Drying mushrooms with desiccant, at least 30% potency loss

[downwardsfromzero]

So, were you pre-drying your mushrooms before putting them with the desiccant? It looks as though you might have been, I just don't see (or haven't seen) where you've explicitly stated this. This seems like one of those "too obvious" questions that no-one else asks - do forgive me!


I've used normal, retail calcium chloride - similar to the one you've pictured - as a desiccant for years. !!However, before placing the mushrooms in the tub with the desiccant, they will have been dried for maybe 24hrs with an airflow desiccator, like Northerner suggested. The mushrooms remain sealed in the tub atop the calcium chloride for between a few days to a few years - separated from direct contact with the desiccant with a couple of sheets of greaseproof paper.

While I haven't shown the dedication to ongoing comparison of mushroom potency that you have, my experiences have shown nonetheless that they remain amply potent. This comes with the caveat that the species concerned were (mostly, in order of frequency) P. semilanceata (wild), P. cyanescens (feral and cultivated) and P. ovoideocystidiata (cultivated) [this last one being quite phenomenal in its power to the extent that I considered embarking on a full legal process to complete an interspecies marriage between myself and the mushroom. Perhaps one day, in one of your churches?] P. sem and P. ovo at least show a lasting preponderance of the phosphorylated alkaloids which is considered to confer better air stability.

Anyhow, I digress somewhat. Silica gel I've used, as the little pouches one finds enclosed with various items of commerce, to place in jars of already desiccated mushrooms so that there is minimal chance of mould formation during storage. I suspect you already considered silica gel as potentially advantageous because it can be regenerated indefinitely. With that use case it's best to include at least some of the cobalt chloride doped material which turns from dark blue to pink once the silica has reached its capacity for water vapour adsorption.

I prefer alu foil.

What gets limited here - although I can see the benefits of alu foil - is airflow, airflow, airflow!

I built my own airflow desiccator (as I have said before in various places) at minimal cost using a bucket, a computer fan and a low-wattage light bulb, plus whatever bits of mesh could be found. Pan splatter guards are pretty good. To protect sensitive material from excessive light, some kind of opaque, heat resistant material can be used. I used a pyrex bowl (not transparent, obviously!) It was a fun project which lends itself to further adaptations and improvements.

What I thought is similar. The cell membrane gets damaged, and the oxidation might kick in.

Similar but different. I certainly get what you're saying and it would be a worthwhile scientific experiment to compare degradation of mushroom material subjected to differing degrees of drying/desiccation. One nuance of your hypothesis would be that the strongly desiccated material, either spontaneously or during the powdering process, undergoes increased oxidation of the psilocin/baeocin™/norbaeocin™ because of cell wall destruction through increased brittleness of the dehydrated chitin.

Just to make it clear for all readers, my hypothesis was that dehydrated chitin (or other cellular material) undergoes a structural change that makes it harder for the actives subsequently to be extracted from the intracellular space. A comparison of yields obtained using ultrasonic extraction would at least be a first step towards understanding what effect you may have noticed here.

 

[dragonrider]

Does anybody think it is conceivable that a powerfull dessicant could suck-up a significant portion of alkaloids along with the water?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Does anybody think it is conceivable that a powerfull dessicant could suck-up a significant portion of alkaloids along with the water?

Only if one were to pack fully wet mushrooms into (perhaps to a lesser extent, onto) the desiccant material. Otherwise, desiccant won't act like a magic psilocybin magnet. The steps I outlined in my previous post (pre-drying, avoid contact between mushrooms and desiccant) are in order to avoid this possibility, for one thing.

 

[Anonymous2]

So, were you pre-drying your mushrooms before putting them with the desiccant? It looks as though you might have been, I just don't see (or haven't seen) where you've explicitly stated this. This seems like one of those "too obvious" questions that no-one else asks - do forgive me!

From the OP:

"Two weeks ago, I bought a “scuba box” in which I put three jars of “naturally” dried B+ (MS), GT."

[...]

"Sadly, I ruined about 200-400g dried mushrooms."

