No its a by product of the human mind. There is an excellent talk about this here:
The price of life is death. Sin doesn't speed up or slow down death necessarily. Again religious morals that have no real meaning in the real world.
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freedom from religion
- Thread starter burnt
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No its a by product of the human mind. There is an excellent talk about this here:
The price of life is death. Sin doesn't speed up or slow down death necessarily. Again religious morals that have no real meaning in the real world.
You've probably guessed that I agree completely with Burnt. Allow me to explain.
I see a big difference between RELIGION and SPIRITUALITY. I am spiritual, but not religious.
RELIGION
Religion is dogmatic. Believers 'decide' what the truth is, and promote blind faith in their explanation of the world, however far-fetched it is. Everyone else is considered wrong, which I see as rather arrogant. Blind faith is dangerous. People murder each other, sacrifice each other, and wage war on each other in the name of their religions. Religion drives a wedge between different groups of people, and even between people in the same religion when they bicker over who is more virtuous or 'sinful'.
All religions are used by the elite to oppress the rest of society and legitimise power. Pharoahs claimed to be gods. Inca kings claimed to be gods. The Dalai Lama claims to be a god. Aztec and Mayan kings were the high priests. The Pope claims to be god's representative on earth. European kings claimed to rule by 'divine right'. The caste system and practice of sootee was upheld by Hinduism. Christianity teaches devout victims to turn the other cheek for another slap... while the priests burn pagans and 'heretics', or more recently rape and murder Native American children in the Canadian residential schools. Buddhism teaches victims to gladly be cut into pieces because 'nothing is real anyway'. I count buddhism as a religion because it demands blind faith in its dogmatic teachings.
Religion is often so twisted that it become absurdly hypocritical. Try and match the beliefs of Catholicism, for example, with the beliefs presented in the Bible. But even this corruption can seem preferable to when historic practices are followed more closely, as they are in Saudi Arabia for example.
Aside from all this, religion in general is a lie. Without proof, something said to be true should not really be believed. A person who asserts that something is true without proof is a fool. A fool in denial of the truth that they cannot know that what they are teaching is true. No religion has been able to offer proof of it's validity. People say their religion is the right one and everyone else is wrong. More likely that they're all wrong. Science, on the other hand, consistently gives us proof and can predict future events.
Looking at it psychologically, I believe that the concept of god is a projection of the human desire for protection. When all else fails and one is desperate, it is tempting to plead to someone more powerful. This is the child inside you calling for a parent's help. I think Christianity and the other major religions did so well because they also promised love, and we all want love. And eternal happiness, whether it be heaven or nirvana.
SPIRITUALITY
Spirituality, on the other hand, is the quality we are born with that the elite channel into religion for their own ends. Spirituality is curiosity about the big questions. Why are we here? How did the universe begin? What happens when we die? Can I change events with my thoughts rather than my actions (prayer)? Spirituality is free of dogma when not boxed into a religion, which is why philosophers and scientists have got nearer to answering these questions. Spirituality does not require belief in gods. I am a spiritual atheist.
At least, that's how I define the terms. The key is doubt: the most powerful philosophical tool there is. If you admit that what you think might be the truth may not actually be the truth, then this makes you a more tolerent person, because you are acknowledging that your worldview is not necessarily the right one. I believe that the universe probably started with the Big Bang and we then evolved, because that's what the greatest minds of humanity tell us. I would be happy to be proved wrong. Unlike a Creationist with head in the sand, desperately clinging to the old explanation, which is almost undoubtedly wrong given the mountain of scientific evidence.
Lastly, I would like to defer to the experts: in general I believe that the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are to be atheist or spiritual, instead of religious. What does this tell you? Please don't get offended, we all have different qualities that make us special and intelligence is just one of them, and there are different types of intelligence too, I'm talking about the classical understanding of intelligence here, rather than emotional intelligence for example. I'm not trying to intellectually bully... I'm just saying that these people are more likely to be right. Incidentally, this point on intelligence and religion is only a personal observation and I'd be really grateful if anyone knew of any relevent studies.
I see a big difference between RELIGION and SPIRITUALITY. I am spiritual, but not religious.
