*Edited* Water Crystalization: Will Ascorbic Acid Work?

[Infinite-Potential]

Would ascorbic acid work to precipitate freebase dmt instead of fumaric acid in water precipitation method? Ascorbic acid is more water soluble so i'm guessing this would work possibly even better than fumaric acid. Reason i ask is because i have some absorbic acid lying around. Or how about citric acid? I know vinegar doesnt work with sodium carb solution.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Welcome to the Nexus.

There are lots of useful resources here for you to read.

According to the wiki:

Step Six

If you did steps 4-5A or B, proceed to the Step 6-Fumarates conversion. If you did step 4-5C, proceed to Step 6-Acetates conversion

Here?
I'm struggling to make sense of your question.
If you've got to step six already, surely you've already used whichever acid you were going to use?

You will have already prepared your DMT salt by step six; DMT acetates, ascorbates, fumarates or citrates (etc) can all be freebased again with sodium carbonate.

You will have to explain exactly what you've done so far, then it will be easier to answer your question. At the moment I'm reading between the lines a bit.

So you've currently got some limonene with which you've extracted a basified bark tea of some kind? It looks like you'll be using water rather IPA. In which case pulling from the limonene into ascorbic or citric acid solution will work. You'll have to do the calculations to use a sufficient amount of acid.

I don't really get why you say "vinegar doesnt work with sodium carb solution" either. :?

 

[TGO]

I'm with Downwardsfromzero on this...details! We need more details, please! :d

I use limonene as my standard solvent in most cases. The easiest method (IMHO) I've found is once the DMT is in the limonene is to salt it out with 5% vinegar and evaporate that vinegar (step 5c). Then step 6-Acetates conversion for freebase DMT.

If I've extracted from acacia confusa (note: using limonene), then I will do a Heptane wash or two on the freebase goo/wax.

Anyway, that is just one of the many ways I go about extractions...don't know if that helps any but there it is.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

So i haven't done the extraction yet i'm just trying to figure out if ascorbic or citric acid can be used instead of fumaric acid in this water precipitation method type 1: Fumarates to Freebase Conversion TEK - DMT-Nexus Wiki
The plan is to dry tek with lime and pull with coconut oil, then salt with ascorbic saturated water, furthermore adding a sodium carbonate solution to precipitate freebase dmt.

 

[endlessness]

Ive never tried extracting with coconut oil, but I wouldnt use an oil if you're doing BLAB because the lye will saponify the oils you use as a non-polar. So either you need a weaker base like sodium carbonate, or do a dry tek.. Or use another solvent like limonene or others which dont saponify.

As for salting with ascorbic acid or citric acid, personally I've never done it.. In theory it should work but what I really dont know is that your solution will be clean enough for when you basify the solution, if dmt will precipitate directly out of water liek it does with fumarates. I've had issues doing the same with acetic acid, it only worked with fumaric, but I heard from someone else that it worked with them with acetic acid when they used lye to do the final freebase precipitation. It might be more likely to work if you instead evap the water down and with the oil that remains do a drytek paste with sodium carb, and then pull with IPA or Acetone to evap (or do FASI/FASA but I guess if you had fumaric acid you'd have used it before)

I'd think it's definitely worth the experiment but I'd probably not do with a big quantity, or I'd try to side-by-side some variable to compare (like coconut oil vs another solvent, or citric vs ascorbic, or whatever) just to even further increase our knowledge.

Either way, good luck.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Ive never tried extracting with coconut oil, but I wouldnt use an oil if you're doing BLAB because the lye will saponify the oils you use as a non-polar. So either you need a weaker base like sodium carbonate, or do a dry tek.. Or use another solvent like limonene or others which dont saponify.

As for salting with ascorbic acid or citric acid, personally I've never done it.. In theory it should work but what I really dont know is that your solution will be clean enough for when you basify the solution, if dmt will precipitate directly out of water liek it does with fumarates. I've had issues doing the same with acetic acid, it only worked with fumaric, but I heard from someone else that it worked with them with acetic acid when they used lye to do the final freebase precipitation. It might be more likely to work if you instead evap the water down and with the oil that remains do a drytek paste with sodium carb, and then pull with IPA or Acetone to evap (or do FASI/FASA but I guess if you had fumaric acid you'd have used it before)

I'd think it's definitely worth the experiment but I'd probably not do with a big quantity, or I'd try to side-by-side some variable to compare (like coconut oil vs another solvent, or citric vs ascorbic, or whatever) just to even further increase our knowledge.

