Earth

[xss27]

xss27, how do you handle the possibility that eternal hell is slowly approaching or might actually be closer than you might think. I do not want to scare you. Sorry if I do so, but I am just interested if this scenario ever came to your mind and how you handle such thoughts.

I don't place much stock in the idea of heaven and hell. There may be bardos or other dimensions that could have elements of the heaven and hell concept, but an outright eternal hell.. even if there were a hell it would not be eternal.

Nisargadattas work, or any of the other enlightened persons, is not going to answer your question the way you demand it be answered. It is all about trying to show you what you are not. Besides, location is relative - you, the subject, and ultimately the Absolute, are nowhere. There is nothing beside it so it can't be anywhere as there's nothing relative to it.. it is effectively dimensionless.

You're clinging to this idea of 'where you are' too much, or some part of you is. Ask yourself why.

 

[DmnStr8]

xrrv, would you say you have faith in all you are describing?

Sure everything has balance. I think that is something we can all jive with. Science points to this. Nature points to this. As for the rest, isn't it all just belief and faith.

I mean you can have enlightening experiences in your life that convince you that you found something worth sharing, like you found a piece of enlightenment. Do you really think that you can give this to someone else? In the end isn't everything you are saying been said before?

I feel putting that enlightenment to practice is where the rubber meets the road. Where the need to say it no longer matters because the squeeling of the tires drown out the noise. The ego takes a back seat and now the rest goes forward practicing and applying these personal truths and enlightenments.

It is like we have a need to believe in something and share it with everyone else. I wish I could share some of my memories in life in a way that you all could really see it, feel it, experience it. I wish I could share these time in my life when I feel like I have found something of true value. I can describe and articulate my memories and experiences down to the finest detail, No one is going to ever really have that experience. It is mine and mine alone. I can share with language. It then becomes limited and tainted with descriptions and breakdowns. Divided as soon as a word is muttered.


“Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure.”
― George Carlin

I am deeply afraid of being in eternal hell someday. I am afraid of the abyss in the universe. I do not want to find myself in a situation of intense suffering which I cannot escape because of predetermination. I want this abyss to be as far away as possible. Of course, I cannot have that if it is not so. That is why I want to know: "Where am I?". Do you have any idea how I can cope with that? If I could just look and find out...

Maybe you are already in the eternal hell? You are already experiencing it because it is already here and now you are becoming aware. Maybe you have been in it for a very long time and only now are waking up to it. This abyss is something you are already in. Falling... falling.. falling... Where are you? Falling into an enternal hell! Place yourself here first. Then learn to fly and heaven appears, the abyss and hell are but a memory, until once again you forget and fall back into another dream.

 

[dragonrider]

You say we cannot be free because of limited content. But if that is true, we even couldn't be free if our possibilities where infinite. Because if only our possibilities would be endless, we still wouldn't know each and everyone of them. Because that would require some kind of list or inventory of it, wich would contradict the idea of it being infinite.

So either the very word "freedom" refers to something that could not exist, ever, or you are using a very narrow interpretation of the word.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

In my day-to-day life, beauty and horror exist side by side and the bliss of my existence is harshly tempered by the constant physical pain I live with. Given the circumstances, I could choose to slide into a hell of my own making - in the sense that it is my perceptions that create my reality. I've tried this before and if there's one piece of advice I'd give it's that the only value of this path is in learning not to do it.

Heaven and hell are both here and now - which would you rather choose?

I believe there is a misunderstanding between "eternal" and "infinite".

definition of "eternal":
A very long time period which eventually ends.

definition of "infinite":
A time period which never ends. For example: time is infinite.

Your understanding of "eternal" appears to be a little wide of the mark. As I have gathered, its true sense is that of being outside of time entirely.

As you probably appreciate, "infinite" is not reserved for time measurement; nor is it something that the limited human mind can ever truly grasp. At this point I would urge you to seek out "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. And above all else, just be kind to yourself.
Over here tregar quotes Eckhart Tolle rather nicely, click the link and have a read.

[...]
ECKHART: That's right. Most people are not aware that they have a little man or woman in their head that keeps talking and talking and whom they are completely identified with. In my case, and in many people's cases, the voice in the head is a predominantly unhappy one, so there's an enormous amount of negativity that is continuously generated by this unconscious internal dialogue.
[...]
ECKHART: I see it as not believing in this or that, but as stepping out of identification with a stream of thinking. You suddenly find there's another dimension deeper than thought inside you.
[...]

Also, what DmnStr8 says

 

[dragonrider]

So because we are stuck in a cyclic universe we are not free? But wouldn't that require these cycles to always exactly repeat themselves, without any variation at all?

You say we don't have free will because of being in a deterministic world. So everything we do and feel is being determined by processes in our brains, i guess.
Well, i wouldn't want to argue with that, except.....doesn't that leave a possibility open, for a sort of free will?

As in: a thought, or an experience is just a pattern of electric activity within the brain. But that would also mean that whatever happens in the brain is the biochemical correlate of feelings, thoughts or experiences. So wouldn't that mean that you could still make the choices you want to make, because the fact itself that you want something, means there must be a neural pathway towards making that decission?

Especially if time is but an illusion, the fact that brain activity can often predict what people are going to do, becomes irrelevant.

In that case the activity in the brain, and the phenomenological experience of having free will, are just two sides of the same coin, just like electromagnetic phenomena are both waves and particles.

 

[xss27]

When I say "hell", I mean states of deprivation with intense suffering.

Do you not believe that eternal bliss has an equal counterpart. Eternal suffering? In the same quantity or occurence as bliss?

I don't see the duality you do. To that end I think you are projecting something and mistaking it for reality; our brain-mind mechanism thinks in terms of opposites. Bliss and suffering are relative experiences. The issue here is some part of you is identifying with this dualism in a neurotic type of fashion and you need to let it go by stopping the brain-mind from trying to solve what is an incorrect question in the first place.

I agree to a degree, but I am nowhere and everywhere. You speak from the viewpoint of the Absolute. I am in duality and my experience of being at a certain location in this time round feels pretty real...

It's one or the other, you can't be in the Absolute and simultaneously strongly identify with a relative preoccupation [of location].

My current thought is that you've had a glimpse of something real but you haven't gone all the way. If you had you wouldn't be preoccupied with this location quandary, certainly not 10 years post experience. You need to contemplate why this quandary is bothering your mind so much and follow it backwards, and not contemplate the question itself (which is a false dualism).

I totally agree. It is a problem. The reason is this: I am deeply afraid of being in eternal hell someday. I am afraid of the abyss in the universe. I do not want to find myself in a situation of intense suffering which I cannot escape because of predetermination. I want this abyss to be as far away as possible. Of course, I cannot have that if it is not so. That is why I want to know: "Where am I?". Do you have any idea how I can cope with that? If I could just look and find out...

Some part of you is afraid in an unhealthy way, and your imagination is projecting way ahead of where you are now. You think the answer is to ascertain where you are now, but really the answer is to ascertain what part of you is setting up this false dualism and why.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

As I explained above - I cannot choose.

And I relate my experience, which to clarify here, is that one can choose one's perceptions of a situation. That is what is occurring in the here and now, which is the only place where you are existing.

Did you check out that Eckhart Tolle link? It seems to me that you are caught up in an intellectualisation process that you are mistaking for 'the whole pizza' when really it's just, er, the topping. And maybe it's a doughnut. Sorry, bad metaphor

Is there a strong religious background where you are? What is the psychological foundation of this abyssal vision? You may have perceived your original experience of the absolute in an entirely different way had your personal psychological foundations been different.


