Ego Death causing an even bigger Ego

[highRvibratoryfreq]

i was wondering if any of the psychonauts out here on the nexus have ever found this to be the case..

Having Breakthrough experiences peak trancendental experiences which completely dissolve you and humble you, only not long after to still be hurtling down the same destructive path with a seemingly fuller ego.

ive always had issues with an overinflated ego periodically at times in my life and always would result in me gettin the wind knocked out of my sails so to speak.

One experience of mine that springs to mind one autumn a few years ago, i had a nice girlfriend and we went to a psy party in the woods with friends, i was in a bit of a dark headspace before the party wasnt going to go then changed my mind. as soon as i got there a friend gave me a bottle of strong expensive rum which i proceeded drink about half of in the course of an hour or 2, somebody gave me a drop of bliss (some type of liquid acid which was floating around at the time) i think some mdma was also eaten and also a unknown amount of
4-acetoxy-dmt, suffice to say i was pretty off my face and feeling wreckless, i went and got a large medical grade laughing gas balloon from some friends went off on my own and blasted it only to wake up on the ground not knowing where i was. instead of going back to the party i went and got another balloon and set off into the woods on my own to find a tree, eventually the right tree appeared before me. now the day before i found a jar of fluffy white nn crystals thast id forgotten about and id bought a large wrap with me to the party, so i packed approx 50 or more mg into the pipe it was hard to tell i was tripping and drunk. i smoked the whole pipe and as soon as it was done before i went under i nailed the balloon. straight away my reality completely broke apart and i fell into what felt like a pit of burning flames i had died as far as i could tell, there were no pretty geometric visuals no friendly entities greeting me, then all of a sudden i was a phoenix rising out of the flames, the source of all love creativity inspiration every positive affirmation of everything all at once, it was unbelievable and still probably up there with one of my most earth shattering and positive breakthroughs. after it peaked i literally felt my soul falling back through dimensions and crashing back into my body every sense was working overtime. now as soon as i came back down and knew i was in my body i just repeated wow and what the fu.. several times. and then as if my body was taken over proceeded to just pour the whole wrap into the pipe must have been 150-200mgs in there. straight away i just smoked the pipe again this time completely blacking out, i came around with my hand in the earth ripping the roots out of the tree i was sitting under as if i was hard wired into the tree! and i was speaking in some strange syntax, tree language perhaps. at this point i heard my girlfriend shouting my name in the distance she had come looking for me as i had obviously been gone for a while.

now i know this whole story wasnt clever, quite frankly it was reckless on many levels, however i was in a self destructive mindset in the weeks leading upto then and it was the beginning of the end for my relationship and many other things that crumbled away in the coming months.

however the point in relation i was trying to make is that someone can experience these divine states of awareness but because of the intentions going into the experience or your general mindset and outlook in life at the time, they can serve to solidify your ego, instead of humbling you. i guess intentions have a lot to do with it as well.

i also see this a lot on the psy scene aswell that even though people eat so may psychedelics there can be a lot of ego and judgement still floating around.. not so much as other social environments for sure. but i see it none the less. and am privvy to seeing it in myself, although i do think a good strong psychedelic experience be it mushrooms dmt lsd mescaline whatever does blow out the cobwebs and give you an insight into aspects of your character that need working on. i just dont think there the answer more of a sign or set of instructions you still need to have self discipline to follow the insights through, and thats something ive always and still do struggle with.

 

[acacian]

Hey highRvibratoryfreq, I'm glad you posted this, as I think this is an issue when dealing with psychedelics that is not often mentioned when taking the psychedelic path. I have found this to be a bit of an issue with tripping in the past especially when I was in my younger teens still at school using a lot of LSD. Initially the experiences broke down my ego in an earth shattering way. I felt like I was beginning to know myself in a far more true way to in the past. I felt freed of the silly social persona I had hid behind trying to gain acceptance of others. I felt true to myself and I knew there was some kind of deep "truth" that I was coming to. On the flip side of that, I saw the people around me, still living in a dream so to say. I felt I could see the way people acted and their intentions behind those actions in a profoundly clear way. Still absorbed in the social ego game of the teen years, and I could see how it worked more clearly everyday. I did not like it and I wanted people to experience what I had experienced.

However this ended up sort of building my ego back even stronger as I gained an almost "higher than thou" sort of attitude.. that anyone who didn't understand my headspace was asleep and closeminded. There was a degree of empathy I both gained and lost. Essentially I thought everyone needed to drop acid to be where I was at. How wrong I was.

I forgot about a little thing called subjectivity and I had not asked the big questions about life yet. I guess I didn't quite understand and respect other people's spiritual journey as I didn't even understand my own. I was mislead.. I was exposed to some things that perhaps I needed to wait a little longer to be exposed to as I was still in the thick of my own egotistic ways. Some of the "knowledge" I felt I had gained looking back ended up being a burden socially to me and in ways made life harder. I do not however regret walking the path I did, and this is not to say I acted like a little twurp towards others.. but I still ha this lingering feeling that people were not where I was at.. when why would they be, they are differen't people and walking a differen't journey.

