EW's Mini A/B with a smaller bottle?

[cinderblock]

Is it possible to use less water for the mini AB in EW's tek?

I have both a 1L and .75L, but if I decided I wanted to use a .75L bottle, could I just reduce the water volume in the first step? For example, instead of 500g water + acid, could I use 300g?

 

[Pixar]

You can always use less, seperate and then add more and seperate again if you are unsure.

Personally I think it would not make a big difference and depending on the acid you are using you can always find the solubility of DMT-(type of acid you use) in water to be sure all the goodies transfer.

 

[cinderblock]

I'm already tweaking the main tek. I'm using a 1.5L bottle, as opposed to 2L. Just easier to find a 1.5L alcohol bottle.

I just wasn't sure if this could also be done with the mini-AB. I'm planning to use Bestine for the mini-AB.

And I'm gonna try adding a sodium carbonate wash at the end.

 

[Pixar]

Bestine is not very good for pulling, use naphta instead.

Bestine is only worth using over other solvents when recrystalizing since DMT is insoluble in it at room temperature.

 

[Li]

There should be no problem scaling down as you have already mentioned (from 2L to 1.5). However, when conducting your first acid baths of the raw bark it is important to use a large amount of distilled or filtered water as it aids in increasing the total ions present in the extraction through osmosis which expands the plant cells via osmotic pressure. This accommodation can be met with either concentrating your acid bath once you have made it, or you can simply conduct two smaller sized extractions.

If you only want to size down for the mini A/B then you should be fine, but make sure you increase the length of time you gently stir the acidic/nps mix to equalize the ratio of contact between the two layers.
Hypothetically a mini A/B only needs to be appropriate to the total dissolved volume of the salt you are working with, but the volume is increased to better the probability of having a total transfer from freebase to salt form in a accommodating period of time.

When swim first used EW's tek swim was particularly perplexed by the proportionality of this tek compared to the others available on the nexus. There are a few pH calculators available online that use the pka/pka and the concentration of the chemicals being used (if you don't want to write the math out in front of you for the conversions) if you decide to slightly lower the amount of base/acid you add (if solubility does not permit the scale of the A/B).

 

[cinderblock]

Bestine is not very good for pulling, use naphta instead.

Bestine is only worth using over other solvents when recrystalizing since DMT is insoluble in it at room temperature.

Wow, good to know. Thank you so much. I would've totally missed that.

I've always just read that Bestine/heptane is better for the final part of the steps, so I figured I'd use it for the mini-AB, but now that you mention it, I guess a mini-AB is really not the same thing as a recrystalization, since with recrystalization, you're heating the naphtha/bestine.

 

[cinderblock]

Hypothetically a mini A/B only needs to be appropriate to the total dissolved volume of the salt you are working with, but the volume is increased to better the probability of having a total transfer from freebase to salt form in a accommodating period of time.

Thanks a lot for sharing that. I had a question about your comment on salt...

A total transfer from freebase to salt form?

I know freebase is the goo and salt is the crystal, but could you please elaborate on what you're trying to say here? It makes sense, but I get the feeling I'm missing the pertinent info.

Also, do you need to boil the acacia in both acid and water? Is it possible the boil just the acacia and water? And then add the acid afterward? This is to prevent the whole place from smelling like vinegar.

 

[FLeP]

He's saying that you don't need precisely as much vinegar/acid solution as stated in the tek but more is used in order to make the conversion happen faster.

In a mini A/B your alkaloids are in freebase form first. Then you add the vinegar to your NPS to convert the alkaloids to a salt and they migrate to the vinegar. Then you base your vinegar and, voila, they are freebase again. Then you pull with solvent again hopefully leaving some junk behind in the vinegar.

 

[cinderblock]

He's saying that you don't need precisely as much vinegar/acid solution as stated in the tek but more is used in order to make the conversion happen faster.

In a mini A/B your alkaloids are in freebase form first. Then you add the vinegar to your NPS to convert the alkaloids to a salt and they migrate to the vinegar. Then you base your vinegar and, voila, they are freebase again. Then you pull with solvent again hopefully leaving some junk behind in the vinegar.

Awesome, thank you so much for that explanation.

I just have one more question I've always wondered while reading teks.

So I read the Max ION tek, and Cyb explains that the DMT molecule is mostly non-polar, but there's one bit of it that changes based on the PH. Am I correct in my understanding?

If yes, then why is the mostly-non-polar DMT attracted to the vinegar acid, when acid is polar? Sure, the one bit (acetate?) of DMT has now turned polar, but isn't most of it still permanently non-polar? In other words, shouldn't the mostly-non-polar DMT still be attracted to the non-polar solvent naphtha?