I remember when I was a kid and first heard about how the sun would run out of hydrogen one day and flare up into a red giant, consuming the planet. At the time it was worrying/saddening but it's helpful to realise that all things will pass. There are times when it would have helped me to realise (or remember) this rather sooner than I have done.

Also, there have been times where, to my great surprise, things about which I had been utterly convinced of as incontrovertible fact have turned out to be baseless delusion. Apparently this has happened to other people as well, so you never know...

 

[ruhrohraggy]

I really love topics and discussions like this. I'm glad I found another interesting place to have them...

I had a well written dissertation fleshed out...but I thought of something more clever.

I don't think OP is gonna change their mind no matter what kinda argument they are presented with...

Ya know why? Because they're choosing not to. They are choosing to believe whatever it is they are set on believing.

I do not mean to demean OP, or to simply apply my values and beliefs onto OP. I have a very diverse mindset, and an even more diverse sense of humor. If OP somehow finds this offensive, that is not my intention, and I am sorry they feel this way...but at that point, a sense of offense means a chord was struck...and hopefully a mode of discourse follows.

______________________________________________________________________________________

And now, cue dissertation.

I chose to take the time to type it...You are free to choose whether to read it, or not. Or no, you cannot choose, you MUST read it...For you have no choice!

I think what OP states is a belief. It is not a proven fact. It is a notion. It has the possibility to be fact. But until it is proven, where we can all agree wholeheartedly "Yes, that is how it is", then it is just a belief.

OP Presses hard, their values upon our responses, and thus we press back.

Why might we assume the universe wouldn't like being alone, and could possibly find it beneficial to have more than one "thing" around?(In this case, a conscious entity)

It's because when one "thing" doesn't agree with the other "thing", it's gonna raise the proverbial red flag and begin a discourse. I deem this : "Getting to the bottom of it"...

Once this discourse takes place, and when all the "things" can finally agree on what was being discussed, then whatever was being discussed can become fact/law/truth/however you want to define it....for at least a time anyway...

And If no things can ever agree, then more research must be carried out, until such substantial evidence is brought forward, that all "things" can then come to agree.

Eventually another "thing" brings up a solid counter-argument and tries to prove all the other "things" wrong. Then all the other "things" take a look at this new evidence, do their own research, think their own thoughts, form their own opinions and either accept or reject this new idea based on their findings collectively, as a whole (Or at least, as a majority). Once again, when the majority of the "things" get back together and can unanimously decide on this new "proposed something", then they can assume that this "proposed something" to be truth once again.

Absolute truth? No, not always. but at the very least, Truth. A real Truth. Not a single truth dictated by one entity, but a fractional truth, agreed upon by the whole.

Even still, this method is not infallible. One thing might get rejected by the rest even though it was "right"...It still beats just one thing, deciding all the things...

And what I described is an aspect of scientific method, and it also ties in heavily with the concept of choices and decision making. Without choice, this method would not work...You have to choose which information to accept, and which information to reject, with a basis for doing so.

What you have proposed is a belief. There is no empirical or scientific evidence to state otherwise. It is simply a belief. And this is not a bad thing. Most great discoveries were founded on belief. (And some terrible wars / other terrible atrocities too...)

Others (including me) seem to not believe the same thing as OP. I choose not to accept your definitions and presentation. You may choose not to accept what I am proposing...

We are now enacting discourse. (Fun!)

From here, you may accept these ideas so far, and possibly integrate them into your way of thinking....You may also reel in the discomfort of this idea, or disregard it entirely. Keep in mind, all of this would be a choice. You gotta choose what to do based on your previous collected experience...whether you choose to acknowledge it, or not.

Paradigm shifts are most often, quite uncomfortable. There is however, one typical knee-jerk reaction that may occur, and I want to specifically handle it : "But none of you all actually exist, everything else outside of my consciousness is just a construct of my imagination". Then you are free in your choice to believe that...but that is a very lonely construct to live in if you ask me...Best of luck, and godspeed in the universe of forever alone. Keep in mind, I am not implying anyone here might think this, but it is a difficult response in which I've been presented with, and given the opportunity to tackle, before...

Sure, all things are possible, and I'm definitely not arguing otherwise. And yes most of what I'm saying is also my own speculation, it may or may not be truth, but it is what I choose to believe based on my current cumulative experiences, and not some notion of "destiny"...So no, I do not feel that I am being hypocritical here. I have a willingness for change, and I do not know how my experiences leading up to choices I may have to make in the future will go with any degree of certainty... if the argument is provocative enough for me to do so, I will change my mind.

Put it to ya this way. I grew up with strongly Christian beliefs. At 12 years old I KNEW there was a God who created 2 people named Adam and EVE. And I KNEW the Earth was only 4,000 years old, and I KNEW FOR SURE there was a heaven and a hell...Yet here I am...saying something completely different...why? Because my cumulative life experiences allowed me to choose and shape what I believed in while I experienced "growth" as a conscious entity.

If you asked 12 year old me whether or not I would be doing extreme psychedelics, having sex out of wed-lock while having a grand 'ol time on this earth without fear of hell...I'd have thought you were insane. No possible way, not me!

Anyway...I digress...

Even the casual observer would notice, that there are definitely some iron-clad rules to this "game" we play though. We have gravity, light, temperature.... All of these fun rules we're slowly figuring out are solidified from theory to law. From belief, to fact. To agreed upon truth.

There are people who still do not believe in gravity, and that the Earth isn't a Spheroid. It is their choice to believe whatever they want.

Does this make them right? (I don't want to think so regarding the overwhelming empirical evidence that suggest otherwise...) This is why we rely on empirical, observable evidence that can be observed by all, and agreed upon by all. (Or again...at least most)

If we jump up, we fall back down. Even if you don't believe in the concept of gravity, you know that this is an inescapable fact that has been found true here on Earth. There is not one single person who has yet to jump into the air and get stuck, even yo' mama. (not yet anyway...)

I like to entertain the thought that these rules were decided by the last civilization that "beat the universe". And what we live in now is the universe based on their vision for the next iteration, a gift left by them (or us...?) for us (or them?), or God, or to at least a universe that did away with the 4th dimensional space lampreys that were too terrifying in the last iteration...or whatever.

To be "God" isn't just about having consciousness. Can you enact your own will on the material and space surrounding you? By this I mean, can you willfully change dirt into gold? Can you create butterflies out of cow-manure? No, you cannot. And I say this confidently. I know that you can't. If you said that you could, I would need to see it in person and I doubt I'd be surprised by the outcome.

We are confined by universal rules, bound in our current fleshy constructs. Sure, you are still a part of God, in my opinion, since this entire universe and all things would constitute "God". But we cannot be so full of ourselves as to say we are "God" just because we can think thoughts...You can manipulate whatever you want in your own mind...but what about in physical space? I feel that this distinction is currently important. (Because otherwise this cosmic game we're playing would be no fuuuuuuun at all)

Until we know all of the rules to this game, and can fully and freely enact an unlimited will upon the things around us, we are still human. Again, to fully become "God" would requires us to know all of the rules of the game AND know how to manipulate, bend, break and heck, maybe even whip up some new ones. We may get there someday, if we can live long enough to see it through to that point...

I think our mind, and this thing called imagination...will be the key to it all.

That is...If we can get past our base instincts for power, material wealth, fame, etc...

Knowing, and believing are different. Do you know what death is like? No, and nobody ever truly will I think.

But we can believe and imagine whatever we want. Does this make it true? Maybe in your own reality, but probably not in mine...(Back to "things" and discourse)

I created a good conceptualization for death not too long ago, that I chose to adopt. I think about all of the time spent prior to being born... And that's about what death is like. Was it painful? No. I only started experiencing pain when I was birthed into existence as a conscious entity, it does a great job at keeping me here in the realm of the living...