Just to make it clear for all readers, my hypothesis was that dehydrated chitin (or other cellular material) undergoes a structural change that makes it harder for the actives subsequently to be extracted from the intracellular space.

Your theory makes sense, and it was clear to me.

My version is that under a certain RH, something gets damaged, which makes some of the active components damaged too.

If one of our theories is correct, it’s possible that a lot of people used desiccant without any problem. The reason might be similar to what I wrote about drying with heat.

If the active component(s) get damaged only under a certain RH level, you can put the mushroom together with desiccant for, let’s say, one week, without damaging it, while three weeks would damage it.

If I didn’t put 4 hygrometers in the jars and the box, I would have never thought that after three weeks, the RH was still around 10-20%, and I wouldn’t have left it there for three weeks in the first place.

Let me underline the three weeks' desiccant process started with mushrooms I already dried on air as much as it gets.

 

[Anonymous2]

Does anybody think it is conceivable that a powerfull dessicant could suck-up a significant portion of alkaloids along with the water?

I find it more likely that under certain RH, the cells break, and oxygen gets in touch with the active components.

Considering how much water was still in the already dried-on-air mushrooms, I could even consider that the active components in "dried" mushrooms, before the extreme drying, are not in a solid form but (at least partially) solved.

I mean, even three weeks with desiccant didn’t make them dry, starting from "dry" (dried on air). Just think of it how much water it could still have been in them if spending three weeks with 1kg desiccant wasn’t enough to reach 0% RH.

Also, when you remove water from certain (non-alkaloid) crystals, such as CuSO4·5H2O (the natural form of CuSO4), the hard blue crystals fall apart into a white powder. That’s why downwardsfromzero’s idea about the damaged chitin makes a lot of sense to me.

Removing much water might expose the ingredients to air that normally are protected in less-extremely-dried mushrooms.

What happened was not an experiment but a misfortunate event. When I’ll have "too much" mushrooms, I might do a real experiment to figure it out if it really happens. I will use the same mushrooms split into two piles and desiccant-dry only one pile of it.

 

[Anonymous2]

Tonight will be my first time with Amazonian.

They are the first tiny fruits from a suboptimal growth hence I don’t know anything about their potency. They might still be a little too wet. That’s why I put a bold 2.1g in the tea.

Let’s see what the depth of the jungle is hiding.

Two days ago, I took 3g of the weak (desiccant-dried) GT powder that gave me a pleasant light-medium trip. So, the comparison will be fair, except for I have no idea how strong the my Amazonian mushrooms are. They can’t be way more potent than the B+ though.

 

[Anonymous2]

I prefer alu foil.

What gets limited here - although I can see the benefits of alu foil - is airflow, airflow, airflow!

Paper is better for drying as it sucks up water from the bottom and helps it evaporate faster.

The advantages of the alu foil are that the mushrooms get stuck to it less, and they are reusable, hence I don’t need to re-label them.

Maybe I should have used stronger paper. My Chinese Zodiac is in the metal element.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

↑↑Seems you're right about people's general reading abilities, I had a feeling I was being lazy (really I'm just easily distracted) so thanks for the clarification about pre-drying.

I've used alu foil for spore prints as it's really easy to clean with alcohol, non-hygroscopic, fairly strong, non-brittle (unlike glass), and convenient to cut and fold.

Here's an anecdote about drying mushrooms on paper: a friend had dried some liberty caps on some cartridge paper, a blank page out of her art book. Afterwards, when comparing with another blank page from the same art book we could tell the one that had had the mushrooms on it by the "vibrations" it gave through our fingertips - kind of like an electrical buzz.

If I didn’t put 4 hygrometers in the jars and the box, I would have never thought that after three weeks, the RH was still around 10-20%, and I wouldn’t have left it there for three weeks in the first place.

What you say here highlights two things. Firstly that something or things in mushrooms is/are hygroscopic in a somewhat bizarre way. Secondly that calcium chloride seems to be a pretty lame desiccant, overall.