 

[Pixar]

Hypothetically a mini A/B only needs to be appropriate to the total dissolved volume of the salt you are working with, but the volume is increased to better the probability of having a total transfer from freebase to salt form in a accommodating period of time.

Thanks a lot for sharing that. I had a question about your comment on salt...

A total transfer from freebase to salt form?

I know freebase is the goo and salt is the crystal, but could you please elaborate on what you're trying to say here? It makes sense, but I get the feeling I'm missing the pertinent info.

Also, do you need to boil the acacia in both acid and water? Is it possible the boil just the acacia and water? And then add the acid afterward? This is to prevent the whole place from smelling like vinegar.

Just to clarify : both freebase and salt are crystals when pure.

You can always use HCl (hydrochloric acid) or another acid if you are worried about the smell. Be careful if you use HCL though, read the MSDS (of any chemicals you use for that matter). Concerning your question, it is wiser to boil with the acid added to the water. Adding it afterwards will be less effecient.

 

[Pixar]

He's saying that you don't need precisely as much vinegar/acid solution as stated in the tek but more is used in order to make the conversion happen faster.

In a mini A/B your alkaloids are in freebase form first. Then you add the vinegar to your NPS to convert the alkaloids to a salt and they migrate to the vinegar. Then you base your vinegar and, voila, they are freebase again. Then you pull with solvent again hopefully leaving some junk behind in the vinegar.

Awesome, thank you so much for that explanation.

I just have one more question I've always wondered while reading teks.

So I read the Max ION tek, and Cyb explains that the DMT molecule is mostly non-polar, but there's one bit of it that changes based on the PH. Am I correct in my understanding?

If yes, then why is the mostly-non-polar DMT attracted to the vinegar acid, when acid is polar? Sure, the one bit (acetate?) of DMT has now turned polar, but isn't most of it still permanently non-polar? In other words, shouldn't the mostly-non-polar DMT still be attracted to the non-polar solvent naphtha?

Freebase DMT is non-polar while in salt form is it polar as a whole. DMT is freebased around ph 8.5 if I am not mistaken, but you want at least a ph of 10.5 when basidifying to make sure all DMT is freebased. If emulsions ever occur, add more base or salt. At ph 12 + you should have no problem, unless you shake like crazy. If you ever feel the need to clean your spice with a polar wash make sure you do so with water that as around 8.5 ph (check that number first though, just to be sure), but that won't be necessary if you are doing a mini-a/b.

Don't worry about your DMT-acetate (if you choose to use vinegar) going into your naphta when doing a non-polar wash that won't happen, as I mentioned earlier.

 

[cinderblock]

Thanks a lot. I thought the DMT was permanently "non-polar" with the exception of the one bit that was interchangeable. I guess not.

In the Max ION tek, Cyb tells you dissolve 80g of salt in 200ml boiling water. Then to top 800ml on it after the salt dissolves. Is there a reason for "topping" the salt solution? Or am I reading too deeply into it? Like, can you boil 80g of salt in 400ml and then top with 600ml? The "topping" is optional, in other words? It's really just for the purpose of pulling naphtha at the narrow neck of the bottle, right..?

 

[cyb]

Is there a reason for "topping" the salt solution? Or am I reading too deeply into it? Like, can you boil 80g of salt in 400ml and then top with 600ml? The "topping" is optional, in other words? It's really just for the purpose of pulling naphtha at the narrow neck of the bottle, right..?

No reason, except that the salt will dissolve more readily in hot water...then top up with more water to whatever required amount.
Yes...top up to the neck for easy pulling

 

[Pixar]

Thanks a lot. I thought the DMT was permanently "non-polar" with the exception of the one bit that was interchangeable. I guess not.

In the Max ION tek, Cyb tells you dissolve 80g of salt in 200ml boiling water. Then to top 800ml on it after the salt dissolves. Is there a reason for "topping" the salt solution? Or am I reading too deeply into it? Like, can you boil 80g of salt in 400ml and then top with 600ml? The "topping" is optional, in other words? It's really just for the purpose of pulling naphtha at the narrow neck of the bottle, right..?

It's not necessary, he only does that to make it easier to pull with nps.

I personally don't add more since I use a seperatory funnel.

Glad to help

 

[cyb]

It's not necessary, he only does that to make it easier to pull with nps.
I personally don't add more since I use a seperatory funnel.

Sorry Pixar...it is necessary...you need a certain amount of water in your soup to make the bark mixture less viscous and easy to manage.