Either way, good luck.

Im trying to avoid using strong solvents altogether to keep it as natural and low key as possible, i know acetone is natural but its flammable and isnt very safe to ingest, not that id be ingesting it anyway but you get my point. The great thing about coconut oil is that it will solidify when cold so it will be easier to separate and not contaminate the final product.

Yes I'll be doing a dry tek and basing with lime. I guess it won't hurt to try ascorbic, should i saturate the water i use to pull the solvent? It takes alot to do that, but that may increase the salinity and allow dmt to more easily precipitate, thats my theory anyway.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Another question, can limewater or calcium hydroxide saturated solution be used instead of sodium carbonate saturated solution to precipitate dmt? According to wikipedia limewater has a ph of 12.4 even though CAOH isnt very water soluble. I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate. Im going to use ascorbic acid to salt dmt.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Trying to use lime in a wet tek will be f***ing annoying. You'll get tiny particulates that just cause trouble. It's bad enough in a dry tek.

Citric and ascorbic acid will both successfully extract freebase from non-polar phase such as limonene or naphtha, probably coconut oil too. Evaporate to get crystals of the citrate or ascorbate, mixed with whatever excess of acid almost certainly ended up being left over.

The citrate/ascorbate can be based again as a paste using lime or sodium carbonate, then dried and pulled with alcohol, heptane or acetone.

I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate.

You don't need an oven, all you need is a clean stainless steel frying pan (and a suitable heat source, obviously).

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Trying to use lime in a wet tek will be f***ing annoying. You'll get tiny particulates that just cause trouble. It's bad enough in a dry tek.

I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate.

You don't need an oven, all you need is a clean stainless steel frying pan (and a suitable heat source, obviously).

I know CAOH wouldnt work without using a dry tek in the original basing of the root bark, what im talking about is adding calcium hydroxide saturated solution (instead of sodium carb) to the ascorbic acid saturated water pull/salting to precipitate freebase DMT in water. The ph would be higher than sodium carb which leads me to believe it will work. All that is needed is a few drops to get the solution to cloud and precipitate DMT freebase with sodium carb saturated solution. I hope that makes sense.

I dont have access to a stove top either where im at currently.

 

[ThatDirtyHippy]

. I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate.

Go to the store and purchase some, its called washing soda on the shelves.

I ALWAYS have problems with using lime. Sodium carb is the way to go.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

I went to the local market and didnt see any washing soda. I guess if i need to i can heat sodium carb on a metal spoon with a lighter, wont need much anyways. Im just curious to see if calcium hydroxide would work to keep it simple, convienent, and inexpensive. Ascorbic acid is cheaper than fumaric acid too, and the excess can be taken as a supplement. I think using coconut oil makes things alot easier too because if you put it in the fridge for 10-15 minutes it becomes solid, allowing simple separtion from the salting solution while also eliminating the need for turkey basters and there will be no solvent contamination. I dont know i like to be as economical and sufficient as possible.

I will be doing some experimentation, if this turns out successful i'll write up a proper tek with pics.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Maybe you could get hold of a camping stove? You have a fridge but no cooker?!? :? You could try microwaving the baking soda in a pyrex dish but be careful of wrecking the microwave! And I've never tried it so I've no idea if this will work, maybe if you stand the dish on top of a dish of water?

I'm liking the idea of solidification using coconut oil and fridge, I've been toying with the idea of testing a method using pharmaceutical grade paraffin wax m.p. 54 C to similar ends. Coconut oil has the advantage of being totally edible and having a lower m.p. (54 C will burn the skin).

I reckon it should go something like this:

*Make tea with plant material and a dash of vinegar.
(How will you do this without a stove? Infusion in a teapot? Shove the whole lot in the kettle? Microwave it?)

*Strain, allow to settle and carefully decant to minimise particulate matter. Patience pays dividends here.

*Base with washing soda (sodium carbonate made from baking soda has the advantage of being largely anhydrous which might be desirable here.) Careful, it will be fizzy at first, don't lose any in your enthusiasm!

*Warm slightly and pull with coconut oil. Place in fridge for separation. Repeat for a minimum 3 times.

*Prepare your acid solution. Try to use only enough acid to combine with the amount of alkaloid present. This can be estimated by titration if desired.

*Reheat your coconut oil and make several small pulls with your (warmed) acid solution.

*Evaporate water to obtain alkaloid salt (probably as orange goo in all fairness).

*Re-base (also lime will work here) and pull with acetone or everclear. Or simply enjoy as a salt in one of the numerous possible ways.

Good luck, I look forward to hearing how you fare.

 

[dreamer042]

Would ascorbic acid work to precipitate freebase dmt instead of fumaric acid in water precipitation method?
- Regarding adding soda carb and cooling the solution to precipitate freebase crystals? I'm not 100% but I'd think ascorbic should work much the same as fumaric. The issue here is that freebase DMT is fairly water soluble, so you want to make sure to use an absolutely minimal amount of water to dissolve the DMT fumarate/ascorbate/citrate/etc and also base it with a minimal amount of soda carb saturated solution (just a few drops into the dmt solution till it stops clouding). The real trick here is the cold, you absolutely have to let the solution get as cold as possible to precip the DMT freebase from the water, you really do have to wait a minimum of the full three days called for in the tek. Even so, you'll never precip all the DMT from the water, the majority of it will stay in the solution. You'll be lucky to precip on the order of 30% of the material from the water. I have been considering ways to make this work out better and I have an untested theory you may be interested in trying. Basically I was thinking if you add sea salt to the process it would both help push the dmt out of the solution and it would allow you to put it in the freezer and get it much colder much faster and the salt will keep the solution from freezing. It may be worth trying out. If it doesn't work you can always just recover it by evapping off the water and pulling with alcohol to separate the freebase from the excess sodium salts.

The plan is to dry tek with lime and pull with coconut oil, then salt with ascorbic saturated water, furthermore adding a sodium carbonate solution to precipitate freebase dmt.
- In order to work with the coconut oil you will need to keep it warm/hot to prevent it from solidifying when you are making your pulls and when you are salting. This adds a lot of challenges that can be easily bypassed by simply using an oil that doesn't solidify at room temp. I can understand why the idea of solidifying the oil to separate from the water layer seems attractive, but a simple coffee filter will separate liquid oil from water pretty efficiently and it saves a whole lot of time and hassle with heating and solidifying steps.

Yes I'll be doing a dry tek and basing with lime. I guess it won't hurt to try ascorbic, should i saturate the water i use to pull the solvent? It takes alot to do that, but that may increase the salinity and allow dmt to more easily precipitate, thats my theory anyway.
You don't need to saturate the salting water, it just needs to be slightly acidic. I think you are right about the salinity though that's why I'm thinking adding sea salt would be useful here.

Another question, can limewater or calcium hydroxide saturated solution be used instead of sodium carbonate saturated solution to precipitate dmt? According to wikipedia limewater has a ph of 12.4 even though CAOH isnt very water soluble. I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate. Im going to use ascorbic acid to salt dmt.
Yes you can use lime water to base a solution, it's not extremely soluble, but some does dissolve and it does the raise the ph higher than sodium carbonate. As mentioned there are many ways of converting bicarb to carb, the stove and the microwave are much faster than the oven.

I know CAOH wouldnt work without using a dry tek in the original basing of the root bark
Actually this isn't true, you can use lime in a wet tek just fine. The trick is to mix the lime in the water first, filter out any lime that didn't dissolve, then add your plant material to the water and proceed with your non polar pulls.

I dont know i like to be as economical and sufficient as possible.
In that case allow me to share with you the wisdom that can only be gained by experience. I've been working on the oil teks for some years now and while you are basically on the right track here, you are also making this moar difficult than it needs to be.

First I'm gonna suggest you ditch the coco oil, it's expensive and it's going to cause moar trouble than it's worth. Personally, I don't see a point to using oil at all in the extraction of mimosa or acacia but that's a different conversation, if you're gonna use oil let's talk about the best way to do that. I've tried a variety of different oils (soy/vegetable/canola/olive/grapeseed/sunflower/etc) and they all perform about the same in my experience. I generally like sunflower oil the best, it's fairly inexpensive, non-gmo, and it has a pretty good thickness/consistency for use in extraction.

I see you're considering making a nice lump of bark/lime dough and pulling at it with the oil. This will work, but it's gonna take a lot of oil and it's gonna get messy. After performing that tek far too many times I decided there had to be a better way. Instead of dry tek, I started doing a wet tek: make bark tea, base with lime, pull into oil, salt, convert to freebase = DMT (this is how I know lime works in a wet tek). This work pretty well but it's still a lot of effort making excessive pulls with an inefficient solvent. So I realized there had to be yet a better way.

I'll break here to say the actual better way for mimosa and acacia is end's ethanol tek you can replace the carb with lime and the vinegar with ascorbic/citric and you are all set. You can even replace the ethanol with acetone or isopropyl alcohol but they aren't so food safe.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

So I realized I could just use end's tek for mimosa and acacia and it was infinitely superior in every way and there is no reason to muck about with oil at all for these barks, but that isn't the end of my oil saga. I've been working with phalaris grasses and they contain gramine which is an undesirable alkaloid that is only removed via a non-polar phase. So I realized the best way to go would be to obtain a crude extract from the bark then dissolve that in a minimal amount of oil, that way I get the benefits of the oil/nonpolar phase without any of the hassle of trying to pull directly from the bark into the oil. So the basic idea is to make a tea, or make alcohol pulls, and evap down to a resin, then dissolve the resin in a very small amount of oil and salt it from there.

This brings us to the most important step of working with oil, washing. The wash is performed the same way as a sodium carbonate wash on naphtha. You mix a little bit of base into water (doesn't matter which base, they all work) the water just needs to be slightly basic to prevent it from pulling alks from the oil; I usually use a spoonful or two of bicarbonate to a gallon or so of water. Then mix the water through the oil several times till you see the gunk from the oil layer move to the water layer, it usually takes 3-4 washes with excess (like 1 gallon per wash) clean water before it starts coming off clean. After it's washed you can then proceed to backsalt from the oil with acidic water. Again, I cannot stress enough the importance of washing your oil in obtaining a clean product.

You seem to have a good handle on the back salting and converting process already so I won't go over that. Remember that the water conversion is terribly inefficient. Please report back if you do try adding salt and using the freezer for it. If you want to take the guesswork out of it just evap your DMT ascorbate solution and base it with a little lime, then pull into alcohol drytek style and evap the alcohol to yield the freebase.

You can see some illustrations of some of the processes outlined above in the pdf's here. The one in the first post has a wet tek with veg oil starting on page 10 under "part 2 - Extraction". That's the old method when I was still pulling with the oil. The newer method where I make a crude extract and dissolve in minimal veg oil can be found in the big medicine pdf attched to post #9 in that thread.

I think that should cover most everything. I hope that makes sense. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Maybe you could get hold of a camping stove? You have a fridge but no cooker?!? :? You could try microwaving the baking soda in a pyrex dish but be careful of wrecking the microwave! And I've never tried it so I've no idea if this will work, maybe if you stand the dish on top of a dish of water?

I could but i dont want to spend money on that. I have a mini fridge and microwave at the moment.

I'm liking the idea of solidification using coconut oil and fridge, I've been toying with the idea of testing a method using pharmaceutical grade paraffin wax m.p. 54 C to similar ends. Coconut oil has the advantage of being totally edible and having a lower m.p. (54 C will burn the skin).

I have messed around with coconut oil and its super easy to separate, if you have a plastic dixie cup you can simply squeeze the cup and the oil will come out.

I reckon it should go something like this:

*Make tea with plant material and a dash of vinegar.
(How will you do this without a stove? Infusion in a teapot? Shove the whole lot in the kettle? Microwave it?)

*Strain, allow to settle and carefully decant to minimise particulate matter. Patience pays dividends here.

*Base with washing soda (sodium carbonate made from baking soda has the advantage of being largely anhydrous which might be desirable here.) Careful, it will be fizzy at first, don't lose any in your enthusiasm!

*Warm slightly and pull with coconut oil. Place in fridge for separation. Repeat for a minimum 3 times.

*Prepare your acid solution. Try to use only enough acid to combine with the amount of alkaloid present. This can be estimated by titration if desired.

*Reheat your coconut oil and make several small pulls with your (warmed) acid solution.

*Evaporate water to obtain alkaloid salt (probably as orange goo in all fairness).

*Re-base (also lime will work here) and pull with acetone or everclear. Or simply enjoy as a salt in one of the numerous possible ways.

Good luck, I look forward to hearing how you fare.

Remember i will be doing a dry tek and also be avoiding solvents like acetone and alcohols.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Would ascorbic acid work to precipitate freebase dmt instead of fumaric acid in water precipitation method?
- Regarding adding soda carb and cooling the solution to precipitate freebase crystals? I'm not 100% but I'd think ascorbic should work much the same as fumaric. The issue here is that freebase DMT is fairly water soluble, so you want to make sure to use an absolutely minimal amount of water to dissolve the DMT fumarate/ascorbate/citrate/etc and also base it with a minimal amount of soda carb saturated solution (just a few drops into the dmt solution till it stops clouding). The real trick here is the cold, you absolutely have to let the solution get as cold as possible to precip the DMT freebase from the water, you really do have to wait a minimum of the full three days called for in the tek. Even so, you'll never precip all the DMT from the water, the majority of it will stay in the solution. You'll be lucky to precip on the order of 30% of the material from the water. I have been considering ways to make this work out better and I have an untested theory you may be interested in trying. Basically I was thinking if you add sea salt to the process it would both help push the dmt out of the solution and it would allow you to put it in the freezer and get it much colder much faster and the salt will keep the solution from freezing. It may be worth trying out. If it doesn't work you can always just recover it by evapping off the water and pulling with alcohol to separate the freebase from the excess sodium salts.

Ok so i'll use a minimum amount of water and make to to keep it cold. I have always read that freebase DMT was practically insoluble in water. That is a very good idea to add sea salt, i will definitely try that by saturating as much as possible in both the acid solution and base solution. think its worth the effort in heating the oil to make pulls, i have used coconut oil before and its fantastic, its not too much of a hassle.

Yes I'll be doing a dry tek and basing with lime. I guess it won't hurt to try ascorbic, should i saturate the water i use to pull the solvent? It takes alot to do that, but that may increase the salinity and allow dmt to more easily precipitate, thats my theory anyway.
You don't need to saturate the salting water, it just needs to be slightly acidic. I think you are right about the salinity though that's why I'm thinking adding sea salt would be useful here.

Another question, can limewater or calcium hydroxide saturated solution be used instead of sodium carbonate saturated solution to precipitate dmt? According to wikipedia limewater has a ph of 12.4 even though CAOH isnt very water soluble. I dont have access to an oven so i cant convert bicarbonate to carbonate. Im going to use ascorbic acid to salt dmt.
Yes you can use lime water to base a solution, it's not extremely soluble, but some does dissolve and it does the raise the ph higher than sodium carbonate. As mentioned there are many ways of converting bicarb to carb, the stove and the microwave are much faster than the oven.

I know CAOH wouldnt work without using a dry tek in the original basing of the root bark
Actually this isn't true, you can use lime in a wet tek just fine. The trick is to mix the lime in the water first, filter out any lime that didn't dissolve, then add your plant material to the water and proceed with your non polar pulls.

Good info.

I'll break here to say the actual better way for mimosa and acacia is end's ethanol tek you can replace the carb with lime and the vinegar with ascorbic/citric and you are all set. You can even replace the ethanol with acetone or isopropyl alcohol but they aren't so food safe.

I'm trying to avoid using alcohols and solvents of that nature unless i have to to recover the DMT if something doesnt work out.

So I realized I could just use end's tek for mimosa and acacia and it was infinitely superior in every way and there is no reason to muck about with oil at all for these barks, but that isn't the end of my oil saga. I've been working with phalaris grasses and they contain gramine which is an undesirable alkaloid that is only removed via a non-polar phase. So I realized the best way to go would be to obtain a crude extract from the bark then dissolve that in a minimal amount of oil, that way I get the benefits of the oil/nonpolar phase without any of the hassle of trying to pull directly from the bark into the oil. So the basic idea is to make a tea, or make alcohol pulls, and evap down to a resin, then dissolve the resin in a very small amount of oil and salt it from there.

This brings us to the most important step of working with oil, washing. The wash is performed the same way as a sodium carbonate wash on naphtha. You mix a little bit of base into water (doesn't matter which base, they all work) the water just needs to be slightly basic to prevent it from pulling alks from the oil; I usually use a spoonful or two of bicarbonate to a gallon or so of water. Then mix the water through the oil several times till you see the gunk from the oil layer move to the water layer, it usually takes 3-4 washes with excess (like 1 gallon per wash) clean water before it starts coming off clean. After it's washed you can then proceed to backsalt from the oil with acidic water. Again, I cannot stress enough the importance of washing your oil in obtaining a clean product.

Good to know.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply, i will report back with the results in due time.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Maybe you could get hold of a camping stove?

I could but i dont want to spend money on that.

You can make an alcohol stove out of a soda can for nothing.

 

[Infinite-Potential]

Instead of ascorbic im going to try acetic acid/vinegar and lime just for the heck of it, vinegar is less than a dollar. As far as i know this hasnt been tried before, if you have please let me know. This reaction creates calcium acetate which is very water soluble so there shouldnt be any problems, if it fails ill just re-pull and salt again and try something else.