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First breakthrough with a friend! but no afterglow :(

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moyshekapoyre

Rising Star
Hey folks... so I'm very happy to finally have experienced pharma with my best bud. He was actually considering suicide before the hyperspace journey, but said he felt much better after.

We both took about 50mg DMT fumarate in grapefruit juice, though my MAOI was 300mg moclobemide, and his was 1g of 10x rue + 400mg caapi copy sublingual (I try to overdose newcomers with maoi now since my previous attempts were all failures with them).

We laid in bed together, and I helped him through the first part of it, which terrified him, to get to the place of pure euphoria. We also had some interesting psychoanalysis mixed in there... he was realizing some reasons why he was not happy.
I'm not sure exactly what he experienced, but he said it was the most intense thing he's ever done (and he's done 60mg 4-aco-dmt before).
As for me, I was sooo far gone it was insane. I witnessed the birth of the universe repeatedly, and asked my friend why we came to this planet? Are we here to conquer the humans? I really thought I was a V from the show V, which I have been watching lately.
The trip only lasted a few hours for him, but just as he was coming down, I was going even more insane, thrashing about quite rabidly, knocking things over, and scraping up my face on the bed sheets pretty bad (this is the next day and I look messed up, swollen lip and eyelid, etc). I felt like the reason I was thrashing about was because all of normal reality is an illusion and why should I respect the illusion?
Anyway, I was also back to earth after another hour.

This was the shortest, and most intense aya experience I've ever had (though he said he wishes he'd done MORE!).

The really disappointing part, though, was the lack of any kind of afterglow for either of us. I've searched the web and it seems that sometimes there is no afterglow for no apparent reason? If I were to try to find a reason for this time, the only variable I can think of is that we both had pure spice, whereas before I've never used pure spice, just a crude MHRB extract done with alcohol. Perhaps the pure stuff is absorbed so rapidly that there is none left to provide the afterglow? Yet I'm sure most of you use pure spice and still have the afterglow, so that can't be it.

Maybe it was because we were together, and thus it was harder to feel like we had really died? Usually I am sure I am dying and dead, but this time, since he was there and I could feel him and talk to him, it seemed like I had more reassurance that I was still alive. Hmm... has anyone else noticed the experience differs greatly when done with someone else?
 
Using moclobemide and your friend using rue as your MAOI might be the reason.

My afterglows seem to stem from Caapi, as a high dose of Caapi will give me a similar afterglow.

Rue always leaves me feeling hungover and tired, although it is a superior MAO inhibitor and is more predictible than Caapi.

I know others have different experiences but for me this is how it works...

You could try using real Caapi along with some harmine or rue extract and see how that works.

You might try something other than grapefruit juice as well, as this has possible interactions with metabolizing MAOI/DMT.
 
Hmm, on grapefruit juice, can you link some sources?

This is my favorite method for fb harmala dosing.
 
Hmm maybe I should forget the Moclobemide for my next journey. Too bad, it's so cheap.
Need to buy land and a greenhouse to grow caapi and iboga and stuff.
Well my friend says he did think he got the afterglow, but I don't know, because he did not experience ego death.
After a week his depression and ibs are back so I guess another ceremony is in order. Hopefully he can go deeper. For spring break we will try a medium iboga dose.
 
Btw I am realizing that my Moclobemide trip was much clearer than those I've had with harmalas. I still remember most or all of it 2 weeks later, which is really nice because it makes it more real and more able to help me in my everyday life. But not sure it is worth the trade off of no afterglow, assuming the moc was responsible and not the fumarate as some have suggested.
 
So my friend tells me he feels that he could not fully let go during the experience because I was there with him. This was my feeling as well. He was glad I was there, because he was terrified, but he thinks if he wants to go deep he will have to do it himself.

Just wondering what people's experiences have been regarding this. Are there any couples/friends who do aya together and are reborn together? Do you share the same room or stay in separate rooms until it's over?
 