Does that mean I'm in hell? No, because hell according to religious belief is a concept bereft of things like love and joy. (I won't get started on how stupid I think the concept of hell is...)

Does this mean that this should be the representation of death or life accepted by all just because I think so? No, probably not...it's just what I can observe, imagine and choose to believe for the time being, and how my brain rationalizes something it cannot fully understand. My belief will remain this way until my opinion is changed by more substantiated evidence to suggest otherwise. (Or an idea that's more fun and amusing to me...)

And when that time comes, I will choose whether to accept or reject the new information.

Think we don't have a choice? Instinctively, deep down, I truly hate people. I hate them with the very core of my being.

I think this quote best sums it up...

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

And yet, I choose to love people (not just a person) regardless, and choose to watch as our collective consciousness discovers more and more about itself, and the world around it...

Here's my answer to your question....Where are we right now?

We're on this mass composed primarily of Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon...Arbitrary terms used to describe the bigger ball called Earth. Orbiting around an even bigger ball we arbitrarily call "The sun", which is flying around an even bigger ball of stuff arbitrarily called a "galaxy" which is flying outwards and away from an even bigger ball of stuff called the Universe. According to our current, collective knowledge.

The universe right now is currently the biggest ball of "stuff" we can observe and wrap our tiny little brains around.

This ball of stuff happens to be expanding out-ward from it's last singularity. We are in a state of life. Whether this is the preferred state or not, who knows, but the fact of the matter is, we are here, and the universe is doin' it's thing.

I find some irony that your question actually seems to be more of a "when" are we, and not a "where" are we in this cycle. (Notice how these 2 terms are kinda interchangeable?)

How long has all this been taking place? Who knows...maybe we'll get to ask someone who knows someday...or maybe we'll be the one's to figure it out [this time].

The best explanation would be : We are on cycle infinity + 1.

I do want to touch on this concept of time...as the notion is truly fascinating...to me at least.

If time does not exist, as it is simply a tool of measurement arbitrarily defined by us with language. Language, which was arbitrarily defined and made up... (We're so clever, aren't we...)

...Then distance does not exist either.

Because that too is an arbitrary measurement we made up and defined. How long is a meter? Well, we said "this long" and we made a meter stick to measure it. But guess what...Not all meter sticks are exactly one meter. They might be 1.0005 meters, or 1.00000521 meters, or 1.00000000000000000001 meters. But there is no such thing as 1.00000...∞ meters. Yet...we would probably all agree that there is such a thing as distance, we can measure this distance to some degree of accuracy, and it is there. It's what separates us from each-other. We cannot live without this concept of distance, as we cannot live without this concept of time.

Weight wouldn't exist either... magnetic fields don't exist, atoms do not exist (we can't even see those, but we know that they're there, and we have given them definition...) So none of this really even exists because we just made it all up...(We, did make it all up...)

but...all of that stuff does exist...because we exist...I know this because I think...

I think, therefore I am.

If you consider our imagination...one must too consider that given enough time, rules can be made, changed, and broken. The possibilities, are...infinite.

We are alive. We choose to press on, endeavor amidst the chaos, to learn, love and discover more about ourselves, and the universe around us. There are those of us who stray from this path. That is their choice to do so unfortunately...

Or the moment when they decide to stop choosing...and give in to the baser instincts of this 50/50 universe. The moment when everyone stops choosing, is the total downfall of our civilization...I believe. Because lack of choice leads to apathy. Apathy leads to boredom. And boredom leads to the dark side.

To put it in OPs terms, I think we are in the actualization and discovery phase of God. If and when we can learn all there is to know about the universe, and how to manipulate the rules freely, then we will have affirmed the existence of God. After that, I think there will be some experimentation and play-time that will take place...Afterwards, we (and I mean "we" as in all conscious life) will inevitably get bored and return to this "source" where we will wait for the over-arching laws set forth by our creator to take place, and then another new, and exciting universe will unfold.

Pre-determined? Heh. I don't think the universe of such a grand scale is quite that boring.

Maybe on your last iteration you had green eyes instead of brown. Or you were a female instead of a male, or maybe identified as "non-binary". Or maybe you were a hyper-transdimensional-plagostamus with an IQ of 4925, who really knows?

Which is our biggest subconscious directive as curious, sentient beings. "Let's find out, shall we?!"

None of this is pre-ordained in my opinion. Because that leads to a "limited" universe. We have the choice to pursue knowledge, discovery and love. Or power, greed, pollution, killing our planet, death to the species. Which won't really matter anyway...Life will carry on. But I think the universe would be extremely disappointed in our failed efforts.

I hardly think in a universe of ever-progressing-infinite possibilities, that the same thing would ever happen twice. It's not impossible, it's just equally and infinitely improbable. And again, a rather boring and depressing notion, to say the least...

 

[DmnStr8]

ruhrohraggy I really liked what you had to say above!

A refreshing perspective change! Just take it higher and higher to see more. Infinite beauty.

P.S. I thumbs up ya for sure! :thumb_up:

 

[ruhrohraggy]

ruhrohraggy I really liked what you had to say above!

A refreshing perspective change! Just take it higher and higher to see more. Infinite beauty.

P.S. I thumbs up ya for sure! :thumb_up:

. I didn't think anyone would take the actual time to read that. I appreciate that you did, either some or all. It truly was a heartfelt response...and not just a troll, assuredly so.

These topics are always so tantalizing, that I cannot resist a full discourse.

And kudos to OP, for stimulating some thought.

 

[dragonrider]

But he basically says that we DO indeed have free will, but that it has it's limits. He uses the metaphor of a movie: it is already determined how the movie will end. But you still want to watch it.

I think i largely agree with this view. The choice is in whether you want to watch that movie or not.

But that is an important choice. And actually, that choice WILL affect the kind of movie you're about to watch.
Because firstly: it will be a completely different movie, depending on how you watch it. If you're thinking about how population growth will affect the environment while watching it, it will be a different movie, than if you focus your attention on the movie itself. If you choose to make a phone call while watching it, it will even end differently...the end will make no sense to you at all.
And secondly: the analogy of a movie is a good one, but in real life, how you watch it will have an even greater impact. Real life is more like a videogame. The way a videogame will end is also predetermined. But there may be billions of predetermined ways. And wich one of those billions of endings you end up in, does depend on how well you are gonna play that game.

If you believe that you are not free, that may either liberate you, or narrow down the little freedom you have even further.

If it makes you more aware of how you are being triggered and pushed into making certain choices, it may help you realise that other choices are available, and thus give you more freedom.

It may also make you passive. A bystander. Take the flow away from you.

 

[ruhrohraggy]

I also have a sense of humor. Let me start by saying that:

You cannot want to loose your sense of free will. Haha! It is not in your control! Understand why? Hint: Predestination.

Sure you can. You can definitely choose to lose your sense of free will. It's what makes us unique as a species. You can choose the "ridiculous" if that is what piques your interest.

I've chosen to abandon my sense of free-will at some point earlier on in my life. I wandered through life "lead by a higher power" or "destiny" or however you want to put it.

And It was fun for, awhile...but it quickly got boring. I felt urged to grab the reigns of my destiny, and I made the choice to do so. I'm currently the driver...as long as I can continue being amused by it.

Aside from that, what I'm even more interested in...is how you can get around saying you did not choose to read that essay.

I can understand that if you stick someone who doesn't believe in choice at an intersection...they will simply say that their path is already chosen and walk off randomly in a direction...