RELIGION
Religion is dogmatic. Believers 'decide' what the truth is, and promote blind faith in their explanation of the world, however far-fetched it is. Everyone else is considered wrong, which I see as rather arrogant. Blind faith is dangerous. People murder each other, sacrifice each other, and wage war on each other in the name of their religions. Religion drives a wedge between different groups of people, and even between people in the same religion when they bicker over who is more virtuous or 'sinful'.
All religions are used by the elite to oppress the rest of society and legitimise power. Pharoahs claimed to be gods. Inca kings claimed to be gods. The Dalai Lama claims to be a god. Aztec and Mayan kings were the high priests. The Pope claims to be god's representative on earth. European kings claimed to rule by 'divine right'. The caste system and practice of sootee was upheld by Hinduism. Christianity teaches devout victims to turn the other cheek for another slap... while the priests burn pagans and 'heretics', or more recently rape and murder Native American children in the Canadian residential schools. Buddhism teaches victims to gladly be cut into pieces because 'nothing is real anyway'. I count buddhism as a religion because it demands blind faith in its dogmatic teachings.
Religion is often so twisted that it become absurdly hypocritical. Try and match the beliefs of Catholicism, for example, with the beliefs presented in the Bible. But even this corruption can seem preferable to when historic practices are followed more closely, as they are in Saudi Arabia for example.
Aside from all this, religion in general is a lie. Without proof, something said to be true should not really be believed. A person who asserts that something is true without proof is a fool. A fool in denial of the truth that they cannot know that what they are teaching is true. No religion has been able to offer proof of it's validity. People say their religion is the right one and everyone else is wrong. More likely that they're all wrong. Science, on the other hand, consistently gives us proof and can predict future events.
Looking at it psychologically, I believe that the concept of god is a projection of the human desire for protection. When all else fails and one is desperate, it is tempting to plead to someone more powerful. This is the child inside you calling for a parent's help. I think Christianity and the other major religions did so well because they also promised love, and we all want love. And eternal happiness, whether it be heaven or nirvana.
SPIRITUALITY
Spirituality, on the other hand, is the quality we are born with that the elite channel into religion for their own ends. Spirituality is curiosity about the big questions. Why are we here? How did the universe begin? What happens when we die? Can I change events with my thoughts rather than my actions (prayer)? Spirituality is free of dogma when not boxed into a religion, which is why philosophers and scientists have got nearer to answering these questions. Spirituality does not require belief in gods. I am a spiritual atheist.
At least, that's how I define the terms. The key is doubt: the most powerful philosophical tool there is. If you admit that what you think might be the truth may not actually be the truth, then this makes you a more tolerent person, because you are acknowledging that your worldview is not necessarily the right one. I believe that the universe probably started with the Big Bang and we then evolved, because that's what the greatest minds of humanity tell us. I would be happy to be proved wrong. Unlike a Creationist with head in the sand, desperately clinging to the old explanation, which is almost undoubtedly wrong given the mountain of scientific evidence.
Lastly, I would like to defer to the experts: in general I believe that the more intelligent a person is, the more likely they are to be atheist or spiritual, instead of religious. What does this tell you? Please don't get offended, we all have different qualities that make us special and intelligence is just one of them, and there are different types of intelligence too, I'm talking about the classical understanding of intelligence here, rather than emotional intelligence for example. I'm not trying to intellectually bully... I'm just saying that these people are more likely to be right. Incidentally, this point on intelligence and religion is only a personal observation and I'd be really grateful if anyone knew of any relevent studies.
[quote='Coatl]Sure they have non-Christians... I was talking about a Nation that is not predominantly Christian (such as the United States which has many religous groups, but most a Christian).[/quote]
This is because North and South America were conquered and oppressed by Christians. Non-Christians were either forced to accept Christianity by the sword (with those who refused executed), or the luckier converts eventually veered towards the religion of the elite, because it seemed to work for the elite so maybe it'd work for them.