Hehe funnily enough this for me was also the psytrance party stage.. and I applied the same attitude to anyone who didn't "get" it. Anyways.. it was not bad times so to say.. it was a beautiful and mystical period of my life and I learnt a lot about myself, but looking back for a while it really did tear my ego down and build it back stronger.

It was mushrooms that really ended up changing my attitude with psychedelics. They introduced me to a realm of experience far beyond my original comprehension. I began understanding the relationship of these experiences with ancient religious/spiritual ideas already existing in the world and gaining more of an understanding the concept of "god" that I had been so blind to growing up as quite an arrogent athiest. I finally understood why I was so captured by the LSD experience in the first place and my relationship with LSD has hence changed too. I guess when I was younger, I knew that the experience was something very deep and special.. I did not take it lightly, however I didn't quite grasp what it was due to the lack of exposure to the world and I did not quite understand how my conditioning effected the experience. It was just this thing. And it hurt me to see how society couldn't relate. I felt alone during those journeys as I had only one other friend who could really relate. Everybody else just thought I was "getting f^c*ed up on drugs".. and looking back, in ways I was.

hey your not an aussie by chance are you? I whole heartedly love doofing though I do see the element of judgement and ego still present in it too.

 

[Mystic0]

I see this a lot myself and experience this a lot with friends of mine too, I don't personally think you "kill" the ego, the ego exists with the self, one cannot exist without the other. I think when you experience ego death, you're offered the chance to choose to be a humbler being, the chance to live with a smaller ego. I understand exactly where you're coming from though, I see so many people including myself at the best of times speaking from ego without realising it, or not practicing what they preach you know? It's difficult though, you're reconstructing yourself from the ground up and you can be anything you want

 

[acacian]

I see this a lot myself and experience this a lot with friends of mine too, I don't personally think you "kill" the ego, the ego exists with the self, one cannot exist without the other. I think when you experience ego death, you're offered the chance to choose to be a humbler being, the chance to live with a smaller ego. I understand exactly where you're coming from though, I see so many people including myself at the best of times speaking from ego without realising it, or not practicing what they preach you know? It's difficult though, you're reconstructing yourself from the ground up and you can be anything you want

really well said

 

[Bill Cipher]

Psychedelics aren't a panacea, and they don't automatically provide enlightenment. They're a tool, that's all, and when used correctly, they can serve as a catalyst for growth. Conversely, when they're not, they can either provide a limited benefit or dish out a serious hurting.

Take a book for example - also a tool. You can use it for its highest and best purpose (reading it and reflecting on its contents), or you can use it as a coaster for your beer. You can throw it at intruders or rip out the pages and use them to wipe your ass with. How you choose to use the book will likely determine the benefit you receive. Likewise, if you wipe your ass with psychedelics, you will probably always be left to wonder why they're not having the positive effect on you that they purportedly have on others.

 

[highRvibratoryfreq]

i too was a somewhat arrogant atheist in my younger days and it was my first mushroom trips that and an early dmt trip that set me on this path of self discovery and belief that i am very grateful of, even now though i get frustrated that i have been handed so much self reflection and awareness through life experiences aswell as psychedelic ones, but i seem to lack a great deal of self discipline, which invariably leads to hurting people.

i drank ayahuasca several times last year one experience in peru on a full moon was truly life changing for sure it showed me some very harsh things about myself things i couldnt change or fight that i just had to accept and let go of. and on the flip side it showed me an incredible beauty that was inherent in everything all the time flowing through me through nature sung through me by the icaros, after the powerful ayahuasca experience a spirit visited me before i slept in a powerful vision she handed me a card with a picture of a person in shackles but the shackles were made of snakes it was in the style of an artist called izwoz australian funnily enough even though im english when i took the card she smiled and pulled my soul from my body out of my mouth and carried me across the room through the wall into another realm there it ended. i wonder how this could be interpreted?

but even after such profound experiences i still ended up with regrets and mistakes by the end of the year people id fallen out with etc personally recurring cycles / patterns that i just didnt seem to be completely free of. for me i seem to periodically go through life phases of giving out untold amounts of love and positive energy which rebound and reverberate straight back at me and then from time to time dish out a heavy hit of venom to those who are close, which bounces straight back again.

now i can have all the awareness in the world like i already stated i can see clearly, but i still seem to make the mistakes, unable to break the cycle, maybe this is a metaphor for the shackles of snakes somehow!

 

[highRvibratoryfreq]

art i agree its all intention i believe intention flows through everything including the people who create the things you consume, if psychedelics are made out of greed traded for money and nothing else they lose there essence, maybe the plant spirits turn there backs on them somewhat, thats not to say that i think nothing should be bought or sold and ill try to avoid getting into this line of thought on here as it is not generally tolerated.

my first story i posted you can see my intenions were self destructive for sure but i still got given a gift for some reason there have been many occasion in the past where ive been bitch slapped plain and simple for my plain recklessness and lack of good intent.

however when i drank the ayahuasca i tried my hardest to diet beforehand and cleanse myself as much as possible going into it with the best of intentions to gain the most from it, which i did. it just didnt magicaly turn me into an all good clean and pure being of light fluffiness, and it kinda told me that during the experience that it just doesnt work like that.

 

[jamie]

Ego is not a bad thing..a strong ego is not a bad thing. It can be a very good thing. An ego that is out of check with the rest of the package is a bad thing..this creates a sort of incoherance within the personality IMO.

Interestingly some of the worst sort of out of balance ego fits I have observed in the psychedelic world have come from dedicated users of 5meoDMT..which is known to be one of the strongest ego destroyers.

 

[Bill Cipher]

when i drank the ayahuasca i tried my hardest to diet beforehand and cleanse myself as much as possible going into it with the best of intentions to gain the most from it, which i did. it just didnt magicaly turn me into an all good clean and pure being of light fluffiness, and it kinda told me that during the experience that it just doesnt work like that.

In my experience, it absolutely does not.

Even when used to their highest potential, these things are still just tools; they supply a context for self-examination. How you integrate the experiences into your life and the choices you make in the aftermath, these things are completely up to you.

 

[acacian]

Interestingly some of the worst sort of out of balance ego fits I have observed in the psychedelic world have come from dedicated users of 5meoDMT..which is known to be one of the strongest ego destroyers.

Martin Ball

 

[some one]

Interestingly some of the worst sort of out of balance ego fits I have observed in the psychedelic world have come from dedicated users of 5meoDMT..which is known to be one of the strongest ego destroyers.

Our ego is rooted at the core of the psyche making it one the deepest anchored psychological functions we have. In the analogy of computers: the ego has sudo privilages to overwrite anything trying to take control over it. It takes great effort and desire to try to overcome your ego. The problem however arise due to the fact that desire is a direct function of ego. As soon as you desire to get rid of ego, you start handling out of ego. The more you handle to get rid of it, the bigger it becomes. This is the great paradox buddhists monks are taught to over come in their quest for spiritually.

It is also the reason why people with psychedelic experiences or alternative ways of looking at life tend feel superior about themselves. People preaching about being open minded and such tend to be the opposite: narrow minded and discriminating. I try not to blame anyone however. If i would, i'd be the same. This mechanism is part of human nature and the way we are programmed (though it wouldn't hurt if our firmware would be updated, if we want to survive as a species and keep our planet healthy, but thats an other story).

To answer the topic starters question: yes ego death CAN cause a bigger ego. The ego plays cat and mouse with you if you challange it. Sneaking up from an other angle without you knowing. The more you value what you think you know about ego, the more in control of your ego you are. The more you try to escape from your ego and from our society based on ego, the more in control of your ego you are.

So how to over come it? I think part of the answer lies in acceptance. You need to understand that it's your ego's nature to do play you the way it does. Don't blame yourself. Don't be angry at your ego. That will only feed it. Accept its mechanism of action. Also, don't hate others for thinking they are better. That too will feed it. Example: sustainability geeks for thinking they are better by measuring all of life in terms of C02; psy-trancers for thinking they are better than someone who enjoys drinkng at the bar; psychonauts and spiritual seekers for thinking are better by being insightful. And most of all, don't hate bankers for thinking they are better by stealing all our wealth - instead think of how stressed their job surrounding must be and pitty them for being a slave of their desires.

A good way to deal with your ego is to look lightly at life. Try to see everything around your from a humorous perspective. If you manange to look at things from an abstract dogma free perspective, you will see that everthing we do in life is ridicules. If everything is ridiculous anyway, there is no point in thinking that what you do and know is less ridiculous than anyone els. I think it is good to positively riducule yourself and everyone els around you to keep your ego under control. Just laugh and enjoy.

A good example to illustrate this is wearing a tie. If you give high value for wearing a tie in terms of status, you are in control of you ego. If you then take LSD and come to an insightful conclusion that people who wear ties are stupid controlled by a stupid system, and refuse to wear ties and look down upon people who do, you are still in control of you ego, if not even more (this is what the topic starter refers to I think). Instead, look at the tie from an abstract dogma free perspective for what it it: a peculiar piece of material with no real functual use. Think how funny it is that people treat you different if you wear it. Put it on with a smile knowing it is silly, but understanding that its it has it's function, even thought it's function is an illusion. But that's ok because everything els in life is an illusion anyway.

 

[VIII]

Ego death brings me to a deep passion or seed of creation, which I then direct with my motivations. The seed can grow large and out of control sometimes, losing sight of its roots. Which in my experience means it is time to reexamine a seed or branch. Somewhere along the line I may lose my way, but since I created it all I feel I can still find the right way. In order to do so I must be willing to look at my self and perhaps even kill a part of my self and all that it has grown to be. Regrow it to be all I can be.

For me psychedelics and other activities are the catalyst for this process. Psychedelics provide a clear and deep look, but I need to look at it from all sorts of perspectives to see how it can fit into my self. Reflection and integration of all experiences can have a similar effect. See my self under a new light, all I know is which way feels right. I tell my self, "Follow love and the future may be bright." Love what I can see, don't fear what I can't. There will always be some uncertainty.

As has been said by many others, it is like you are able to hardwire new emotions/desires into past moments/ideas/experiences. Ego death being the death of an old seed of moments/ideas/experiences.

 

[dio]

I think you guys, some of you, are using this word 'ego' too broadly.

I think there are three primary concepts in question here:
-Ego (In eastern mysticism sense, concept of "I" )
-Will (in a magickal sense, or a yogic sense of mastery of prana)
-Resolve (philosophical sense, or yogic absolute truth sense)

I see the word 'ego' being used to apply to these three things, interchangeably, but actually these three things are different.

When one says 'ego-loss', they are referring to the perception of "I", I lost the perception of "I" and became perceptually aware of the infinite.

I think alot of people interpret ego-loss as also meaning the person lost their will, or their resolve, and thus because of that they have also lost 'power' and they become humble, somehow humbleness is associated with powerlessness. This whole interpretation I think is kind of odd and related to residual conceptions of Christianity in a lot of Western people's minds. Where Christ 'sacrificed' himself and the sacrifice was seen as the pinnacle of spiritual accomplishment in the western view, which has thus created this view in the western frequency of thought that greater spiritual accomplishment is associated with sacrifice. It is associated with laying down, doing whatever everyone else wants, it is associated with being passive, allowing things 'to be', being humble is being 'christ-like'. Powerless, and in service to all humanity and all of humanity's whims.

But this is not really quite right, it's also doubly not right because the 'ego-loss' thing is sort of a buddhist, hindu, yogic conception, and it is being applied to Christian context. When this 'ego-loss' term was introduced to the western world as the 'greatest spiritual accomplishment', western mind's already had in their conception that Christ's laying down of himself was the greatest spiritual accomplishment, and thus these two things kind of got mixed, ego-loss and Christly-sacrifice. People sort of associated the concepts of Christ's experience of sacrifice with that of ego-loss. But this is not quite right...

Ego-loss is not inherently losing of power, or sacrificing, or losing will, or becoming a servant to humanity. Ego loss in a yogic context is becoming a servant to the infinite, and a pure expression of the infinite

If you go to a yogic context, specifically raja yoga, loss of ego is not associated with loss of power. It is actually associated with the gaining of power. It is associated with a attainment of greater will, and greater resolve. With greater control of prana, and effecting the gross manifestation, and knowing with absolute certainty the truth. This is because the EGO gets in the way of the Will and Resolve on absolute truth, and it is through greater Will and Resolve on absolute truth that one truly transcends, to greater states, not just spiritually, but in the social and economic world. In a yogic context the purpose of medtation and going through periods of ego-loss was to rise up. The 'Raja' of Raja Yoga is translated to mean 'Royal', Raja Yoga means Royal Yoga, because the practices described in it were things considered necessary to master to enter a Royal state. Also understand that 'Raja Yoga' is classical yoga, it is NOT an alteration of yoga, it is the original form of yoga, Raja Yoga was traditioanlly called just 'Yoga', but the prefix of 'Raja' was added in later times to denote it's different from the newer altered forms of yoga. Yoga, meditation, mastering the experience of Ego-loss, was traditionally developed and perpetuated as the practices of Royalty, those in control and in power.

In this yogic context, one becomes humble and a servant to humanity not because of the loss of power, or because of self-sacrifice, or laying low, being 'Christly'. But rather one becomes humble because they are all-powerful, fully secure with themselves, and a fully self-actualized human being, they can 'just be', there is no need for them to fight or engage in trickery or nonsense, they can just sit in full infinite awareness, fully self actualized. They have no need for the 'ego' or sense of 'I', because they have mastered the 'I', things in Yogic or Hindu context in association to ego-loss or meditation are all interrelated to self-mastery. When someone attains this highest state, in yogic context, it is seen as their role to help humanity from their lofty and higher state of existence, which is why Royalty initially existed and was concieved of. Losing the ego, or rather no longer having a need for ego, means you are more spiritually accomplished, meaning you have less vested interests in the "I" because you have already sorted that thing out you have already mastered the "I", your sense of "I" is not dependent on the outcome of the situation. You have less ego present, because you don't need as much ego to function. You are in tune with the infinite source. You have transcended much of the lower levels of existing, not because of self-sacrifice and humbling yourself, and removing yourself. But because of mastery of the self, atunement of the self with the infinite, yoga (union). Such a state is all powerful.

So to the OP, when you say do you notice ego-loss induces more ego, I think you are mixing up the words ego, will and resolve.

Ego-loss most certainly intensifies ones resolve and intensifies ones will. They may resultingly come out of it far more energetic, 'in the know', and even a bit 'guiding' and 'leading'. But this is what comes from greater will and resolve, and less ego. When one has clearer fixation on absolute truth (resolve) and greater will (energy, control of prana, will to manifest) or rather when the infinite source is more readily flowing through the person, they are our natural leaders, they are in royal union (raja yoga). Shamans in ancient tribes were not seen as christly, humbled, self-sacrifical servants. They were seen as tribal leaders and visionaries. Because there use psychedelic, rituals, and deep exploration into the other gave them greater knowledge of the absolute, and ultimate greater will.

I fully expect people to come out of states of ego-loss with something to say, and a surplus of energy from the infinite source to express their will in some way, and greater resolve on what is absolutely true in order to know how to best express that will. This is perfectly in line with the subject from a yogic context.

If someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I want to fuck some bitches and get drunk, I'm entitled to fuck as many bitches as possible', ok that is coming out of it into more ego, more self-fullfillment of the "I", because they still consider the needs of the "I" outside of them. But if someone comes out of ego-loss and is like "I KNOW WHY WE EXIST IN THE UNIVERSE AND HOW TO MANIFEST THE NEXT STAGE OF HUMAN EVOLUTION" and they start to argue it and impose will to change things, that is not from greater ego, as in greater intertwinement with the "I" and the needs of the "I". It is rather from an overbaundance of source energy (aka. the loss of "I" ), resulting in greater will, and resolve.

This association between low-energy and ego-loss is weird, and I think, as described before, it comes from the wrong mixing of Christly 'ego-loss sacrifice' with the true context of yogic ego loss. Ego-loss does not result in less energy, more passivity, and being more easily agreeable. It results in MORE ENERGY and less passivity, ego-loss means you are in greater union with the infinite and you have to find some way to let the infinite through you. The humbleness comes not from putting yourself to side, but from the realization you are the infinite source of existence and there is no need for you to take, or 'pick at' other people for self fulfillment, but rather you are here to give the infinite source to the rest of humanity through yourself. If union with the infinite source occurs in an environment or a place, that is itself not very much in union, this state of 'ego-loss', will then result in a very forthright, controlling and possibly even perceptually destructive person. Like a deity suddenly being cast down into lowly conditions, with un-deitic people, that deity will try to work things into shape to help those people to the next level. But understand, that the expression of the resulting will of a deity, is an expression of infinite love, not selfish desire. That is where the line is drawn between 'ego' and 'ego-loss', is one trying to achieve things for the fullfillment of "I" under the pretense they aren't infinite, OR are they trying to achieves things for the fullfillment of humanity under the pretense that themselves are already infinite. Sometimes a person, or deity, can be doing something that seems rather fucked, but by them doing that, it is going to push you into a greater state of existence, and this experience that they brought about, was from being in a state of greater ego-loss, and a state of greater expression of the infinite.

I think I will now end this with a quote from Terence McKenna, "The newage will come when all appears to be ego, but really it's only tao". Think about it...

 

[Kensho]

Ego will do everything it can to stay in power. It will tear down your door. It will stop at nothing.

Mystical experiences of the Ego death sort serve as mere motivation to me. The real power comes from scrutinizing it and seeing through it's blatant lies. Now, every situation seems to me to carry some opportunity to do just that. For instance it is interesting to observe the crisis train it puts into service after an experience of this sort.

I think we all can relate to the experience of Ego being slippery. Still working on how to deal with it personally, but I know this much: when Ego makes a huge noise it usually means I am onto something. 8)

Keep on observing. Deepen awareness.

 

[some one]

Uncle Knucles: Thanks for starting this great topic!

Kensho: I'm glad we're on the same track. But man: "when Ego makes a huge noise it usually means I am onto something" Wow, what an awesome mindset... I'm totaly inspired haha.

dio: Great explanation and very well formulated. I have little knowledge of believe systems and have learned interesting things from you post. Thinking back of a conversation I ones had with someone, I now see the miscommunication due to our difference in meaning for the word ego. Indeed its crucial to know we're all speaking about the same thing.