 

[Anonymous2]

Trip Log - Welcome discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[Anonymous2]

↑↑Seems you're right about people's general reading abilities, I had a feeling I was being lazy (really I'm just easily distracted) so thanks for the clarification about pre-drying.

Sometimes I find myself reading only the first sentence of each paragraph of an article, and even writing a comment to it.

When I decided to allow the mushrooms enter my life, I downloaded five or six tutorials that were webpages. I converted them to PDF documents. I removed all the noise and unrelated garbage and external links to make the files as neat as possible - and I’ve never read any of them. I looked only for the recommended ratios of the materials.

Then, I was wondering why some of my PF cakes turned to green, while the vast majority of them were consistent - they became either blue or purple.

There are excellent books about how the brain works. I don’t believe anymore that the brain exists but the imaginary behavior of the imaginary brain can be described (using imaginary words).

It’s about trial and error coming from animals.

One of the books I found great was "Don’t make me think". Although it’s about UI design, it tells you a lot of interesting things about how people behave and why.

I've used alu foil for spore prints as it's really easy to clean with alcohol, non-hygroscopic, fairly strong, non-brittle (unlike glass), and convenient to cut and fold.

Exactly.

If there is something you cannot do with duck tape, you can do it with alu foil.

(Proven by NASA)

Here's an anecdote about drying mushrooms on paper: a friend had dried some liberty caps on some cartridge paper, a blank page out of her art book. Afterwards, when comparing with another blank page from the same art book we could tell the one that had had the mushrooms on it by the "vibrations" it gave through our fingertips - kind of like an electrical buzz.

Your friend’s story reminds me of Ganesha. At least the part he/she tore out a page of an artbook. Many years ago, someone explained it to me that Ganesha was writing the story of war and used up his pen. He didn’t want to stop writing hence he broke his tusk and and used it as a pen.

The story shocked me. "How could a god, who is immortal, hurt himself and cause permanent damage, only to continue writing?", I asked her. "And how could someone admire such a god?", I asked myself. "And how could I date such person?", I asked no one. Then I thought I understood why our relationship wasn’t working.

(I’m not criticizing your friend but describing my relationship with the idea of decay.)

What you say here highlights two things. Firstly that something or things in mushrooms is/are hygroscopic in a somewhat bizarre way. Secondly that calcium chloride seems to be a pretty lame desiccant, overall.

Indeed. Even if the mushroom contained a lot of water, it must have been releasing it slowly as its mass wasn’t infinite. Yet the desiccant couldn’t catch up.

First I thought it happened because I put it into two additional layers of cleaning paper. Originally it’s in a white cloth bag. I was worried about the small particles as I didn’t even know the chemical. Removing the paper layers changed nothing.

Are you sure it was calcium chloride? I thought it was magnesium-sulfate with the usual traces of heavy metals the manufacturer was lazy to remove and lazy to describe.

 

[Anonymous2]

As many people talked about the prolonged effects of the mushrooms, let me tell you what I see.

When I smoke weed, which is what I do at most a few times a year, I experience the not-so-helpful effects of it for days. The next day, I avoid driving car as my motoric functions and reflexes suffer. Navigation and focus suffer. My work performance and motivation decrease, and I might experience lethargy. It’s better than how it used to be, and there are advantages, that’s while I do it once a while, but I think I shouldn’t buy it again, and I never did it often for prolonged periods. 2-3 g weed lasts for years for me.

At least one of my relationships was ruined by it. I didn’t mind it she did it every day, but she offered it to me as well, and even if I took it twice a week, it was a disaster.

Alcohol is much worse. Yet alcohol is legal almost everywhere, weed is getting legalized, and it’s considered a "light drug" even by people who should know it better such as my therapist whom I stopped visiting.

I had problems with addictions, but at least I knew it. I’ve never told myself it was good if it was bad. That’s why I stopped drinking years ago.

By the way, I wrote that long bitchy post at the beginning of the thread one or two days after my quarterly weed session. I’m not using it as an excuse. I’m not taking it back. I admit it was written in a bitchy way even compared to my regular behavior.