But how did you not choose to sit down and read an entire essay defending a choice-filled point of view...I was much more interested in that explanation...(I'm guessing you chose not to read everything...didn't you)

..."It was not my destiny to read it all".

I am very curious to see what "bliss" and "suffering" mean to you.

Like, how do you mean suffering? Is this an emotional state? Or a metaphysical state?

How do you experience suffering, or any human concepts for that matter if you are either A) Not human, or B) "dead" and lack a consciousness to experience it?

Even though I fear the abyss I am still in an excellent position to just witness things unfold. Not having a sense of free will is luxury. It is one of the greatest blessings one can get. You cannot just have that. Even if you want to. It will happen to you or not. You do not have a choice. You might be lucky and your sense of free will will get completely annihilated or not. If not, you wander around from one thing to the next and live in suffering. Not knowing what will happen to you. Not knowing what is going on with you. It is misery to believe you are responsible for your acts. That will only get you in trouble sooner or later.

I am always amused when seeing people like you, ruhrohraggy. It is fun and interesting to observe that ridiculous "free will" in action. Sorry, I do not mean to offend you in any way. I am just talking about that "free will". That free will is trying so hard to survive. It will do anything to not uncover what lies beneath. You have written so much. So complex. And in reality it is all that easy. You make it so complex. Reality is simple, not complex. I am always amazed that a predetermined universe brings forth a human existence in which a sense of free will appears. There are numerous worlds out there where beings do not have the impression of having free will.

Again, these are just your opinions. There are no facts or empirical evidence here. You are free too choose (or "not choose" in your case...) to have them.

I am glad that you are amused as well. For without at least amusement, we have nothing.

Worry not, my fellow sentient being. Things like Jealousy, money and personal ego are ideas I chose to stop accepting / worrying about long ago.

I do feel sorry that you "fear" the abyss. I chose to abandon "fear". (Are you jealous? ) I plan on embracing the abyss.

I'm terribly excited for death, if that is indeed what you meant by "abyss". That is not to say I'm looking forward to it, or wish it would happen right now...but I am at the very least, excited at the prospect when it comes, however painful and excruciating the transition might be into the afterlife.

And, we will forever disagree as I had originally thought. Though I was definitely not naive enough to make any attempt to persuade you. If I at least provided some amusement and some things to ponder, as you have provided me with some amusement... then we will at least have had a successful, albeit disagreed upon, discourse.

And if there's at least one thing I gathered out of your response, it is that you acknowledge that choice exists. Though it simply "does not apply" for you. And this is a relief. For I also acknowledge your view of non-doership. I must acknowledge it, for I accept the notion of a universe of infinite possibilities.

I would however have been a bit confused, if you thought that choice did not exist at all...

I have chosen to walk this path towards enlightenment. You have "not-choosen" to walk this path towards enlightenment. Either way, we're eventually going to the same place...so it matters not in the end. The only difference is, how I wind up there, is up to me...How you wind-up there, is up to "your destiny".

One of us just happens to be the one doing something, and the other happens to be doing nothing at all...

This fits into duality does it not? Do you accept, reject or simply ignore duality?

I am curious to see your explanation for how things are "simple".

You agreed on the concept of infinity. So things are by extension, infinitely "not simple".

Have you ever tried to learn Multi-variable Calculus? Or differential Equations? Or perhaps Thermodynamics, or Dynamics with differential equations? Or heck, lets go for a home-run with some Quantum Mechanics...

These are some of our current, most complicated forms of language needed to describe a vastly [infinitely] complex world. I find it amusing that you say these are "simple" which would imply "easy".

But if you ask the person(s) who devoted their entire lives to creating / discovering / inventing these languages, they would tell you that it was far from easy. It was their life's work, and took determination.

Or maybe it was just their destiny to do so...But then, you would have to ask them about it to really know for sure.

So by simply being a casual observer. You are not contributing to humanity...And you are not forced to contribute...Must be a blessing, indeed...You are blessed to have individuals beside you that are willing to get out there and "do" something.

This is why it irks me a little bit when you said that us "free-willed" individuals who choose to progress forward and struggle against chaos towards better understanding "... will do anything to not uncover what lies beneath."

Using your words and methodology. By definition, "you" [xrrv] are the one unable to "do" anything at all, by non-doership. We, on the other hand, choose to do whatever it is we want. (Again, who's jealous now? )

We are working our butts off to uncover what lies beneath, instead of just making assumptions about things while not "doing" anything. "Doing" is an action, a choice. I choose to reject the idea that we are pre-destined zombies, lumbering forward in an existence that is already known. If our existence is already known then true infinity doesn't exist.

If you actually read what I had to say, this is where the distinction between imagination, and reality comes into play. Imagination is the playground in which you have unlimited freedoms, where you think up crazy stuff and visualize these "impossible" end-goals.

Reality is the workplace, where you work your tail-end off to see if you can actually bring that thought into existence.

You talk about duality so this should be right up your alley. This is duality. For play to exist, there must be work.

In order to do nothing, one must be able to do something...

And for all of that, a choice must take place. Or a choosing to "not-choose", either way, a choice takes place, willfully or un-willfully speaking

You can sit out in a field and meditate on the ideas until the sun drops below the horizon, but eventually, one must put their nose to the grindstone so to speak. To get out there and do "something" if any real truth is to be discovered.

By "not-choosing" to do anything at all but witness, is the downward spiral into this abyss of nothingness you talked about...

We could surely be as some native tribes are. At one with nature, in a state of "nondoing" harmony. But their way of life lacks progression. It's not that there's anything wrong with their way of life because right and wrong are simply human values...but there are still consequences. Their culture won't last forever this way. Something will evolve past them, and inevitably devour them. Or a meteor will strike the Earth, and they will perish.

They will be left to their "fate".

This is how nature is observed. Kill or be killed. Progress and evolve, or perish.

To struggle against fate, is to reach towards the eternal.

We "choose" to press on. Or at least, some of us do. We cling to life. Why? I don't think anyone truly knows...but we'll hopefully keep striving to find out until we get a definitive answer...

Lastly, I think if all possible outcomes are "known" already, then infinity cannot exist. For infinity to exist, all possible outcomes must be "unknown".

Because infinity, in it's very nature is something that cannot truly be known. And if something is not known, then destiny cannot exist...because Absolute destiny by definition, is something that is already known, and pre-determined.

But destiny is not absolute. It is a choice you make. You can choose to live by a pre-determined script and accept a form of destiny. Or you can choose to rely upon your intelligence and consciousness, and write your own script.

The topic of movies was brought up which I like.

So...Does one choose to simply be the actor in a movie? Or maybe the person just watching the movie?

Or do you choose to write, direct, act, and then eventually watch your own movie?

There are many things in this universe that are pre-determined and easy to predict. You drop a ball, it must fall. You burn a candle, it will eventually burn out...

But we are the one anomaly, up until a choice has been made at least. Can you possibly tell anyone what I, as an intelligent being, am going to do next with any degree of certainty?

Can you come up with an equation or formula to predict it? Take all of my previous choices into account and say : "This is what ruhroh WILL do next". Again, you can look back and link all of my actions together and observe what lead up to the choice...but you cannot predict the next outcome with any degree of certainty.

Our ability to radically change spontaneously is a truly fascinating topic.

So...the answer is currently no, you cannot say what an individual will do next... not until 1) They decide to stop making choices or 2) Not until after they make the choice. A constant state of flux. A constant and ongoing array of infinite possibility.

 

[xss27]

I appreciate your answers very much. They are compassionate. As much as I would love to agree that I believe in this "false dualism", I cannot. I believe that while in dualism, it is not false to believe in that duality of bliss and suffering.