I don't understand your rationale using a sep funnel and viscous soup...there is no way you can perform what is essentially an STB with a sep funnel...draining sludgy bark filled soup through a tiny funnel would be almost impossible.

Sep funnels are great for A/B teks where there is no bark onboard after the filtering.

If you are going to advise others on teks...please be sure of your facts, otherwise is on only serves to confuse.

 

[cinderblock]

It's not necessary, he only does that to make it easier to pull with nps.
I personally don't add more since I use a seperatory funnel.

Sorry Pixar...it is necessary...you need a certain amount of water in your soup to make the bark mixture less viscous and easy to manage.

I don't understand your rationale using a sep funnel and viscous soup...there is no way you can perform what is essentially an STB with a sep funnel...draining sludgy bark filled soup through a tiny funnel would be almost impossible.

Sep funnels are great for A/B teks where there is no bark onboard after the filtering.

If you are going to advise others on teks...please be sure of your facts, otherwise is on only serves to confuse.

Thanks for chiming in, Cyb.

I'm kinda confused. A post ago, I got the impression I could top the salt water with less water, as long as it suited the purpose of pulling the naphtha around the neck of the bottle.

But now you're saying it's absolutely necessary to add the exact amount of water.

What happens if the bark soup is too sludgy? Does it interfere with getting the DMT to move to the naphtha?

 

[cyb]

I got the impression I could top the salt water with less water, as long as it suited the purpose of pulling the naphtha around the neck of the bottle. (thats right)

But now you're saying it's absolutely necessary to add the exact amount of water. (no I'm not)

What happens if the bark soup is too sludgy? Does it interfere with getting the DMT to move to the naphtha? (it makes separation difficult)

Yes you are getting confused :d (re-read and pay attention to the wording)
Don't complicate things and just follow the teks' directions to the letter...we write these things so you don't have to worry...
It's all been taken care of

If you are using a smaller bottle just top it up with water to where the solvent will sit and be easily reached.

 

[cinderblock]

I got the impression I could top the salt water with less water, as long as it suited the purpose of pulling the naphtha around the neck of the bottle. (thats right)

But now you're saying it's absolutely necessary to add the exact amount of water. (no I'm not)

What happens if the bark soup is too sludgy? Does it interfere with getting the DMT to move to the naphtha? (it makes separation difficult)

Yes you are getting confused :d (re-read and pay attention to the wording)
Don't complicate things and just follow the teks' directions to the letter...we write these things so you don't have to worry...
It's all been taken care of

If you are using a smaller bottle just top it up with water to where the solvent will sit and be easily reached.

Thanks a lot for the clarification.

I have one more question. It's more of a safety question.

During the shaking/mixing stage with the lye/acid/bark, how often do you need to air out the bottle?

Do you shake for five seconds, and let it air out? Or perhaps every ten seconds? I read there's a lot of pressure buildup, so you need to take the cap off between shakes. I'm just wondering how often, since I'm using a glass bottle, which makes it more difficult to tell how much pressure builds, since you won't hear the pressure escaping when you twist off the lid like plastic bottles do.

 

[cyb]

how often do you need to air out the bottle?

Do you shake for five seconds, and let it air out? Or perhaps every ten seconds? I read there's a lot of pressure buildup, so you need to take the cap off between shakes. I'm just wondering how often, since I'm using a glass bottle, which makes it more difficult to tell how much pressure builds, since you won't hear the pressure escaping when you twist off the lid like plastic bottles do.

Well...first...don't shake, you will form emulsions.
Just roll end over end like a bicycle pedal for 1 minute or so...then release....then repeat 4 or 5 times releasing each time.

You will probably hear a little ..ffft..

Then you can pull off the solvent...add more and repeat.

HERE are all the pictures...just follow them.

 

[Pixar]

It's not necessary, he only does that to make it easier to pull with nps.
I personally don't add more since I use a seperatory funnel.

Sorry Pixar...it is necessary...you need a certain amount of water in your soup to make the bark mixture less viscous and easy to manage.

I don't understand your rationale using a sep funnel and viscous soup...there is no way you can perform what is essentially an STB with a sep funnel...draining sludgy bark filled soup through a tiny funnel would be almost impossible.

Sep funnels are great for A/B teks where there is no bark onboard after the filtering.

If you are going to advise others on teks...please be sure of your facts, otherwise is on only serves to confuse.

But we we're talking about an AB tek not an STB
EDIT : I get it now, in my mind we we're only discussing mini-ab in general and I forgot this was in context of EW's tek and that he leaves the bark in the bottle.

And I do add water I just don't top it off. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.