Mushrooms and pharma are the opposite of the above. I take it in the evening, I have a pleasant "crazy" trip, and the next day, I feel great. My mind is clear. I can focus, work, drive, communicate, and enjoy life. My motoric functions and reflexes get better than usual.

Anything can happen at any time for any reason. It makes little sense to solve non-existing problems especially when weed and alcohol cause real problems that one can notice in an instant. Yet the society considers them normal, or even healthy in "moderate amounts". When I buy a new type of ice-cream, I have to check whether it has alcohol in it or not, because they think it’s okay to put poison into my body.

I get it. When the demons or aliens come, it’s freaking scary. Yes, it is.

Although, if I compare it to paranoid weed sessions from the past when I thought the police were already on the way, and everyone was looking at me through the windows, the truth is the alien demons came magnitudes less often, and at least they look interesting. If I have to choose between the neighbors who are watching me and the aliens, I choose the aliens.

Regardless of what happens and what I see, the next day, I’m sober, creative, and feeling well. Anyone who believes they know it better than me how I am compared to how I should be is handicapped.

So, please stop spreading false information about the long-term effects of the mushrooms. It may apply to some. It’s not universal. It doesn’t help us make it legal.

At the same time, I’ve never met anyone who smoked weed on a regular basis, and I couldn’t tell it just by looking at how they put their key into the entry door of their apartment.

I’ve also met many people who refused to take any "drugs" (besides alcohol), and they decided to rather suffer.

It comes from a lie that "the human body is perfect as it is, it’s a miracle of nature, it’s self-healing, and you shouldn’t try to tune your own body or mind".

Anyone who believes in biology and evolution should know that based on the evolution theory, the human body (and more or less any biological body) is as bad is it can be while it still works.

The evolution did nothing for the benefits of the individual. It didn’t care.

And those who don’t believe in the evolution should already know it better.

 

[Anonymous2]

[YOUTUBE]

 

[doubledog]

I think your use of desiccant was quite inefficient and you let mushrooms to stay in humid conditions for too long.
In my experience, such treatment decrease potency of cubes by 20-30%.

 

[Anonymous2]

I think your use of desiccant was quite inefficient and you let mushrooms to stay in humid conditions for too long.
In my experience, such treatment decrease potency of cubes by 20-30%.

Are you saying 10-20% RH was too humid for my mushrooms, and they lost their potency compared to the mushrooms that spent the same time on the open air with 40-50% RH?

Did I get it right?

 

[doubledog]

Not really, I explain better my point.
I have once tried and experienced something similar, also with desiccant and found that normal air dried mushrooms in enclosed jar or even box could somewhat rehydrate a bit, it seems they make something like local "microclimate" in the jar.
These desiccants bags seemed to me very slow, I tried it also for some other plants.
Yes, in the end, they create dry environment, but it take some time. Using much more material is probably needed.

Maybe it is something else, I have never did any tests of shrooms (except eating them ), but never again used this kind of desicants bags.

 

[Anonymous2]

Not really, I explain better my point.
I have once tried and experienced something similar, also with desiccant and found that normal air dried mushrooms in enclosed jar or even box could somewhat rehydrate a bit, it seems they make something like local "microclimate" in the jar.

I know what you mean, and I’m glad you wrote it down. We might be getting closer to the answer.

A few days after I put the mushrooms in the jars, I opened the jars to touch them. They felt softer than how they were when I put them in the jars.

They also felt softer than how open-air-dried mushrooms feel in general.

It seemed so wrong that I questioned my senses. I thought it was a "psychosomatic" phenomenon. I touched the other mushrooms that were still exposed to open air. They seemed harder except for the latest harvests which made little sense.

The question is why they became softer, and what happened.

As I had the hygrometers next to the mushrooms, and they went to lower and lower RH, I can’t believe that the RH was higher than how much it was in the room, even for a moment. When I removed the mushrooms to test the desiccants as well as the hygrometers, they went below 0%.

Besides, they were already dried on air before they went into the jars.

It’s more likely that something (cell membrane) gets damaged at low RH, and something gets released. Maybe it’s not (only) water but some kind of fat that also can make the mushrooms feel softer than before. And maybe this is when some of the psychoactive components get destroyed.

I’m saying your observation was correct, and it’s great you mentioned it because I ignored it that they indeed felt softer for a while. Then I forgot about it.

I’m saying only that using stronger desiccant would unlikely improve the situation.

 

[doubledog]

You seem like a right person to test all these ideas.

I always considered this softening in the jar as rehydration.
Btw. the same is valid for cannabis (and also other plants), if stored in closed jars not fully dried, it becomes softer little bit. Thats why you have to open the jars after few days to not let develop mould. In case of cannabis, some humidity is desirable, in case of shrooms is not.
Open air dried mushrooms could seems dry, but they are often not.
I always considered in jar re-softened mushrooms as inferior and tried to avoid it.

Different explanation is still possible, these are mainly my conclusions, not facts.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yes back in my mushroom days I too found that dried mushrooms in a jar would sometimes become slightly soft and not as fully dehydrated as I thought they were. At the time I was using a food dehydrator set to the lowest temperature.

From my experience this was caused by the mushrooms not being as fully dehydrated as I thought. Sometimes when mushrooms are dehydrated they appear and feel as though they are completely cracker dry, but they are not. I think that the outside of the mushroom can seem fully dry, but there is still some moisture trapped deeper inside. In other words, they are not yet fully dry, even though they appear to be.

In this not-all-the-way-dried state the mushrooms can become soft and even moldy in the jar. And I think it must negatively affect the potency over time.

It is very important to make sure that the mushrooms are completely dried out before storing them in jars or baggies. Re-softening is a sign that they were not fully dried out to begin with, IMO.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

I love how this thread has gone from potential train wreck to really fascinating!

It seems to me that during the drying process the mushrooms perhaps can form a crust that give a false impression of full 'cracker dryness' while still having moisture trapped inside the cells. This crust would then serve to impede the further desiccation of the cells' interior and could indeed be part of a survival mechanism used by various fungi: Paul Stamets speaks of how seemingly completely dry tree stumps will sprout mushrooms surprisingly rapidly once rain comes, for example.

Are you sure it was calcium chloride? I thought it was magnesium-sulfate

https://www.wasklebtwas.de/datasheets/msds/en_msds_4026700470857_uhu_air_max_luftentfeuchter_nachfuellbeutel_1000g.pdf

According to the SDS it's calcium chloride.
On page 5 of the linked SDS we see:

Solvent content:
Water: 2.0 %

Broadly speaking, if your shrooms have already dried to 2% moisture or less, this particular desiccant will not be the most efficient way of drying them further - even if it's actually rather more complicated than that. [And it should be clear already that the percentage value here has nothing to do with the percentage value shown on a hygrometer.]

That last parenthetical statement brings me on to thinking about the hygrometers themselves. The mass of the sensing element in the hygrometer is much lower than the mass of mushroom material to be dried. Thus the hygrometer requires a much shorter drying time to bring the reading to zero in the absence of the mushrooms.

 

[dragonrider]

I love how this thread has gone from potential train wreck to really fascinating!

It seems to me that during the drying process the mushrooms perhaps can form a crust that give a false impression of full 'cracker dryness' while still having moisture trapped inside the cells. This crust would then serve to impede the further desiccation of the cells' interior and could indeed be part of a survival mechanism used by various fungi: Paul Stamets speaks of how seemingly completely dry tree stumps will sprout mushrooms surprisingly rapidly once rain comes, for example.

I have noticed this as well. For this reason, i always cut my shrooms into tiny pieces before drying them. If the pieces are small enough, this doesn't happen anymore.

I have never experienced a loss of potency with shrooms dried this way. But i have, however, experienced a surge in effects, about an hour after the first effects started to kick in.

So either, dried shrooms are harder to fully digest, and not all the goodies are being released at once. Or, during the proces of drying a lot of psilocin get's converted back to psilocybin, wich kicks in later than psilocin.