I'm not denying the duality of bliss and suffering, just your particular projection of that dualism I think is in error due to a faulty interpretation of a psychic / direct-mind impression you had in your experience. It's like the experience people have of believing they're Jesus during a trip - I've been there incidentally :lol: There's an underlying truth but it has been filtered and distorted by the brain-mind mechanism. I think that's what has happened to you.

I know you feel you've got this truth about the universe in your head and it seems real to you, but you need to let it go and remember you are human and it's perfectly fine to not know all the ins-and-outs of creation. It's fine to speculate and play with ideas, but you've strayed into an obsession here and that is the real issue, not the question itself.

Like I suggested before, you need to work backwards from it because you'll never resolve it going forward.

I cannot choose to be in the Absolute state or in duality, because it is predetermined where I go and when. Absolute states of awareness and dual states of awareness also change alternately. None of them last forever. The time will come in this life or the next when you cannot see things from an absolute viewpoint anymore. You won't have a chance. It is predetermined where my awareness will go. 50 percent of the time I am predetermined to dwell in the Absolute or bliss and 50 percent of the time I am predetermined to dwell in duality or suffering. That pertains to one round of the universe, which just repeats infinitely. I move through bliss and suffering for infinity. I move through the Absolute and Duality for infinity. The Absolute is not the only truth...duality counts as much. Just as there is order in chaos.

You don't know this for sure, and I would dispute it with you. From what I've experienced the entirety of manifestation is not repeating or circular, it is more of an inexorably spontaneous pulsation, and that also extends to various laws underpinning manifestation - the engineering has a degree of malleability to it, it is not wholly predetermined. The only thing that is changeless is the Absolute.

I can see from your writing you're confusing terms a bit. The Absolute is not bliss.. bliss is a relative experience. The Absolute just is.. changeless, silent, still. Also awareness does not go anywhere, it is timelessly present.

Not to get personal but I think you have got your wires crossed a bit, and you need to work backwards from this thing. The alternative is to just drop it completely, but like most obsessive states your mind won't allow that because it's identifying with it too strongly. Your choice is to either resolve why you are obsessed or wait for something to knock your mind off this fixation.

I agree with your assertion there is no free will, that we are robots and this thing is predetermined. However, as I stated with the inexorable spontaneity of manifestation, nothing is set in stone for eternity. There is an infinitesimally narrow dividing line between all oppositions perceived and through this gap is where you find the true 'free will', and it is from that position that 'magic' is possible and ability to alter manifestation (to a degree). So whilst there is no free will, paradoxically there also is space for it. Incidentally you could torture yourself with that paradox, or the many others, and you'd never resolve it.. the only thing to do is accept the paradox and accept you do not control anything.

"What is fear? It is only a thought. If there is anything besides the Self there is reason to fear. Who sees the second (anything external)? First the ego arises and sees objects as external. If the ego does not rise, the Self alone exists and there is no second (nothing external). For anything external to oneself implies the seer within. Seeking it there will arise no doubt, no fear - not only fear, all other thoughts centred round the ego will disappear along with it." - R. Maharshi

 

[ruhrohraggy]

Like I said outright man, No, I was never trying to change your mind, that would be impossible, because according to your logic, your mind is pre-determined.

And I was never blaming you for anything. I am not trying to "make" you feel anything. You either chose, or are pre-determined to feel that way.

Anyway...

Yeah, we both have provided no real answers... It just opinion, observation and rhetoric.

As for you knowing "the answer". I would truly enjoy reading it. But you will either choose not to give it to me, or I am pre-determined not to read it.

A fun question would be "do I even care?" And if I don't care...what then?

But there must be a way to find these answers...and there is a way I think. With thought, and imagination.

There are no pre-requisites for enlightenment. Enlightenment is a human concept. A state of being. A progression towards something greater. I also do not think enlightenment is something that can be obtained, but a continually progressive value to constantly progress towards...

And even if you "reached" enlightenment, what one finds as enlightenment, another may find as heresy. It is an arbitrary definition, a human concept.

I feel enlightenment is a state of mind or rationalization in which you can find happiness regardless of all other stimulii, while you progressively grow and learn as a human being.

You claim to have found yours. I claim to be on the path to mine.

They are different, neither one better or more accepted than the other as truth. We can't accept them as absolute truth, because not everyone will agree upon it.

You can try to say that enlightenment is "universal truth", but we haven't even scratched the surface of that yet.

This is what I was trying to convey. That our universe is not so limited in scope to just one ideal. It is a culmination of infinite ideals to be considered all at once. (And the topic of a recent DMT experience I've had)

Consider all of the possibilities, all at once.

And we are "free" to accept or reject them as we see fit. And at the same time we are "not-free" to obey them as pre-determined values, once we've either accepted, or rejected.

But how can you have both?! That's impossible! Yet, I believe nothing is impossible. And so long as someone believes that nothing is impossible, we've got a shot.

Some have related falling into a deterministic path to slavery. I am not being so bold, or naive. But what I am saying, is that true freedom exists, as long as someone thinks it "can" exist.

Because a conscious being can "think" that it exists, regardless of choice, or pre-determined values.

You again make assumptions, as I make assumptions. It's human nature...

I never said you were "lazy". But it hinges on your definition of nondoing. Or some miscommunication taking place...

You are a witness that cannot "do". Yet there are things you must "do".

So which is it? You either do, or you don't.

My proof of choice is based in my own mind, and ability to think, which sure... is the only place that proof can exist. That is the only place it can be proven and considered true. Can you point out any paradoxes that arise from this? The paradox springs forth only if my thoughts are pre-determined, because then I have no freedom, but I think and believe that I am free...

From here, I am burdened as a conscious entity to take this thought from my mind, and put it into reality. But I can try, as futile as you believe my efforts are.

Or I could give up and choose to let-go and just "be". But where does that get me? What fun is that?

Sure, scientists make things over-complicated because they are required to. As you become more exacting in your descriptions of the things around you, greater complexities arise...But "how" complicated we can make it, is where the choice really lies.

Here's an example :

What is "that"?
"that" is a chair
What kinda chair?
An oak chair
What kinda oak chair?

See what I'm getting at? As you progressively define this chair, the verbage becomes more complex. How far we take this, is up to us, especially if we seek to unlock the real truth's of this chair.

How far do we go? Is that not our choice?

You say that God cannot intervene? God intervenes all the time. We, intervene all the time.

There are plenty of relief efforts that go out to starving children. There are protestors that fight against wars.

Are these people simply pre-determined to do so? Or do they think for themselves, and make a decision based on thought and belief?

Is the war a pre-determined fate? Is stepping in to aid them a pre-determined fate?

Do they suffer because someone made some poor-choices, or because the outcome was predetermined? I say : both.

You say that I'm missing your point. But I understand your point. I've looked at notions of predeterministic views for a long time. I was once on that side of the fence.

It made me feel incredibly depressed. The notion that we are not free or able to change something we feel isn't right based on our "pre-determined" fate...

I think saying we cannot enact change because of deterministic fate is going a bit far. All it takes is a choice, and determination to do something, and we can do it. If we can think of it, then it must be possible.

Some people might not base an argument on feeling. I tended not to. But I've come to realize more and more, that all human concepts must be considered in an argument. Logic, combined with feeling.

There's a reason that this debate among humans still rages on, because as of now, it's unanswerable (which is a good thing in my opinion, because otherwise we'd have nothing to do with our lives) And you cannot say that you have a clear definitive answer either. Just like I understand, that I have no clear definitive answer. Which is what I've stated already.

What I am truly suggesting, (and what I've been working towards with this discourse, whether it be pre-determined or not) is to consider both possibilities at once. Merge them together.