In regards to the above comment on grapefruit juice possibly interacting.. I was always using fumarates until I had dissolved my harmalas in a shotglass of grapefruit juice (and my fb dmt in another shotglass of grapefruit juice) and that had been by far one of the strongest...scariest....but best yet of my experiences with pharma.

Grapefruit juice can inhibit specific enzymes for other types of substances such as opiates and such but I have never heard of it affecting fb dmt.
 
moyshekapoyre said:
Well my friend says he did think he got the afterglow, but I don't know, because he did not experience ego death.
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You know, it can get kind of "dangerous" (not literally) when you start trying to make the experience so predictive. Quite frankly it's one of the most unpredictable experiences in existence and sometimes some things will happen, and other times other things will happen. You may think that DMT does "this" one day only to find out it also does something of an entirely different nature that you wouldn't think the same amount of the same substance from the same batch on same or different days could do. I've had countless experiences with very heavy, strong and lasting afterglows that by many non-DMT psychedelic users' standards would constitute as "full-on tripping balls" that were never accompanied by ego death.
 
While there are surely those here who will disagree, frankly i think giving someone who is suicidal any psychedelic drug under less than clinical conditions is unpredictable and dangerous and, sorry, but irresponsible as well. That being in the past, however, i can only urge you strongly to get him professional help and not to give him a second dose. If you choose to ignore this advice, PLEASE do not let your suicidally depressed friend go it alone - it could be catastrophic, psychologically AND physically.

I am well aware that tryptamines can have useful therapeutic value, but the way you are going about it, with all due respect to you and your friend's safety, has more to do with craps than therapy, and playing shaman in this instance is playing with your friend's sanity at best, and his life at worst.

Again, please rethink the wisdom of this course of action and take real steps to helping your friend out of the pit he is in - throw him a safety line, not a vine.

JBArk
 
hi jbark.

What do you mean by taking "real steps" to get him some help?

Are you referring to a psychiatrist? If so, that is impossible. He has no money and anyway would never trust a psychiatrist, and for good reason, I might add. My own experience with them has shown me that they are useless for the kind of depression which both my friend (E) and I have shared. Not only a waste of time, but dangerous. Most of these antidepressants have black box warnings on the label, for increasing suicidal tendencies. One retired psychiatrist I know actually told me I should try marijuana. And he prides himself on staying up-to-date on research. I know that marijuana causes depression with long-term use in many people (as I believe has happened to E). I think the point here is that even marijuana can be considered to be more effective than the pharmaceuticals for depression at this point (which are barely better than placebos if you look at the stats).

If you are talking about a psychologist, i.e. talk therapy, CBT or whatever, yes I do think that might do a small amount of good for him if he could afford it. But it is clear to us both that his problem is not that he has a lot of emotional baggage to discharge, but rather a neurochemical imbalance or something of the sort.

One thing he knows works for his depression is fasting. After a few days of not eating, he gets happier for about a week. This is a known effect in neuroscience, whereby the brain goes into survival mode and suddenly life seems worth living. So that may be a safer option, though I'm looking for a more permanent thing.

The only thing that finally reversed my own lifelong depression was ayahuasca, which is why I thought it would be good for him. In fact, it was good for him, though not as long-lasting as I had hoped... I think because he simply did not have the rebirth experience, which might or might not come with repeated attempts. I think it was important to guide him through the experience for the first time, but subsequently I think he should be able to decide if he wants to go it alone. And I think going it alone is probably the best way to experience rebirth, since there is no one to remind you that you are really fine and still alive. Of course it is scary. That's the point.

I do not agree with you that ayahuasca (or iboga, which is my next hope for him, and has already shown great promise in micro-dosing) is some kind of craps game any moreso than life itself. It has shown itself to be truly a wake-up experience for countless people, and to my knowledge, no one has yet committed suicide because of taking ayahuasca. If you have other data, I'd like to see it.

If he were exhibiting symptoms of psychosis then I think it might be reasonable to abstain from the "master plant teachers," and seek more traditional help.