Christianity failed to conquer the Middle East during the Crusades, so the Muslim religion is still around. China was an advanced civilisation so Christians were unable to conquer it. Japan's Shinto religion survived because they were a warrior people protected on an island. Etc. Whereas the Native Americans were decimated by disease and those left were outgunned and tricked by the Christian invaders. Hinduism survived because India, while occupied, was not densely colonised. Whereas Australia became a colony, so the aborigines were virtually wiped out and their religion along with them. That's why all these countries are Christian. And the West itself became Christian because the Roman Empire and later tha Pagan kings saw that Christian populations were easier to control than pagans. Granted there was also the appeal of everlasting life and the (broken) promise of a more peaceful society.
This is because North and South America were conquered and oppressed by Christians. Non-Christians were either forced to accept Christianity by the sword (with those who refused executed), or the luckier converts eventually veered towards the religion of the elite, because it seemed to work for the elite so maybe it'd work for them.
Christianity failed to conquer the Middle East during the Crusades, so the Muslim religion is still around. China was an advanced civilisation so Christians were unable to conquer it. Japan's Shinto religion survived because they were a warrior people protected on an island. Etc. Whereas the Native Americans were decimated by disease and those left were outgunned and tricked by the Christian invaders. Hinduism survived because India, while occupied, was not densely colonised. Whereas Australia became a colony, so the aborigines were virtually wiped out and their religion along with them. That's why all these countries are Christian. And the West itself became Christian because the Roman Empire and later tha Pagan kings saw that Christian populations were easier to control than pagans. Granted there was also the appeal of everlasting life and the (broken) promise of a more peaceful society.
[quote='Coatl]
That is silly, religion encompasses all sorts of different philosophies and spiritual paths. Don't try to act like your religion is better and then therefore... isn't a religion at all.
[/quote]
'Coatl, you are ascribing motivation and intent upon him when he has shown none. He never indicated his philosophy was better, or that he is better in any way. Your are assuming and projecting things upon him that are your own constructs.
That is silly, religion encompasses all sorts of different philosophies and spiritual paths. Don't try to act like your religion is better and then therefore... isn't a religion at all.
[/quote]
'Coatl, you are ascribing motivation and intent upon him when he has shown none. He never indicated his philosophy was better, or that he is better in any way. Your are assuming and projecting things upon him that are your own constructs.
(P.s. you can be an atheist but still enjoy spiritual ecstacy and perhaps even immortality, so don't get depressed by all this! 
)
)
HappyCamper
Rising Star
OK, I'll play along. You ask yourself those questions and what are your answers? If you are an atheist, then you will have none. Why? Because if you believe that you were blindly put on this earth, then all you do have waiting for you is a death with no outlook. I do not appreciate the slandering/grouping of "christians" because that could mean hundreds of sects and religions. The true christianity is in the times of the first century, before it was all plagued with falsehood.
ohayoco, I am curious about what is your belief on how all of this came to be. It seems more likely to win the mega-million-jackpot everyday for a year than to turn an "organic soup" into something as complex as the human body
ohayoco said:
Well said ohayoco, this is very much what I believe as well. There is a fine line between doubt and faith though. In spirituality I think you need to have both of them and keep an open mind. You can certainly doubt it, but if it resonates with you and you cannot prove it then one must rely on faith, if only a little bit. The key is an open mind, and the willingness to challenge and question your own beliefs. No one has all the answers, no one will know the Truth until we die. Then it is either revealed, or it doesn't matter anyway. All you have is your beliefs, and those have to be sufficient for the moment, until you are able to understand more.
