
sadly,it seems to be no way for me to know when my dreams are telling something about the future, and when it just a pile of mental crap....

Personally I believe dreams can be interpreted so many different ways that its impossible to not have elements appear in your life, including past, present and future. I also believe the brain is really good at picking up patterns, even when they may not be there. Therefore its entirely possible that it was a coincidence. Also you may see something in a dream and be more likely to influence things to happen to match that dream.
As for lucid dreaming I think the benefits are mental, you can experience parts of your subconcious that may not be available to you when you're awake. Its also really fun, you can live your entire life's fantasies in one dream. I don't believe they have any physical benefits aside from that on health though.

 

[Pony On A Rainbow]

I've always had a question about lucid dreaming. Are we really controlling the dream or are we dreaming that we are controlling the dream?
I still haven't found an answer to that my friends.

Actually we are dreaming that we are dreaming that we are controlling our dreams. lol:d

Lol

:roll:

It is actually saying the same thing. You are dreaming. You are controlling it. You are dreaming that you are controlling it. etc. etc. It makes no difference whatsoever how you phrase it.

The fact is, that your will is expressed in your dream. The more skill you develop, the more you can control, and the easier it is to do so.

This is not something that will even be in question once you become really lucid.

You shape your intention, will it, and it happens in a direct causal chain of effect. I have more doubt that I am controlling my computer than I do my lucid dreams.

I still am not confident whether i have control or not. It's like your really into this movie and for that moment you actually believed you were the main protagonist(kicking and screaming).
We can dream about almost anything imaginable. I can remember dreaming that i was having a psychedelic experience and i saw this weird visions of unexplained beings. So why can't we dream about us having a lucid dreams? It's like a layer inside a layer.
Maybe i just confused myself on something that didn't make sense. lol

Keep dreaming brothers! :d

 

[Global]

Maybe slightly off topic, but I feel inclined to share:

Over the past year or so, I've been having dreams where I end up somehow back in the old house where I grew up. The other day, I was dreaming I was there and it was so incredibly real, and I even had this thought that "well I'm here now...for some reason....and I'm gonna enjoy it. I've had so many dreams about being here, and now I'm actually here". I had even thought to myself that I usually only get here in dreams, but it was so real that I somehow completely overlooked the possibility that I was dreaming at that instant. I'm not sure what has to hit me in the face for me to realize I'm dreaming.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

i once had a lucid dream that seemed to cure me of a physical sickness condition. what kind of impact do you feel these lucide dreams made over your life?

also, i'm wondering if anybody had some dreams in which he could see into the future? i had 2 wired experiences i can recall.

Dreams can affect the body quite well. I can practice hours of kung fu in a dream and wake up to find that my muscle memory has absorbed the practice.

The CNS doesn't distinguish between dream stimuli and "real" stimuli. If it wasn't for sleep paralysis, everyone would be sleep walkers.

Don't believe me? Google "wet dream."

****

As for precognitive dreams... I will just say that I have had them. I don't want to defend the possibility of such things, or convince anyone, so I will leave it at that. Not sure why science types have such a hard time accepting that we might be able to access 5th dimensional potential timelines and see things that could actually come to pass. I wouldn't bet the farm on any vision, though, as we can easily chose to go down other paths and never end up in the "future" we perceived.

I still am not confident whether i have control or not. It's like your really into this movie and for that moment you actually believed you were the main protagonist(kicking and screaming).
We can dream about almost anything imaginable. I can remember dreaming that i was having a psychedelic experience and i saw this weird visions of unexplained beings. So why can't we dream about us having a lucid dreams? It's like a layer inside a layer.
Maybe i just confused myself on something that didn't make sense. lol

If you are not confident, you probably are only very shallowly lucid. There are levels of lucidity where doubts about your ability to control the dream are utterly dispelled.

Sure you can dream anything you can imagine. Sure you can take drugs in a dream... or just will yourself to feel as if you did. Dreams within dreams are actually fairly common. The key is only A) Do you know that you are dreaming? B) When you will to do something random and not part of the current dream, are you able to manifest it? C) Can you do this repeatedly with confidence?

I'm not sure what has to hit me in the face for me to realize I'm dreaming.

Dreams are designed to be convincing. They cast a strong spell over your consciousness, and can even fool you scant minutes or seconds after becoming lucid into believing them once again.

Fret not. The fact that you had that dream experience is an indication that you are close. Perhaps next time you find yourself there, you will go full-on lucid.


*@*@*@*@@**@@*@*@*@*

Be well friends.