You said something about the way I am going about this being wrong. I.e. that I could be doing this ayahuasca cure in a better way (more clinically?). Care to elaborate? Like low-dose with talk-therapy or something? Would the person helping him be under the influence as well? Do you have any experience to back up your opinions on this matter?

I hope I don't come off as defensive or as brushing you off. If so, just let me know how I can respond more appropriately.
 
@globalswg: your input is appreciated. thank you. i will, however, say that i think the ego-death aspect is extremely important in terms of spiritual/emotional growth, if not the afterglow (though i suspect the afterglow is related to some extent, despite your example to the contrary).
 
By real steps I mean something more concrete, productive and supervised than 2 friends imbibing mind shattering substances together (and now alone) in hopes that some "good" will come out of it (incidentally, this is what i meant by "craps"). Even a "real" shaman would be an improvement over this approach, but, IMO, not much of one, although i am sure that statement will rattle a few feathers.

I am not trying to attack or ridicule you, so I hope you do not take it this way. I just feel very strongly that feeding psychologically challenging substances to someone who is psychologically damaged is rolling the dice - and frankly, in my opinion, the dice are loaded, and not in your favour. Sometimes I think people take the idea that tryptamines can heal too literally, choosing to administer these powerful, challenging, potentially psychosis inducing substances in a little too cavalier a fashion.

Let me be more explicit - I believe there are several levels of depression:

1) the blues, 2) recurring depression, 3) chronic depression and 4) suicidal depression

To be clear, I am not a psychologist, psychiatrist or neuroscientist. These are my terms and not culled from a text book, although I would be very surprised if some categories closely resembling these did not exist in at least one of these disciplines. Maybe someone more qualified can chime in...

I believe, strongly, that the psychological danger of administering mind altering drugs as powerful as the chemical cocktail contained in ayahuasca increases exponentially as you go up this scale. Giving someone a strong dose of aya when they are suicidally depressed is at best unpredictable, and upping the dose and leaving him alone because the first dose improved his mood for a week is not only very dangerous, but is ignoring that after that week he reverted back to his previous suicidal condition - encouraging you to throw the loaded dice again.

I don't know what your depressive condition was, but it sounds like you got lucky. Maybe in your case the dice were loaded in your favour, but how can you, in good conscience, make that decision for another?

And, please, saying that it is as much a game of craps as life is a cop out. I do not have any data to demonstrate the dangers of this course, but I do not think it is a huge leap for anyone who has taken these substances to imagine that someone who is teetering on the edge is easier to push off than someone who is not. Many assumptions there, I am aware. But do you really feel that this is hs last recourse, and that it is a viable treatment for someone who is genuinely thinking of ending their own life?

Or maybe, in your assessment, he is exaggerating for attention, and is not a category 4, but rather a whiny category 2? I would have less a problem with that...

And you say:

"If he were exhibiting symptoms of psychosis"

A person with suicidal tendencies is, by definition, exhibiting clear symptoms of psychosis. So if you agree with this, your course of action is clear.

I really apologize if all this comes across as harsh - it is far from my intention. I am tired, but felt the gravity of this demanded a quick response: I implore you to consider alternatives before you give your suicidal friend a large dose of harmalas and MAOI potentiated dimethyltryptamine and leave him alone to fend off his demons...

I could not feel more strongly about this.

Not to end on a light note, but i have a twisted an expression that I think is appropriate here:

"Get your ducks in line before you fuck your ducks"

My ducks are often not in line, so i often refrain from fuckin' 'em :shock: . A wise course of action, IMO...

Cheers and good luck,

JBArk
 
There is nothing psychotic about depression. It is very important that you understand that. Psychosis is when you can no longer tell reality from fantasy. Depression is when you feel down, shitty, etc. One is about loss of rational thought, the other is about loss of happy emotions.

The reason I believe tryptamines are good for depression is because they often lead to ego-death. After one has experienced dying and letting go and then being reborn, the thought of dying again seems like a waste of time, or at least something they now can do whenever they please, without risk of never returning.

