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"Empathogenicity" in Psilocybin mushrooms

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dithyramb

dithyramb

The Love of the Earth
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Psilocybin does appear to have an empathogenic dimension which distinguishes it from DMT. Alongside that, I got the impression that some species are more empathogenic than others... Are there others familiar with this? Which species stick out as being more empathogenic for you? And what ingredients could be contributing to this effect? It seems PEA is found in liberty caps.
 
I've also felt that psilocybin is more benign than DMT which can be quite harsh. I have only experience from cubensis, so cannot comment on different species. I like how many different ways there are to use the mushrooms, different dosages, combinations, settings etc.
 
This is very interesting to me because I personally do experience empathogenicity with DMT as well as psilocybin and and psilocybin.

Due to poor recollection and general information about the many different kinds of mushrooms I've eaten in the past, my observation lacks specificity. However, I do notice a difference in this facet as well relative to different kinds of shrooms. I wonder how much baeocystin contributes to said differences.

One love
 
I'm wondering what specific aspects of empathogenicity you're referring to - is it perhaps increased rapport? Feelings of benevolence towards other beings? Or something else?

In one of my more profound experiences with liberty caps - which, it's worth noting, was after lying under a shrub bawling my eyes out for at least half an hour - there was certainly a heightened sensitivity to quite a remarkable degree. There's no other way of putting it, I could sense the bioelectrical field of a couple of people walking down the street from 50 meters away on the other side of the house from where I was sat at the far end of the garden.

Would you say that maybe this heightened sensitivity plays into your personal character traits? I feel that my "purge of tears" cleared a lot of trauma that normal stood between me and my interactions with other people. It also gave me "spider powers"(!), as did another psilocybin-assisted crying purge.

Edit: VM's observation that baeocystin may be involved strikes a chord as P. semilanceata is known to often contain higher levels of baeocystin than many other species.
 
By empathogenicity, I mean a heart opening. Specifically a feeling of deep, visceral, loving siblinghood with all beings, including humans, animals, plants, spirits etc. Also a very emotional frequency, as in crying seems so much easier and more natural with liberty caps than other entheogens (cacti are also like that for me).

DWZ, the "spider sense" sounds very interesting, and your "purge of tears" description fits into what I am trying to describe.

About baeocystin, is there anybody familiar with it's effects?

I only have experience with cubensis and liberty caps, and liberty caps are far more emotional and heart opening (empathogenic) for me.
 
My empathogenicity (as you've described) is definitely prevelant in both psilocybin and DMT experiences. Definitely get the purge of tears in both as well. I thought it was a tryptamine effect, but perhaps not if you experience this with mushrooms but not DMT.

If I'm not mistaken, baeocystin is in many psilocybin mushrooms at varying degrees. I'll try to do some research to find some specific information on it.

One love
 
To clarify, the spider thing was particularly manifested in superhuman climbing ability. I was able to climb up sheer masonry that would be "impossible" in a normal mental state. (This was over 20 tears ago, before I had any children. Please be sensible 😉 ) On the first occasion I was able to find tiny fingerholds in the pointing of the brickwork while scaling a corner of the house. On another I could see the precise energy paths of the different possibilities for climbing up the slight irregularities in the rendered and painted surface of masonry.

On both occasions I attempted to replicate the feat the day after coming down off the mushrooms and it was not possible - my fingers would simply slip off. (Sorry for 'slipping off' topic a bit, btw!) My hypothesis here is (as I strain to return to the matter in hand) that it was the purge of tears that stripped away the barriers between my egoic day-to-day mode of existence and the levels of oneness where these more remarkable things become possible.

Some may argue that this seems rather far-fetched, but if one considers for a moment, for example, a circus artiste who rehearses their skill eight hours a day for years on end they achieve a oneness with their art and their materials that allows them to perform feats which are impossible for the rest of us. Induced neuroplasticity seems on occasion to provide a shortcut to unexpected manifestations of skill. (Although, it has to be said, I did spend a considerable proportion of my childhood in treetops... predisposition clearly gives a significant advantage.)

Edit: there seems to be very little information about the specific qualities of baeocystin other than that it appears to be active at a similar level to that of psilocybin. A year or two ago, Paul Stamets hinted that there was something very special about baeocystin but precisely what I'm yet to find out. Hopefully this will guide your search a little, VM.

Do these tantalising experiential hints suggest that some combination of psychedelic neuroplasticity and empathogenicity is the key to deeper transformation? It reminds me of how the underground psychotherapists reported favourable results from following up MDMA sessions with a psychedelic like 2C-B or TMA-2. Is that what is occurring in the psilocybin/baeocystin package? And what of the role of the even more obscure norbaeocystin?
 
Df0, I don't find that farfetched at all seeing as I've similar experiences in pushing my body in some manner on psychedelics and being "unable" to when sober. If I'm not mistaken neurogenesis isn't relegated to the production of new neurons, but also the the connections between them. It's almost as if one can push fast forward in a practice to achieve certain abilities (to piggyback off of your example).

I don't have a lot of hope in finding this information, but will try nonetheless. I am aware that Stamets thought of baeocystin as toxic, so hopefully I can come across the kernel you mentioned. Some speculate (based off twitch test in rats) that it is not psychoactive. I am wondering how much of its impact (entertaining the idea it has one) is related to an entourage effect in conjunction with other psychedelics, in particular, other tryptamines. But I think I'm leaning the same direction as you relative to growth potential with these substances.