You can't have answers without proof. It's better to not know than to fool yourself. My answers: the experts say that the evidence shows that it started with a Big Bang and we evolved from apes... fine, whatever, I'll believe that unless it's disproven. So Newtonian physics aren't the whole story anymore because Einstein and quantum have made our understanding more complete? That's ok too.HappyCamper said:
At the end of the day, why do you need answers? You don't. Stop worrying and enjoy your life! Do as you will when it harms no other. Even if it turns out there is a god, I've lived a good life so I'll be fine as long as he's not an a**hole. And if he is an a**hole, well I wouldn't cower under the tyranny of such a opressor, whatever the punishment. It's not even worth the thought because it's kind of ludicrous to think anything that mighty would have such petty human emotions as anger and pride. Stop worrying and enjoy life
Well, many Christians slander each other saying they're right and the other Christians are wrong, just as I said. Have you read the ENTIRE Bible cover to cover? Few Christians have, which baffles me. But I did, when I was 14, and made notes (and that was after a whole education of RE lessons in which they skirted over the most contradictory and ridiculous bits). And I concluded that it was nonsense, sorry.HappyCamper said:
Read up on the theory of evolution and you might find it easier to understand. It seems a lot more plausible than someone making a little stick man out of mud then breathing on it to give it life, then pulling out one of its ribs and fashioning that into a stick woman then breathing life onto that.HappyCamper said:
HappyCamper
Rising Star
It's called the THEORY of evolution for a reason. If you gathered 100 of these "bright minds" in a room, they would all have different opinions on the matter. Even Darwin himself in various places throughout his book questioned the probability of the events he claimed took place. If these bright minds from around the world are not close to creating any organic material from inorganic, then how can I believe that everything on planet earth was made without intelligence. And don't get me started about the big bang. That's like looking at the Mona Lisa and saying that it was made by throwing random splashes of pant on a canvas.
1) I have to agree that Buddhism is a religion. Why? Because to follow Buddhism it's necessary to have FAITH in the existence of a state/fact which you can't (easily, at the moment) demonstrate.
2) However I think Buddhism serves to counter burnt's suggestion that all religion is bad. Buddhism COULD also be classified as a sort of science: it presents the HYPOTHESIS that it's possible to achieve states of consciousness and perception which demonstrate to the that one that his former state of consciousness and perception were IN FACT severely limited. One is free to test that hypothesis anytime--and it IS testable, but only in an individual and personal manner. It's only failing as a science then is that it's "knowledge" isn't transferable. There's no phenomenological reason that any and all true things must be transferable.
It differs from most other well-known religions because it does not require faith in things that CANNOT be verified. That's the important difference.
Any religion that asks that you believe in something that cannot be verified is internally logically corrupt.
2) However I think Buddhism serves to counter burnt's suggestion that all religion is bad. Buddhism COULD also be classified as a sort of science: it presents the HYPOTHESIS that it's possible to achieve states of consciousness and perception which demonstrate to the that one that his former state of consciousness and perception were IN FACT severely limited. One is free to test that hypothesis anytime--and it IS testable, but only in an individual and personal manner. It's only failing as a science then is that it's "knowledge" isn't transferable. There's no phenomenological reason that any and all true things must be transferable.
It differs from most other well-known religions because it does not require faith in things that CANNOT be verified. That's the important difference.
Any religion that asks that you believe in something that cannot be verified is internally logically corrupt.
HappyCamper said:
Sorry, that's completely wrong. A scientific "theory" is nothing other than a EXPLANATION which ties together disparate observations under one cause (or a collection of related causes). The current theory of evolution is basically the confluence of the two processes of natural selection and random genetic change (mutation, gene movement, and chromosomal changes). This is separate from the "fact" of evolution.
The "fact" of evolution (observations of change over time in animal species) is fully accepted by scientists. The "theory" of evolution is quite possible the most STRONGLY SUPPORTED theory of all science. CERTAINLY far better supported than the current theory of gravity, for example.
HappyCamper
Rising Star
ohayoco, yes I have read the Bible cover to cover and that is exactly the point. Noone is being oppressed if that's what you mean. If I read that I should stray from infidelity and premarital sex, is that God oppressing me? Well, let's look at it closely. If I do as is said, I am then protected from things like STDs, unwanted pregnancies, emotional distress, and family/marital breakup. Who other than me is receiving the full benefits of leading a moral life? I certainly wouldn't find and guidelines on the subject anywhere else in today's world.
'Coatl
Teotzlcoatl
Well... what do you think I believe in? Some man that lives in the clouds that throws lighting at me? Come on...
Evolution is FACT, however it is open to interpretation. I believe God created Man through evolution.
Duh! That is why I asked! Many people hate Christians because they live in a Christian Nation!
That is completely incorrect!!! Aegle help me out here! There are plenty of religions that are NOT like that! Obviously YOU were raised in a Christian Nation!
As SWIMfriend stated Buddhism is almost like a science! I suggest everyone in this thread read "The Universe in a Single Atom", especially you Burnt!