I think there *may be* certain kinds of depression that could be worsened by tryptamines. For example, if your depression stems from traumatic memories you are trying to bottle up and forget, trypts will often bring those to the surface. So would a good psychotherapist, but at least they would stick around to help you deal with the resurfaced feelings/memories.

I remember one erowid report of a guy doing ayahuasca and then running outside and screaming repeatedly, "RAPE!" "HOMOSEXUALITY!!!" until the trip was over. That's an example of what I'm talking about.
 
This doesn't sound safe.

Caapi only brews may be more beneficial until you friend has less self destructive tendencies.

Your friend should also not be left alone when under the influence. Aya is serious stuff and you can't just give your friend a handful of benzo's to come down if he's having a hard time.

LOW dose iboga (1-2g/day for a week) is a better option for depression imo. This is coming from someone who has depression, and has used both aya and iboga extensively.
 
moyshekapoyre said:
There is nothing psychotic about depression. It is very important that you understand that. Psychosis is when you can no longer tell reality from fantasy. Depression is when you feel down, shitty, etc. One is about loss of rational thought, the other is about loss of happy emotions.
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Technically you are correct - depression is not psychosis. I wrote that in a tired state, as I noted. The point I was trying to get across is that there is a fair argument that the "disturbed state of mind" (a part of psychosis) that accompanies suicidal depression can, and often does lead to forms of psychosis. Suicidal depression should not be underestimated - it is not simply feeling shitty as you put it. It is a delusion that the state of death will be an improvement over the state of living (psychosis...?), and should not be diminished through confusion with milder forms of depression (feeling "down" ).

Anyway, I really hope you are exaggerating the situation, because nitpicking my post and disregarding my concern for the safety of your friend to drag me into a debate on a point of semantics could not be further from addressing the issue - the issue being that you are proposing giving:

"... your suicidal friend a large dose of harmalas and MAOI potentiated dimethyltryptamine and leav(ing) him alone to fend off his demons..." (my words)

Please reconsider.

JBArk
 
I've gotta agree with JBark...

Part of being responsible with these substances is knowing when NOT to use them.

Please rethink.
 
First you say I am arguing semantics, but then you go back to thinking of suicidal depression in terms of psychosis. It is not psychotic to hope that death might be better than life. For all you know, it very well may be, especially if you are not enjoying life. Personally, I support a person's right to end their life whenever they choose to do so, though I think they should be helped to continue living if they are open to being helped.

Ayahuasca and Iboga are far more effective, in my opinion, than anything that is offered by western medicine.

I think we have to agree to disagree.
 
With all due respect, no one here is qualified to diagnose depression.

The DSM IV (and thus all practicing therapists) would define a depressive disorder as "a person who suffers from major depressive disorder must either have a depressed mood or a loss of interest or pleasure in daily activities consistently for at least a two week period. This mood must represent a change from the person's normal mood; social, occupational, educational or other important functioning must also be negatively impaired by the change in mood."

DSM IV

Major Depressive Episode

A. Five (or more) of the following symptoms have been present during the same 2-week period and represent a change from previous functioning; at least one of the symptoms is either (1) depressed mood or (2) loss of interest or pleasure.

Note: Do not include symptoms that are clearly due to a general medical condition, or mood-incongruent delusions or hallucinations.

(1) depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.

(2) markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)

(3) significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day. Note: In children, consider failure to make expected weight gains.

(4) insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day

(5) psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)

(6) fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day

(7) feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)

(8 ) diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)

(9) recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

B. The symptoms do not meet criteria for a Mixed Episode.

C. The symptoms cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

D. The symptoms are not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g., hypothyroidism).

E. The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation.

American Psychiatric Association. (2000). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (4th ed., text rev.). Washington, DC
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If your friend meets these requirements, it is advised he talk to a licensed therapist, there are many programs out there to get free/cheap counseling.

Mental health is important, please be responsible.

-Namaste
 
Maybe its repeated so many times and places because its important.

It's your health... far be it for me to dictate your behavior.

I wish you and yours all the happiness in this world.

-Namaste
 
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