One love
 
The baeocystin toxicity thing was a false assumption, based on the questionable identification of the culprit species in a case of child mushroom poisoning as P. baeocystis which, on the identification of a novel compound in the specimen, lent its name to baeocystin. As we now know, baeocystin has been found in a wide range of other active species including the widely consumed P. semilanceata. If baeocystin was outright toxic, people would have been dropping like flies already, which clearly they haven't.

Even if the unfortunate child had consumed exclusively P. baeocystis we have to consider that this was a toddler. With such small body size and very likely a relatively higher sensitivity to serotonergic compounds the baeocystin may have tipped the balance in the direction of serotonin syndrome from a general overdose. I'd have to seek out the details of the case before making any further comment, but IMO baeocystin is almost certainly of low acute toxicity, and Jochen Gartz claimed it was active - although some have questioned this.

Do you have some specific references for the baeocystin activity (or lack thereof) in rats?

The other thing to consider, in addition to PEA, is the recent discovery of betacarbolines in a/some Psilocybe species. Mushroom empathogenicity could be a tricky puzzle with multiple variables at play.
 
I have always found psilocybin mushrooms to be more empathogenic and entheogenic than DMT. The visions from mushrooms are generally more colorful and animated as well. It is not that DMT lacks these qualities, as they are qualities shared by both compounds. Other tryptamines such as 4-Aco-DMT also share these qualities and manifest them in similar ways.

When I was exploring DMT and ayahuasca heavily, I was mostly not taking psilocybin. DMT was a faster route etc, but I did miss mushrooms. I feel closer to them and I am pretty happy just growing mushrooms and having psilocybin as my molecule of choice when it comes to the family of DMT's.
 
I also spent my childhood on treetops, DWFZ.

And regarding "superhuman feats" on psychedelics, it's not far fetched at all, it's all what psychedelics are about. I also have done a lot of extreme physical feats (with rue and DMT admixtures), and some were so dangerous I would not even describe them here. It probably helps that I also recently became a father so that I behave myself from now on :) Whatever a person's dispositions, psychedelics are most likely to give them "superpowers" in those areas. Benny Shannon writes about this with regards to ayahuasca. But the boost need not be completely temporary; with disciplined study one can boost their personal practices with psychedelics. Hence one way of understanding the concept "Teacher Plants." Sliding off topic was fun!

Alright so we don't know what contributes to the extra empathogenicity of certain mushroom species like liberty caps.

It's something precious for me. Mushrooms have their place for sure.

Jamie, regarding the lack of color and fullness of DMT compared to mushrooms, my guess is that THH closes the gap even if not exactly in the same way.

As we're on the topic of comparing DMT with psilocybin, I wonder how their neuroprotective actions compare.
 
I'm finding this discussion fascinating. I wonder what causes the difference in empathenogenic experience relative to tryptamines being discussed. Granted, I'm presently the main outlier of those involved in said discussion.

I've seen a chart that shows amounts of psilocybin, psilocin, baeocystin, and norbaeocystin in different mushroom types. Will see if I can find it and share.

One love
 
Seeing as we've brought up norbaeocystin, I can't help but mentioning that its dephosphorylated derivative (which I dub, by analogy with psiloc(yb)in, "norbaeocin") is a positional isomer of serotonin. This leads to the (utterly tangential) question of whether we might encounter the O-phosphorylated version of serotonin.

It is of course the serotonin transporter action that is the principal mechanism behind the empathogenic properties of MDMA; it seems worthwhile to speculate that examining the action of "baeocin" and "norbaeocin" - as well as psilocin - on the serotonin transporter could prove to be productive. It seems likely that the phosphorylated versions will not be able to gain access to the brain but I still wonder if they have a direct site of action somewhere - or even an indirect mechanism through some kind of interaction with phosphate energy chains.
 
Pan. cinctulus is reported to be particularly empathogenic.
According to some sources, it contains 0.7% psilocybin, 0.46% baeocystin and large amounts of 5-HTP and serotonin.
Could baeocystin be the secret behind empathogenicity?
 
I've never come across somebody who is familiar with Pan. cinctulus. From where did you hear about it's empathogenicity, Jagube?

It might be about baeocystin as you say...
 
I had what turned out to be a gentle dose of Pan. cinctulus (the potency is quite widely/wildly variable) some years ago. It certainly had fluffy edges to it in comparison to how a similar level of Ps. semilanceata might feel. The liberty caps would have been more incisive, like colourful liquid metal in comparison with the floaty, warm pink clouds of the Pans, which felt like being wrapped in cotton wool.

But liberty caps can often also contain high levels of baeocystin, whereas Panaeolus species very often contain serotonin and 5-HTP. which I feel clouds the issue a bit (no pun intended).

Should the opportunity arise to be trying Pan. cinctulus again I shall be sure to report back - and I will endeavour to keep my mind free from preconceptions about the experience.
 
Dude, are you comfortable with posting what might reasonably be presumed to be a sample of your handwriting and life-plan there in the background?

What the graph does show us is that liberty caps have the highest baeocystin to psilocybin ratio of all the species tested. Does anyone have the reference for the baeocystin content of Pan. cinctulus (Pan. subbalteatus)?
 
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