[quote='Coatl]
Damn... read "Universe in a Single Atom" and argue with the Dalia Lama about that!
[/quote]
Read the book! Very thought provoking and very interesting.
Damn... read "Universe in a Single Atom" and argue with the Dalia Lama about that!
[/quote]
Read the book! Very thought provoking and very interesting.
I used to be an atheist, but no longer, DMT was its demise for me as a philosophy.
My problem with atheism is that there is so much circumstantial evidence that points to something greater than this random collection of atoms which my ego labels as "Me". It is not currently provable in an objective sense, but that does not mean it never will be. There are just too many unanswered questions which I don't believe science will ever be able to answer.
Evolution is a good theory, the best one we have so far...but it too has its flaws.
My problem with atheism is that there is so much circumstantial evidence that points to something greater than this random collection of atoms which my ego labels as "Me". It is not currently provable in an objective sense, but that does not mean it never will be. There are just too many unanswered questions which I don't believe science will ever be able to answer.
Evolution is a good theory, the best one we have so far...but it too has its flaws.
Christians have oppressed those of other and no religion for thousands of years. Violently.HappyCamper said:
You could be oppressing yourself. God would have to exist to oppress you. You could be oppressing yourself because you choose to do all your religion dictates without question. However, if you're truly happy not having premarital sex, then you're not oppressing yourself whatsoever in that instance.HappyCamper said:
Condoms also protect from STDs and unwanted pregnancy. I personally would be emotionally distressed if I was still a virgin at my age, so I am protecting myself from that by having premarital sex! I don't want to 'protect' myself from the joy of making love either.HappyCamper said:
There you go assuming that your way of living is the only 'moral life'. Exactly my point on how religion breeds intolerence.HappyCamper said:
I have been having premarital sex my whole life and I'm very happy that I have. Sex is one of the joys of life. I lead an ethical life. As a dedicated green, I consider myself to be more ethical than you... because my ethics are not the same as yours.
When one goes around preaching that someone (who isn't hurting anyone) is comitting a sin- a recent topic in that thread, but it could apply to your example of premarital sex too- then actually one is hurting oneself, as well as society, and of course those one rails against unjustly. Why? Because one is filling oneself up with negative emotions by pouring one's disdain on others, by fearing and chastising others who don't follow a certain god's rules even if their actions are ethically justified outside of religion. Hate, fear and piousness etc corrupt from the inside out. A negative person attracts other negative people, and warns away positive people. Karma does not have to be a mystical concept- I call it 'practical karma'. I have experienced it myself unfortunately, but I'm learning from my mistakes.
I'm not perfect I know... my rants about Christianity are born out of frustration. But I get the feeling there is great sadness inside you- even simple things like the name and avatar that you have chosen give it away. I really hope that you stay here, open your mind and learn from others. I'm not asking you to drop your religion or anything, just some of your negativity. Pot calling kettle maybe, but they say it takes one to know one!
---
I didn't really answer your earlier question fully earlier. What do I think will happen when I die? I don't know and I'm in no hurry to find out, because I cherish every moment of my life and I'd love to live forever. I suspect (and fear if I think about it) that when I die that'll be the end of me. Loss of consciousness. But I have a thin hope that my consciousness will live on somehow. Perhaps through infinite recurrence, to live all my joys and mistakes again in ignorance of my past lives. Or better, perhaps consciousness is separated from matter- a different dimension maybe- and my consciousness will continue. My experiences with loss of consciousness due to fainting, sleep and substance-induced ego death and unconsciousness make mea little pessimistic about that one though. Of course I'd rather just attain immortality as I am now, but I've only got 50-odd years to go and I think it'll take science a little longer to achieve that feat.
As for god, I am an atheist... but then everything is made of the same stuff- energy- and all connected, all the same, so maybe you could call all of existence 'god', ourselves included. One big mass called existence. Just as the cells of my body go about their seperate duties within my body which I understand as 'the whole', I go about my business within existence (or god or whatever you want to call it) that is 'the whole' at the ultimate level.
These are just thoughts, and I might be wrong. I hope I'm wrong and the truth is more desirable than my suspicions. Contrast that attitude with the adamant views of the religious.