This is what i mean by ego: The ego is that which makes you scared to approach the hot girl, give the important presentation or do a break through dmt session - cause it feels it may hurt itself. The ego is that which makes you feel envy, jealousy, competitive, superior, inferior to others. The ego is that which denies you are addicted to something and that which makes you by accident forgets to think about the feelings of others. A misconseption is that ego stands for egoism, people who only care for themselves. Or that ego stands for pride, high self esteem and arrogance. To me people with big egos give significant value to their position in relation to others. Any postion, superior or inferior. Therfor, someone with low self esteem issues has a very big ego. Think about that. Someone who puts a lot of energy in creating and holding up an image has a very big ego. This person will identify himself with the image, feeling vurnable when the image is attacked. People who think their way of life is the only truth and don't care to understand others who are different, have a big ego. This can include people who have life changing psychedelic experiences. That in short, is what i mean by ego.

Now let's see with what the two big pioneers of western psychology have to say:

According to Freuds Structural Model the psyche exists out of three elements:

The Id: The id doesn't care about reality, about the needs of anyone else, only its own satisfaction
The ego: The ego understands that other people have needs and desires and that sometimes being impulsive or selfish can hurt us in the long run.
The Superego: The Superego is the moral part of us and develops due to the moral and ethical restraints placed on us by our caregivers.

In this case the word ego would be wrong to use. According to Freud the thing we are refering to is called the Id.

Personally I favour Jung's views over Freud's. See: Self in Jungian psychology and Jungian Models of the Psyche.
Jung has a more wholistic view and broadened psychoanalysis to include art, mythology and the thought processes of native peoples.

What distinguishes Jungian psychology is the idea that there are two centers of the personality. The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little circle off the center contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle.

Emergence from the Self
Jung considered that from birth every individual has an original sense of wholeness - of the Self - but that with development a separate ego-consciousness crystallizes out of the original feeling of unity. This process of ego-differentiation provides the task of the first half of one's life-course, though Jungians also saw psychic health as depending on a periodic return to the sense of Self, something facilitated by the use of myths, initiation ceremonies, and rites of passage.

Return to the Self
Once ego-differentiation had been successfully achieved, and the individual securely anchored in the external world, Jung considered that a new task then arose for the second half of life - a return to, and conscious rediscovery of, the Self - the conscious coming-to-term with one's own inner center (psychic nucleus) or Self. This generally begins with a "wounding of the personality". The ego has to turn for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality. Jung called this center the 'Self' and described it as the totality of the whole psyche, in order to distinguish it from the 'ego', which constitutes only a small part of the psyche.

Summary: We start at birth as a wholistic being. The first part of life is to reduce the wholistic self into an isolated ego. The second part of life is to dissolve the ego and reintergrating into the wholistic self. This is considered normal, healthy psychology which eveyone undergoes. Not just psychonauts and such, remember that.

I believe using psychedelics falls under 'initiation ceremonies' for going from a reductionist ego state to a wholistic self state. Psychedelics initiatate what Jung calls a "wounding of the personality". Taking psychedelics at a young age might leave you feeling alienated from others around you (as some people have stated here). Everyone goes through the process of ego dissolving and re-finding the wholistic self. Or atleast everyone should (unfornatuately this is not the case). Naturally this process occurs at an certain age. Taking psychedelics at a younger age makes you progres faster than the majority of your age, isolating you from others on a psychological level. Not being ready to process the psychedelic experience could also disrupt the intergration of your own mind. I believe this not to be a big problem though. The mind will recover and in the long run it will be benefitial (as others have mentioned). It just not a pleasant experience to go through.

Further more, psychedelics will push your 'intergration' futher than normal. Instead of just going from the ego to the self, it goes much deeper.

In general with me LSD has the tendancy to get me to the 'personal unconscious' level. Mushrooms get me to the 'collective unconscious' level. DMT gets me to the 'never made consious' level and i believe others have gone all the way to the 'central energy'.

Imagine the psychological development which could arise from such journeys...

Unfortunately this psychological development usually does not seem to hold very long (as other are mentioning). Why?

Maybe what psychedelic experiences are to real long term sustainable psychological development is what watching porn is to having actual sex. You see it, you feel it, but its not the same. Its there while you are here. Observing, but not participating. Maybe for sustainable change to happen an easy shortcut is not enough and you need to do 'the real thing'. Maybe an option would be following the monks in Tibet. Years of dedication and practice. To me psychedelics are an inspiration to find the inner state naturally by myself. Just like watching porn in my teen years increased my desire to have actual sex. Ironically its my ego which desires this finding of my inner states. Maybe that what Jung meant by your ego turning for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality?

The second reason why psychedelic experiences might not lead to a dissolving of ego, but the opposite is the following. The insights and knowledge you gain might make you feel you reached a special position compared to others who have not yet done so. Positioning yourself in relation to others is a primary mechanism of the ego. You will likely feel superior if your mind is not ready for such developments to take place, at say a premature age (as people are describing they have experienced).

If someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I want to fuck some bitches and get drunk, I'm entitled to fuck as many bitches as possible'

This doesn't really make sense. What could actually happen though is the following: someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I am really knowledgeable and insightful now. People who haven't experienced this are on a lower level than me. I pwned my ego, yeah take that you stupid ego. etc etc.

Your ego will take back control very sneaky, without you knowing, like i explained in my previous post and as kenso mentions very clearly. The ego has the tendancy to get back at you creating the same situation as before, like a system of zooming fractual geometry. Thats why, in my opinion, ego death can lead to the opposite.

 

[dio]

This doesn't really make sense. What could actually happen though is the following: someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I am really knowledgeable and insightful now. People who haven't experienced this are on a lower level than me. I pwned my ego, yeah take that you stupid ego. etc etc.

Your ego will take back control very sneaky, without you knowing, like i explained in my previous post and as kenso mentions very clearly. The ego has the tendancy to get back at you creating the same situation as before, like a system of zooming fractual geometry. Thats why, in my opinion, ego death can lead to the opposite.

Learning how to not let your ego take back control of you is one of the very diffucult things that I consider to be apart of the whole integration process.

 

[Inner Paths]

Uncle Knucles: Thanks for starting this great topic!

Kensho: I'm glad we're on the same track. But man: "when Ego makes a huge noise it usually means I am onto something" Wow, what an awesome mindset... I'm totaly inspired haha.

dio: Great explanation and very well formulated. I have little knowledge of believe systems and have learned interesting things from you post. Thinking back of a conversation I ones had with someone, I now see the miscommunication due to our difference in meaning for the word ego. Indeed its crucial to know we're all speaking about the same thing.

This is what i mean by ego: The ego is that which makes you scared to approach the hot girl, give the important presentation or do a break through dmt session - cause it feels it may hurt itself. The ego is that which makes you feel envy, jealousy, competitive, superior, inferior to others. The ego is that which denies you are addicted to something and that which makes you by accident forgets to think about the feelings of others. A misconseption is that ego stands for egoism, people who only care for themselves. Or that ego stands for pride, high self esteem and arrogance. To me people with big egos give significant value to their position in relation to others. Any postion, superior or inferior. Therfor, someone with low self esteem issues has a very big ego. Think about that. Someone who puts a lot of energy in creating and holding up an image has a very big ego. This person will identify himself with the image, feeling vurnable when the image is attacked. People who think their way of life is the only truth and don't care to understand others who are different, have a big ego. This can include people who have life changing psychedelic experiences. That in short, is what i mean by ego.

Now let's see with what the two big pioneers of western psychology have to say:

According to Freuds Structural Model the psyche exists out of three elements:

The Id: The id doesn't care about reality, about the needs of anyone else, only its own satisfaction
The ego: The ego understands that other people have needs and desires and that sometimes being impulsive or selfish can hurt us in the long run.
The Superego: The Superego is the moral part of us and develops due to the moral and ethical restraints placed on us by our caregivers.

In this case the word ego would be wrong to use. According to Freud the thing we are refering to is called the Id.

Personally I favour Jung's views over Freud's. See: Self in Jungian psychology and Jungian Models of the Psyche.
Jung has a more wholistic view and broadened psychoanalysis to include art, mythology and the thought processes of native peoples.

What distinguishes Jungian psychology is the idea that there are two centers of the personality. The ego is the center of consciousness, whereas the Self is the center of the total personality, which includes consciousness, the unconscious, and the ego. The Self is both the whole and the center. While the ego is a self-contained little circle off the center contained within the whole, the Self can be understood as the greater circle.

Emergence from the Self
Jung considered that from birth every individual has an original sense of wholeness - of the Self - but that with development a separate ego-consciousness crystallizes out of the original feeling of unity. This process of ego-differentiation provides the task of the first half of one's life-course, though Jungians also saw psychic health as depending on a periodic return to the sense of Self, something facilitated by the use of myths, initiation ceremonies, and rites of passage.

Return to the Self
Once ego-differentiation had been successfully achieved, and the individual securely anchored in the external world, Jung considered that a new task then arose for the second half of life - a return to, and conscious rediscovery of, the Self - the conscious coming-to-term with one's own inner center (psychic nucleus) or Self. This generally begins with a "wounding of the personality". The ego has to turn for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality. Jung called this center the 'Self' and described it as the totality of the whole psyche, in order to distinguish it from the 'ego', which constitutes only a small part of the psyche.

Summary: We start at birth as a wholistic being. The first part of life is to reduce the wholistic self into an isolated ego. The second part of life is to dissolve the ego and reintergrating into the wholistic self. This is considered normal, healthy psychology which eveyone undergoes. Not just psychonauts and such, remember that.

I believe using psychedelics falls under 'initiation ceremonies' for going from a reductionist ego state to a wholistic self state. Psychedelics initiatate what Jung calls a "wounding of the personality". Taking psychedelics at a young age might leave you feeling alienated from others around you (as some people have stated here). Everyone goes through the process of ego dissolving and re-finding the wholistic self. Or atleast everyone should (unfornatuately this is not the case). Naturally this process occurs at an certain age. Taking psychedelics at a younger age makes you progres faster than the majority of your age, isolating you from others on a psychological level. Not being ready to process the psychedelic experience could also disrupt the intergration of your own mind. I believe this not to be a big problem though. The mind will recover and in the long run it will be benefitial (as others have mentioned). It just not a pleasant experience to go through.

Further more, psychedelics will push your 'intergration' futher than normal. Instead of just going from the ego to the self, it goes much deeper.

In general with me LSD has the tendancy to get me to the 'personal unconscious' level. Mushrooms get me to the 'collective unconscious' level. DMT gets me to the 'never made consious' level and i believe others have gone all the way to the 'central energy'.

Imagine the psychological development which could arise from such journeys...

Unfortunately this psychological development usually does not seem to hold very long (as other are mentioning). Why?

Maybe what psychedelic experiences are to real long term sustainable psychological development is what watching porn is to having actual sex. You see it, you feel it, but its not the same. Its there while you are here. Observing, but not participating. Maybe for sustainable change to happen an easy shortcut is not enough and you need to do 'the real thing'. Maybe an option would be following the monks in Tibet. Years of dedication and practice. To me psychedelics are an inspiration to find the inner state naturally by myself. Just like watching porn in my teen years increased my desire to have actual sex. Ironically its my ego which desires this finding of my inner states. Maybe that what Jung meant by your ego turning for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality?

The second reason why psychedelic experiences might not lead to a dissolving of ego, but the opposite is the following. The insights and knowledge you gain might make you feel you reached a special position compared to others who have not yet done so. Positioning yourself in relation to others is a primary mechanism of the ego. You will likely feel superior if your mind is not ready for such developments to take place, at say a premature age (as people are describing they have experienced).

If someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I want to fuck some bitches and get drunk, I'm entitled to fuck as many bitches as possible'

This doesn't really make sense. What could actually happen though is the following: someone comes out of ego-loss and is like 'I am really knowledgeable and insightful now. People who haven't experienced this are on a lower level than me. I pwned my ego, yeah take that you stupid ego. etc etc.

Your ego will take back control very sneaky, without you knowing, like i explained in my previous post and as kenso mentions very clearly. The ego has the tendancy to get back at you creating the same situation as before, like a system of zooming fractual geometry. Thats why, in my opinion, ego death can lead to the opposite.

Fantastic post! That laid it out in a really insightful manor. I've always had an interest in the way the psyche has been interpreted by people like Jung and Freud though I must admit that I have a lot more reading to do on the matter, I think your post just reignited my interests again

 

[highRvibratoryfreq]

yes some really great info been posted here.. thanks people given me a lot to think about and digest all this info!

maybe i was using the word Ego quite broadly, i also find the idea of how chirstianity has affected our perception of the ego interesting aswell never thought of that before..

also someone your post really resonated with me especially

Maybe what psychedelic experiences are to real long term sustainable psychological development is what watching porn is to having actual sex. You see it, you feel it, but its not the same. Its there while you are here. Observing, but not participating. Maybe for sustainable change to happen an easy shortcut is not enough and you need to do 'the real thing'. Maybe an option would be following the monks in Tibet. Years of dedication and practice. To me psychedelics are an inspiration to find the inner state naturally by myself. Just like watching porn in my teen years increased my desire to have actual sex. Ironically its my ego which desires this finding of my inner states. Maybe that what Jung meant by your ego turning for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality?

The second reason why psychedelic experiences might not lead to a dissolving of ego, but the opposite is the following. The insights and knowledge you gain might make you feel you reached a special position compared to others who have not yet done so. Positioning yourself in relation to others is a primary mechanism of the ego. You will likely feel superior if your mind is not ready for such developments to take place, at say a premature age (as people are describing they have experienced).

great stuff some very informative minds here on the nexus :thumb_up:

 

[Global]

Ironically its my ego which desires this finding of my inner states. Maybe that what Jung meant by your ego turning for help to a "hidden regulating or directing tendency" in the personality?

Just got chills reading those sentences. It's a very intriguing concept.

 

[NamahsNaicigam]

"...When you get a sense of oneness and wholeness you must be very careful with it if you have a western background. This is what happens to people who trifle in the world of psychedelic chemicals. There are many, many cases of inflation among these people. That is to say, when you get this sensation of the outside and the inside moving together you may think "I am ruling it.". I am "God" in the western sense of the word. Therefore, your ego as it were, instead of being integrated and transcended by this process, merely assumes vast dimensions as megalomania is blown up by the mystical experiences. And so you get the "Holier then thou" people going around who seem to think that they are above all human conventions and accept no obligations to anyone or anything because they are divine and can do as they damn well please. However, what they have not realized is that doing as you will isn't a new kind of behavior. That is what they have always been doing. Only with a little less conviction..." - Alan Watts