And there probably isn't just one answer. There are an infinite amount of possible answers, none of which are pre-determined. We then make a choice to arrive at one of them...and then things can be come determined...but not before then.

An intelligent being with consciousness has a thought, and makes a choice. The outcome is not pre-determined, only the path leading to the next choice. An intelligent being receives information on the way to the next choice, processes it, and then makes another choice.

Prior to this choice, the outcome is unknown, and the branching paths of infinite possibility opens. After the choice, the branch closes, and the finite, pre-determined path to the next choice is laid out.

If you let go of choice, then your entire path becomes laid out. Great, good for you, but it still started at a choice.

I personally think that that concept is boring, and it detracts from the wonder and amazement of an unknown and potentially infinite path. I would like to consider that path at each point, and take my collective experience into account along the way to navigate this path to self-growth and hopefully a greater good.

The total paths are infinite. The route in which you navigate these paths is based on choice. From one discreet point to another may be fixed and determined, but as you arrive at each point, there is a brief moment of the infinite.

This is my opinion and belief, held as real truth only inside my own mind, until the entire collective consciousness can definitively agree upon it as truth. (Which I would not ask of them, nor force upon them, I would say it's fair to let them see the information, and then make a choice)

Like I said, I (and many others) think our consciousness is the anomaly. While we are thinking about it, deterministic views hold no value. Inside our mind, deterministic values hold no value. I believe that these are external to this consciousness. Consciousness is the free bastion from fate, born from evolution.

Only once the choice is made, do the steps taken afterwards become pre-determined. But only after the choice is made. The choice itself is not pre-determined, and is left up to the infinite microchosom, that is the universes current paradox : our mind and imagination.

Anyway, that was fun. I appreciate your existence, as I hope you appreciate mine. I'm gonna choose to take a break from this discussion and reflect for a bit on it.

Much love.

 

[DmnStr8]

Great conversation!

You guys are above my paygrade. Seems like you guys have thought about the ends and outs of this topic quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, I have thought about it too, however, I dropped it after a short time.

For me, it was finding this place in me that was certain of something. I felt I had proof, at least proof enough for me, that I did not have free will. I feel like this is an ego trap all the way around. It's the ego that is playing around with the idea, trying to figure out something it cannot. Philosophy is fine and good but in the end it is left with uncertainties. It is theory. It cannot be proven one way or the other.

When you chalk it up to faith, you lose me. I have no interest in faith. It does nothing for me. Some things will always remain uncertain. My conclusion and what got me out of the loop was just saying, I don't know. I say I don't know A LOT now! I don't know if I have free will or not. I don't care to be honest.

I wanted to add something here and I hope it doesn't take the conversation off track. I experienced the void, nothingness, utter silence and simple awareness that I was in it. I didn't know what I was. I just knew I was aware. I felt I had no choice in this. I was simply placed there. Was this the beginning of time? Was this how some god feels with nothing to do because it had already played out every possible experience and consciousness?

It had already gone through everything and now sat in silence, not having any preference whatsoever. It had remembered itself over and over and the jig was up now. This experience felt both like birth and death at the same time. The moment something ends, it starts all over again. Forgetting itself once again so as to alleviate boredom or loneliness.

I thought about this for a long time. I placed myself into that emptyness over and over in my mind. I then had a very nice thought. I feel like this awareness in the dark void contains all experience and nothing at all at the same time. It can be both anytime. Like turning a light switch on and off.

How would we know if it turned the switch off? We would have no concept of time or space or awareness. It seems that it gives us this. Right now the switch is on. It chooses to have these experiences. It has made a choice and makes choices all the time. It may be making choices for me and it is my pleasure to help this god thing out!

I am playing a part of something I will never comprehend in this human form. I play my part out knowing that it has made choices for a purpose. Purpose is what makes life worth living. When I felt no purpose it was back to the void, light switch off.

When I live and feel and love and play and hate and complain and lament and do all the things that come with having the experience of a human, I am living with the light switch on.

I acknowledge that I do not know or understand why this god thing is having these experiences. It feels infinite and timeless and it feels like it can piece everything every which way, any time it wants. You do not have to understand why... you just have to take responsibility for your end of the deal here, might as well go for the ride and do the best you can!

It is making choices for a purpose. We have purpose. Everyone and everything has purpose, otherwise it would not be here. You have purpose even if you do not have free will. This feeling of purpose that I have with this line of thinking was my way out of the freefall. It was my way out of the drama. It was my way out of negative thinking. I find peace in the void now because I feel I do understand that void and it's purpose.

I sit and meditate and quiet my mind and observe. Peering out into the world with this deep silent awareness. Peace is within. Heaven is within. Wish I could serve that up on a platter for the world to have! Hell is on the other side.. this pushing away from the purpose we do not understand. The mind plays it's games and runs on and on. Ignore the mind and thoughts and emotions and simply observe it all taking place and escape the worries of if we have freewill or not.

This awareness is in everything! It's very beautiful!

I speak more from the heart. Not very good at debate. I don't want to convince you of anything at all. I am just an average guy, average IQ, who has had some very unique experiences. I don't know what to make out of all of it half the time. I concentrate on what empowers me and those around me. I hope something I said here may resonate with you O.P. From one human to another.

If I am predetermined to have this experience, then I give my deepest gratitude!!


"I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details." ~ Albert Einstein

 

[ruhrohraggy]

^ Well spoken DmnStr8. I do not think you are below my pay-grade at all.

In fact, after reading that, the opposite is probably true.

The analogy of sitting alone in the dark by myself, with a proverbial light-switch...Is exactly an experience I have had...It hits so scarily close to home it's unreal.

And in my experience, after sitting in this forever nothingness in solitude, the switch was flipped...I could see...Being able to see I got up and then I walked outside. I took a big deep breath of fresh air...Reveled at the sight around me. Got in my truck, drove to a friends house and talked about the experience. We then talked, joked, laughed, and had a good time...Forgetting about all of the nonsense.

Like a curious child...I still cannot help but come back every now and again to ask though..."Who, or what turned that light on..." It's in my nature to ask. I choose to ask...And when I stop choosing to ask this...That is when I feel I've made the decision to give in and accept the cosmic joke... The only thing left for me at that point is to kick some rocks, say I gave it my best shot this time, and return to the source...

I just wanted to reiterate again... that my intention is and never will be to change people's minds. I don't even like the idea of doing that....merely provide some interesting ideas and notions to ponder...minds must be allowed to change on their own.

You cannot force them to change...

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"

And the hardcore determinists go "WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"

But it was only merely exploring ideas and concepts in an intellectual manner...nothing more.

It's been fun, and quite stimulating so far. I deeply appreciate anyone who participates in heartfelt, rational discourses such as this...Though looking back...It's probably much better to have these in person, face to face.

 

[dragonrider]

Great conversation!

You guys are above my paygrade. Seems like you guys have thought about the ends and outs of this topic quite a bit. Don't get me wrong, I have thought about it too, however, I dropped it after a short time.

For me, it was finding this place in me that was certain of something. I felt I had proof, at least proof enough for me, that I did not have free will. I feel like this is an ego trap all the way around. It's the ego that is playing around with the idea, trying to figure out something it cannot. Philosophy is fine and good but in the end it is left with uncertainties. It is theory. It cannot be proven one way or the other.

When you chalk it up to faith, you lose me. I have no interest in faith. It does nothing for me. Some things will always remain uncertain. My conclusion and what got me out of the loop was just saying, I don't know. I say I don't know A LOT now! I don't know if I have free will or not. I don't care to be honest.

I wanted to add something here and I hope it doesn't take the conversation off track. I experienced the void, nothingness, utter silence and simple awareness that I was in it. I didn't know what I was. I just knew I was aware. I felt I had no choice in this. I was simply placed there. Was this the beginning of time? Was this how some god feels with nothing to do because it had already played out every possible experience and consciousness?

It had already gone through everything and now sat in silence, not having any preference whatsoever. It had remembered itself over and over and the jig was up now. This experience felt both like birth and death at the same time. The moment something ends, it starts all over again. Forgetting itself once again so as to alleviate boredom or loneliness.

I thought about this for a long time. I placed myself into that emptyness over and over in my mind. I then had a very nice thought. I feel like this awareness in the dark void contains all experience and nothing at all at the same time. It can be both anytime. Like turning a light switch on and off.

How would we know if it turned the switch off? We would have no concept of time or space or awareness. It seems that it gives us this. Right now the switch is on. It chooses to have these experiences. It has made a choice and makes choices all the time. It may be making choices for me and it is my pleasure to help this god thing out!

I am playing a part of something I will never comprehend in this human form. I play my part out knowing that it has made choices for a purpose. Purpose is what makes life worth living. When I felt no purpose it was back to the void, light switch off.

When I live and feel and love and play and hate and complain and lament and do all the things that come with having the experience of a human, I am living with the light switch on.

I acknowledge that I do not know or understand why this god thing is having these experiences. It feels infinite and timeless and it feels like it can piece everything every which way, any time it wants. You do not have to understand why... you just have to take responsibility for your end of the deal here, might as well go for the ride and do the best you can!

It is making choices for a purpose. We have purpose. Everyone and everything has purpose, otherwise it would not be here. You have purpose even if you do not have free will. This feeling of purpose that I have with this line of thinking was my way out of the freefall. It was my way out of the drama. It was my way out of negative thinking. I find peace in the void now because I feel I do understand that void and it's purpose.

I sit and meditate and quiet my mind and observe. Peering out into the world with this deep silent awareness. Peace is within. Heaven is within. Wish I could serve that up on a platter for the world to have! Hell is on the other side.. this pushing away from the purpose we do not understand. The mind plays it's games and runs on and on. Ignore the mind and thoughts and emotions and simply observe it all taking place and escape the worries of if we have freewill or not.

This awareness is in everything! It's very beautiful!

I speak more from the heart. Not very good at debate. I don't want to convince you of anything at all. I am just an average guy, average IQ, who has had some very unique experiences. I don't know what to make out of all of it half the time. I concentrate on what empowers me and those around me. I hope something I said here may resonate with you O.P. From one human to another.

If I am predetermined to have this experience, then I give my deepest gratitude!!


"I want to know God's thoughts, the rest are details." ~ Albert Einstein

This is maybe the best comment in the whole thread so far. Yeah....exactly this.

 

[DmnStr8]

As much as I enjoy a good conversation about free will, I do not like the direction this thread is going. It has become a debate only of whether or not free will exist. This was not supposed to be so. I guess it is inevitable, given the pre assumptions I made about the universe. What I would much more love to know are your experiences with dmt so far. For example, what happened after ego-death? Was there mainly bliss? Did you have the impression that there is only bliss or perfection awaiting? What do you believe would have happened if you would have transcended your body?

What happened after ego death?

I have experienced both heaven and hell. Extreme suffering and extreme bliss. Just depends on if I fought it or not. Over time I learned to not panic and just watch. I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to say it. I mean I would like somehow come out of my body.. you know.. in the experience. Watching myself let go or watching myself freak out.

Watching in both scenarios with complete compassion and love and a certain indifference. It is just this complete awareness.. I feel like I began to see me through it's eyes. I began to feel I was it and it was me and I was everything. The transition was familiar to me. This awareness was familiar to me.

The compassion and love I felt was motherly and the indifference felt masculine. I feel like I understood or was shown that they are both the same thing. There feels like there is this merging of everything. An understanding. I often will come out of a heavy experience with the feeling like I was just someplace out of time and space and knew everything and I was the one who created everything to begin with. I feel like it was then I was in the silent void. Then I would begin to feel like I was about to go to sleep.. losing consciousness. Felt like death. It was ok and intact even though I was disappearing. It was pleased.

What do you believe would have happened if you would have transcended your body?

I feel like if I went any farther, this was death. No return to the body. It starts to feel that way. It can convince you that there is no return. In this moment, I felt like I lost consciousness. Again, when I fought it, it turned nightmarish. When I let go, I was gone. Feeling my hands and feet and body once again always made me feel grateful that I did not actually die. Coming back from either experience feels good. It is good to be a human! To be able and play the way we do in these limited forms. It's unique!

All in all I feel like once I did begin to feel my body again, that it, or rather me, was constructing my entire reality down to the finest detail. Placing everything perfectly just for me, or more rather for it. I would have this feeling of being watched as I begin to come out of my experience. Feeling like I was just shown the secrets of the universe, but the memories of what just happened start to fade very quickly, just like forgetting a dream.

Over time it became a compilation of experience that brought me to this conclusion. I base it off of feelings and flashes. Letting go is hard, this I know. But it taught me what is important to me! I saw it because I saw the pain and anguish in myself when I was convinced I was going to die. I saw all my regrets and attachments. I saw myself struggle with my own loss.

Example of suffering (hell)... I would have thoughts of my daughter and that would throw me into a tailspin of pain. I wanted to get back to her so badly! It was heart wrenching to think that I was dead and left my little girl forever! I could see this deep deep attachment. I could see the pain it caused me. But I held it anyway because when I came back to my body I cried so deeply and honestly. Wept. Feeling extremely grateful for my daughter and extremely grateful that I can be her dad! Yes.. I went through hell and watch the suffering. I came through it and it showed me something very powerful!

Example of bliss (heaven)... I would have thoughts of my daughter and would understand I always did the best I could with her. My life was now over and it was time to let go of attachments. I would gracefully surrender into the dark that was coming. Falling asleep. The bliss kind of just carries you away. I felt rocked like a baby somehow. Hugged. Loved. Understood. Validated. Peaceful.

Did you have the impression that there is only bliss or perfection awaiting?

It's not just bliss or perfection. It is imperfection. It is art. It is music. It is bliss. It is Love. It is bored. It is lonely. It is angry. It is indifferent. It is balanced. It all waits and contains everything that we contain. What awaits is gratitude! Gratitude!


Although meandering a bit, I hope that answers your questions more on the line you were wanting. Sorry if your thread was swung off track buddy.. (Sometimes threads take on a life of their own)

 

[xss27]

If you are in the Absolute, is it more like bliss or suffering?

It's not like either, it just is.

I'll be a bit more direct now because it is clear from your writing, such as equating relative experiences or hierarchy of levels to it, that you don't understand what the Absolute is. You are free to have your beliefs on this 50:50 thing, all I'll say to you on that is what I've offered already and that is you are never going to resolve it because it is a false question and obsession, not a reality.

Why do you think that free will exists at the same time? You said:

I believe that the paradox exists; that everything is predetermined including our actions but at the same time there exists a narrow space for 'free will'/magic or spontaneous occurrence. It is not all set in stone and as rigid as you purport it to be. You forget that the laws that govern manifestation are not dictates but spontaneously evolved things, they are organic like everything else.

You said awareness does not go anywhere. I guess you are right. It is always with me or I am it. However, do I move through the content of the universe or does the content move through me? That is what I meant with moving awareness. At the end it does not really matter which one is right. It pretty much comes down to the same thing. It is "unimportant".

For there to be motion there has to be one thing relative to another. Awareness, the Absolute, is not a relative thing.. there is nothing relative to it, therefore there can be no motion in respect to it.

Neither you nor the universe move anywhere. You are the experiencer, experienced, and experience. There never was any motion.

 

[ruhrohraggy]

So I would like to touch upon this one last time...as I have now pondered, considered, dreamt and come to what I feel is my current conclusion...I again, thank the OP and those who have posted once again. A truly fulfilling and mind-opening line of thought.

I have read every single line that's been posted in this thread...and it's been fascinating.

I'll kick this last train of thought off with this : The result of my previous "ramblings" was a product of a very strong paradigm shattering DMT experience that I have been struggling to grasp for some days...

I was picking up my shattered pieces here...and this seemed like a warm and welcoming place to ponder, receive input and do so...since it tied in with my trip, and the OP comes from a place I once was. I figured if anyone could talk some sense into me again, well, it was them.

I did not mean to disrupt the OP, it happened...and we can be such selfish things...

So I would like to take the expansive mess I was trying to wade through and "try" to condense it into reasonable and readable terms...as sort of an apology to those that chose to wade through these earlier "ramblings".

I'm sure you've heard of Sam Harris right? He's like...the modern day pusher of this notion of pre-determination. He has a very good argument and when I first heard him...I felt the notion free-will literally sucked out of me...

I finally gave up after an existential crisis and gave in to it. I wandered around for some time without free-will...and Sure, it felt GREAT! at first...but a piece of the puzzle was always missing for me...A small emptyness. It never faded, I don't know why. It gnawed at me.

I am also avid student of modern day science (I partook in a Bachelor's program for mechanical engineering). I was puzzled when I learned about the oddities of quantum mechanics. And the concept that at the sub-atomic, and multi-dimensional level...things were not as pre-determined as we may have thought.

Recently, I acquired and partook in DMT. One of the breakthrough trips shattered my longstanding comfort zone. My consciousness relayed to me a very simple concept of infinite *possibilities*. This small growing emptyness in the back of my mind spoke to me, and then it showed me the potential for what it might be like....

So what is a possibility? In science, this is something that cannot be fully dis-proven. while fact or law is something that is observed as true and cannot be unequivocally disproven. (This is the opposite of most western society's moral and judicial codes, but for good reason...)

A possibility is something that is true, until un-equivecally proven false...when we find it can no longer be proved false (we have found an absolute truth) then it becomes law.

It does not mean everyone should agree on a possibility, because then you remove the ability to prove that possibility false. But they should at least accept the possibility is there.

"Consider all possibilities..."

The 3 words that shattered me into a million bits...Thanks brain...but what did that mean?

Since we cannot unequivecally disprove the concept free-will at the current time...because there is no current way we can consider all states of the universe all at once when it comes time to pull our choice, or decision out of the ether...then the possibility of free-will exists. We also cannot fully disprove the possibility of a pre-determined path existing either...so it too, must still exist.

I was torn from my sweet nexus of absolute viewership. Like I said, I do know where OP is coming from. I was literally just there...

This is what was relayed to me, and what I've been struggling to wrap my mind around...but I think I've got a handle on it, for now...and find myself feeling centered once again.

So that was my epiphany. Currently, with what we know (or don't know),we can experience both free-will, and a pre-determined path simultaneously...because both of these things are currently a possibility. To say otherwise, would require you to fully disprove either of them, which we just can't do yet. And that does not discount the things we don't know either. We may be subjected to some 3rd, 4th, or 198521th concept we don't know yet.

But at the very least, the implications of this allows us to be held responsible for our actions, and our sense and feeling of morality remains an obligation. But who is responsible? I feel that anyone who walks towards a path of enlightenment should be held responsible.

With this train of thought, it could be said that we are all responsible for someone elses evil, if we had the ability to prevent it, but chose not to do so, because it is indeed a choice, whether it is a free choice, or a pre-determined choice set forth by a continuous, repeated training of desired moral values.

A child commits evil. Who's responsibility was it? It was the responsibility of their parents, their teacher. Who was responsible for the parent's act of evil? They are no longer children...though you could still blame their parents, it also becomes the responsibility of the one's seeking enlightenment around them...

Us. It's our responsibility.

As you become an individual seeking enlightenment...You are then subjected to your own personal responsibility for your evil. Because you have taken it upon yourself to correct it.

So we are all responsible, and held accountable for our evil, are we not?

We are both observers, and doers. We are any of the current possibilities and more. Because we are a small anomaly in this grand machine. A kink in the system, but also, a natural part in it. For that is what the system must surely want, otherwise we would not be here. Because we are the system, and we are here.

And how do I know this? Well, I don't know. We don't know. Nobody definitively knows...

So the realm of infinite possibility is still open. And this is a twinge I felt in the back of my brain when I witnessed someone after this DMT experience, who thought they "KNEW" beyond a shadow of a doubt, even though an opposing possibility still exists.

So what? So...our purpose as a collective, should then be to strive to figure this out...But that's what we've been doing. It' been the case, for as far back as you look at humanity from a historical perspective.

We all walk our own paths. We are "free" to fulfill our individual sense of purpose in life.

Not one person should have their individual purpose forced upon them...If you would like to walk a "pre-determined" path, then you are predetermined to do so. If I want to walk a "free" path, then I am free to do so. But both individuals are still subjected to the realm of possibility.

But the aggregate purpose, the collective, averaged sum has still remained the same...To seek out truths, and discover this realm of infinite possibility for ourselves.

By the way, I mean free in both senses. While we have the liberty to do so afforded by our circumstances, and the grace afforded to us by this universe.

That is...until we can either confirm, or squash these possibilities out of existence.

So most of what I've said actually does not change...even in hindsight. Was this pre-determined? Possibly. Was it free will? Probably. But as of yet, not definitely, or absolutely.

Can we make sense of this? Not yet. But we are trying! We are seeking truth. And that to me is all that matters, until we finally do "know".

So I'll reiterate. We are in the actualization phase of God, a state of paradox, duality, whatever you want to call it. And we are trying to reach this understanding of singularity.

Hell may exist, it is definitely a possibility. Though I still think the notion is stupid, I cannot deny it. Do I think we are in hell? No...I am on Earth, I am living, loving and progressing forward. And this makes me incredibly happy.

Whether or not we can affirm God, free-will, pre-determination...That is the challenge set forth for conscious life, set forth by the universe. And we must collectively overcome our evils if we are to get there...Which is part of our choice, to do so as collective Agents.

And this system has an observbable, built-in failsafe. It expands from singularity...and life inevitably ensues. Life gives this grand, universal challenge it's best shot...and since we are birthed from the flesh of this universe, then it can be extended to this idea :

The universe is trying to understand itself...

To seek truth.

If it fails, if we fail, then it simply returns to a source and is reconfigured... expanding once more with a different set of starting parameters, and we get to try it again...A realm of ever-cycling, ever-repeating infinite possibility. Until an iteration of consciousness evolves that can overcome this evil, and reach the finish line...

And maybe that's it's big question...Can evil truly be overcome? Because in order to get to the end, that's what's gonna have to happen I think...But I think we may already have a possible answer...because a singularity exists...so evil must have been overcome at one point...right? This gives me great hope!

But what's the point of all that? The point, is existence. To simply, experience. And we are afforded a grand, possibly un-achieveable, overarching purpose. Because without purpose, conscious entities give up, there is no more will to live...

To seek out this singularity. I think the prize offered up could be an interesting one.

It could be to "Create" a new singularity of our very own. It could be total enlightenement and nirvana. It could be a many number of things...

A simulation? Sure. but that's a concept we either made up or discovered. I'm fine taking place in this simulation, because I like games. Games are fun.