As for what started the Big Bang... that's about as tough as the question 'who made god?' I eagerly await the next scientific breakthrough. Scientists, philosophers and psychologists are my 'priests'... well more teachers, with the plants as SWIM's priests.
HappyCamper
Rising Star
Why is it that you keep saying "Christians"? Thats like looking at a brown person and assuming they're a terrorist. I have read the bible and view it as a way for me to be a better person. I am not some Mormon if that's where you are going.
HappyCamper said:
You have said that you follow the Bible, so that makes you a Christian. Yes, it is a broad definition, and incompases many different sects, but unless you specify which sect you personally adhere to, Christian would be the appropiate term, as it is the best apparent quantifier of your views.
In addition, your analogy of brown people is a false one.
I also see you continue to compartmentalize groups of people, passing judgement upon them. If you truly want to be like Jeebus, tolerance and acceptance of others right to their beliefs would be your greatest virtue to learn.
There are no flaws in evolution. Yes some parts are missing and we don't know the entire history of life (that would be pretty much impossible). But the theory is solid. There are no problems with it.
Coatl you suggest that god has intelligence and thus designed life. But I ask how can intelligence exist before anything else existed? Complexity arises from simplicity that's the beauty of evolution. Evolution explains how EVERYTHING we see can arise from a simpler system. It explains the evolution of complexity from simpler forms.
The only thing evolution doesn't explicitly explain is 1. how the first life got started and 2. how the universe got started. I find it highly unlikely that some god like being came to earth and throw down a few bacterias and said "GO!". Thats just silly. There are many ways how the first life got started. All that had to happen was a few nucleotides join together in solution and replicate themselves. RNA can do this spontaneously. So can peptides. Both which can form in space and in the conditions of the earths early atmosphere.
The beginning of the universe is a more complex question but still there is no reason to say it was created. If it was created by something then what made that something? It doesnt' even make sense to ask that question.
Such as...??
Well no I don't need to read the book to take on buddhism. I will completely explain my problem with buddhism and spirituality later. I would love to debate the dali lama to pieces. He isn't the reincarnation of anything expect some sperm and egg and nutrients gathered throughout his life.
But good classifications of spirituality and religion oyahoco. When I refer to both I will refer to them based on those definitions. But none the less I still object to spirituality which I will cover when I cover buddhism.
More to come...
Happy camper sorry but since this is the only place where I will do something like this I must point and laugh aaaaaaahahhahhaahahaha. You are so very wrong about morality and religion. Premaritial sex is a sin aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaa. This is all in good fun but yea this kind of thing really makes me laugh. :lol: :lol:
Coatl you suggest that god has intelligence and thus designed life. But I ask how can intelligence exist before anything else existed? Complexity arises from simplicity that's the beauty of evolution. Evolution explains how EVERYTHING we see can arise from a simpler system. It explains the evolution of complexity from simpler forms.
The only thing evolution doesn't explicitly explain is 1. how the first life got started and 2. how the universe got started. I find it highly unlikely that some god like being came to earth and throw down a few bacterias and said "GO!". Thats just silly. There are many ways how the first life got started. All that had to happen was a few nucleotides join together in solution and replicate themselves. RNA can do this spontaneously. So can peptides. Both which can form in space and in the conditions of the earths early atmosphere.
The beginning of the universe is a more complex question but still there is no reason to say it was created. If it was created by something then what made that something? It doesnt' even make sense to ask that question.
Such as...??
Well no I don't need to read the book to take on buddhism. I will completely explain my problem with buddhism and spirituality later. I would love to debate the dali lama to pieces. He isn't the reincarnation of anything expect some sperm and egg and nutrients gathered throughout his life.
But good classifications of spirituality and religion oyahoco. When I refer to both I will refer to them based on those definitions. But none the less I still object to spirituality which I will cover when I cover buddhism.
More to come...
Happy camper sorry but since this is the only place where I will do something like this I must point and laugh aaaaaaahahhahhaahahaha. You are so very wrong about morality and religion. Premaritial sex is a sin aaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaa. This is all in good fun but yea this kind of thing really makes me laugh. :lol: :lol: