German drug laws and chemical sniffers - advice needed

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Dear Nexians

I have a question for those who are versed in German legal contexts. It has happened that I was screened at a German airport for "verbotene Sachen" (lit. forbidden stuff), having my clothes and the insides of my bags swiped with a chemical sniffer, and put in an analyzer. Which in turn thankfull gave zero alerts, I was profusely apologized to and sent on my way. (Yea I'm a clean freak.)

So... still, I'm planning on moving to Germany (I think it's relatively safe to air that I'm based in the EU), and would like to know more about German drug law and this airport procedure. So I'd like to hear from people who are either in the know about how things go because they are lawyers or activists, or from people who also had their clothes swiped, and in their case there was an alarm.

What I'd like to know is...

What happens if that sniffer test comes out positive? I reckon my bags would have been ransacked, but I didn't have anything on me. If the search finds literally nothing, what can happen? Am I let on my way with a stern look, or can I be required to give a urine sample, or would I be required to give legal testimony about where I think the drug residue got on my clothes, etc..

And, worse case, what happens if someone is caught with a small amount of drugs, clearly intended for personal consumption? What if they are not a German national? - in terms of being arrested or just having the drug confiscated, and whether one is looking at possible prison time or just a fine, etc.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Good question, sorry to not be able to answer it per se...

I was always under the impression that the swabs were principally for the detection of explosives residue as things were being swabbed before boarding - although this was in the UK, where it was never explicitly stated what the swabbing was for. It's not unlikely for me to be mistaken here, but it seems to be a more sensible priority than busting pot heads. Whatever it is, it's certainly used as a justification for a thorough search.

It also bears thinking what kind of technique they're using exactly. Is the swab simply placed into a mini spectrometer of some kind (UV/Vis; IR; Raman etc.)? Or does it perhaps have some kind of specific reagent(s) applied to the end? What are its detection limits? What would be the likelihood of false positives in each case?

Proceeding beyond a luggage/body search in the case of a positive swab seems like legally shaky ground - what is the status of the security personnel who are performing the swab? Are they border police or just some hired corporate monkeys?

In short, just don't take contraband through airports. If you use drugs that are illegal at your point of departure, arrival or transit, scrupulously check your luggage, garments and personal effects before departing for the airport!

 

[dragonrider]

I do know, that for each and every german citizen, it is always, under any circumstance, forbidden to consume any illegal drug. Meaning that for a german citizen it is even forbidden to smoke weed in amsterdam, canada, or california. Even if it would be strictly for medical purposes. Even when you are very ill, and there is no other drug available.

I don't know exactly how strict they apply the law, but the law itself is very strict.

Germany is a federation though, just like switserland or the united states. Some states are more liberal than others. Nordrhein westphalen, hamburg and berlin are the most liberal states. The rest is more conservative, and the eastern states are all very conservative.

I would say that at this moment, all of europe is politically unstable. Far-right and conservative parties are on the rise almost anywhere. So unfortunately, wherever you would decide to go in europe, the future regarding your civil liberties is very uncertain. And not in a positive way.

 

[leratiomyces]

Ion mobility spectrometry - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Both explosives and drugs are possible.

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

I do know, that for each and every german citizen, it is always, under any circumstance, forbidden to consume any illegal drug. Meaning that for a german citizen it is even forbidden to smoke weed in amsterdam, canada, or california. Even if it would be strictly for medical purposes. Even when you are very ill, and there is no other drug available.

I don't know exactly how strict they apply the law, but the law itself is very strict.

Well this is the same for every single country of the world where the possession and/or consumption of drugs are illegal. (Consumption presupposes possession, you can't consume something you don't possess.) It's because being the citizen of a country obliges you to obey the laws of that country, wherever you are. For example if you're a British national, and you murder someone on international waters, you can still be convicted for murder by a British court under British law.

Looking at drug use, this is mostly a non-issue, as unless you legally incriminate yourself, like by making a video of you smoking weed in Amsterdam, and then giving yourself up at a police station, you won't actually get indicted, as the German police doesn't have spies in Dutch smartshops.

Also, something being illegal is one thing, the severity of penalties and the way it is handled is another thing. Like smoking weed is illegal in both Germany, Holland (yes!), Spain and the Philippines; in the Philippines you can be shot dead on the spot for it, in Holland nobody cares as it's legally classified as "tolerated crime", exempt from persecutio, in Spain as far as I know you get fined, and well, I'm curious what happens in Germany. I know there are differences between Bundesländer, so say, I wonder what's up in Berlin.

Are you looking at a full-blown criminal prosecution, or something more like a traffic offense, a slap on the hand and a fine? Do they usually raid people's homes after being caught with small amounts? (In my country they do.)

And still, I'm curious about the airport screening procedure. The guy was not a cop, he was in flight security uniform, so something like a TSA agent. Still, there are many cops around, so I guess it wouldn't be unrealistic to assume they could get involved easily.

 

[brewster]

Hey,
I can't answer all your questions, but at least give you some more info. About the airport procedure, I don't know at all. But for the rest:

- This may be a fine point, but: I'm pretty sure that it isn't actually illegal to consume weed et al in Germany. What's illegal is the possession - if they catch you with a joint, you're possessing that.
So, if they do a blood screening or something, and it turned out that you consumed illegal substances A, B and C, first of all, you won't be punished directly. But there is some law that allows to take people's driver's licenses, which is done often in such cases. This shouldn't concern you though.

- If they catch you, what ensues depends largely on the substance and the state. In Germany, there's a "minor amount" (Geringe Menge) defined. If the catch you with something that doesn't go over that threshold, police / the federal agencies have the option to let you go without punishment, which then happens almost always if you don't have a record.
For weed, this can be up to 15 grams, especially in Northern states. The other extreme is the South, where you can be punished for the smallest amounts, less than a gram.

- And then yes, if they catch you with a substance in your possession, there is the option to raid your place of living. I only know about German residents, not people of other nationalities. In Bavaria it's not so uncommon that police will catch someone with 0.5g of weed and go raid their flat. In the North, this normally doesn't happen.

Generally, non-weed drugs are considered "hard drugs" and the reactions are stricter. But if the amounts are small and you have no record, in most cases, you will get a fine or even only a warning. There's very little tolerance especially with Cocaine, but you won't go to prison for minor amounts, not even in Bavaria.

I don't know what happens when that kind of airport test is positive. Probably depends much on the circumstances. You might get searched, drug tested or even raided - but if they don't find a substance in your possession, I can't imagine that much will happen.
Generally, interest in psychedelics is significantly lower than with things like meth, cocaine, amphetamines and weed. It's quite unlikely they'll test for that, and even if they catch you with minor amounts, the chances of you getting a harsh reaction are very slim. No guarantee, of course...

But the worse parts are "hard drugs", things like fake money and explosives, and any kind of commercial activity. If they can prove that you sold, or even worse, provided minors with even the smallest amount of classified substance, the punishment will be drastically more severe. I imagine this to be the case in most countries, though.

Bottomline: if you're careful and see that you don't carry more than 1-2 consumption units of weed or a psychedelic substance, you certainly won't go to prison. I don't know about things like Visa and working permits though.

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

Thanks for the wisdom Brewster!

I'm pretty sure that it isn't actually illegal to consume weed et al in Germany. What's illegal is the possession - if they catch you with a joint, you're possessing that. So, if they do a blood screening or something, and it turned out that you consumed illegal substances A, B and C, first of all, you won't be punished directly.

In some countries the logic goes this way: the test came out positive, so you consumed drugs. To consume the drugs, you had to possess them, so you're charged with possession. The evidence for possession is the positive test.

It's something to keep in mind! If German law really doesn't treat it like this, that's a very good thing.

 

[Jagube]

Well this is the same for every single country of the world where the possession and/or consumption of drugs are illegal. (Consumption presupposes possession, you can't consume something you don't possess.) It's because being the citizen of a country obliges you to obey the laws of that country, wherever you are. For example if you're a British national, and you murder someone on international waters, you can still be convicted for murder by a British court under British law.

That may apply to murder, but does it apply to drugs?
Does the drug law say it's illegal to posses a classed substance:

1. within the British territory, regardless of nationality
2. by British citizens, regardless of their location in the Universe (well, I guess what happens inside black holes is unenforceable)
3. both of the above?

If someone gets arrested in London for drug possession and it turns out they're a German citizen, the British police won't just let them go on the basis that they're not British, right?

And how come Sting, Bruce Parry, Graham Hancock and other celebrities are still free?

 

[dragonrider]

In the 90's i used to hang out a lot with germans because one of my best friends was german (i lived nearby a NATO airfield) and they used to be pretty paranoid about being found out. They told me that as a german citizen, you could get yourself in big trouble if the government would find out you had been smoking weed in the netherlands.

 

[Cactus Man]

I do know, that for each and every german citizen, it is always, under any circumstance, forbidden to consume any illegal drug. Meaning that for a german citizen it is even forbidden to smoke weed in amsterdam, canada, or california. Even if it would be strictly for medical purposes. Even when you are very ill, and there is no other drug available.

I didnt think I could hate the modern state of Germany any more than I already did, turns out I was wrong.

Cringe-City USA Population: Me

:?

No wonder Merkel hasnt been making public speeches much these last few years....

 

[PsyDuckmonkey]

That may apply to murder, but does it apply to drugs?
Does the drug law say it's illegal to posses a classed substance...

YES it applies to the entire penal code of any country. The law usually states it's illegal to do X. Now, it's not specified where and for whom, but generally it goes like this: it applies to everyone within the borders, except those under diplomatic exemptions, and then it applies to all citizens everywhere in the universe. The latter is usually not enforceable, and usually no effort is made to enforce it, not just in black holes but usually anywhere beyond the borders, but that doesn't change the legal facts.

In fact, those who wish to obtain a US permanent residency are retroactively obliged to have observed the US penal code their entire lives, under penalty of having their application denied.

Heck, even if you just want to VISIT the US for a week, under the visa waiver programme, you're obliged to have complied with US drug laws (specifically drug laws) your entire life!

I didnt think I could hate the modern state of Germany any more than I already did, turns out I was wrong.

Cringe-City USA Population: Me

:?

No wonder Merkel hasnt been making public speeches much these last few years....

Dear Cactus Man, I didn't start this thread to bash Germany, which is where my family is rooted and one of the few places on Earth where I feel a sense of being generally okay.

As I said, this is NOT specific to Germany, it's the same with the US, or any other bloody country of the planet. On the opposite side, kindergarten boys aren't convicted as sex offenders in Germany, nor does the police dig in your personal trash to run a drug test on your used tampons, and most importantly, you are almost guaranteed not to be shot dead by the police unarmed.

Germany is very rule-oriented, and the strictness might seem off-putting at times, but overall it's about an order of magnitude better place to live than any Anglo-Saxon country. So please take your shit-talking home and look around the massive dystopia of a country you happen to be living in.

 

[Cactus Man]

That may apply to murder, but does it apply to drugs?
Does the drug law say it's illegal to posses a classed substance...

YES it applies to the entire penal code of any country. The law usually states it's illegal to do X. Now, it's not specified where and for whom, but generally it goes like this: it applies to everyone within the borders, except those under diplomatic exemptions, and then it applies to all citizens everywhere in the universe. The latter is usually not enforceable, and usually no effort is made to enforce it, not just in black holes but usually anywhere beyond the borders, but that doesn't change the legal facts.

In fact, those who wish to obtain a US permanent residency are retroactively obliged to have observed the US penal code their entire lives, under penalty of having their application denied.

Heck, even if you just want to VISIT the US for a week, under the visa waiver programme, you're obliged to have complied with US drug laws (specifically drug laws) your entire life!

I didnt think I could hate the modern state of Germany any more than I already did, turns out I was wrong.

Cringe-City USA Population: Me

:?

No wonder Merkel hasnt been making public speeches much these last few years....

Dear Cactus Man, I didn't start this thread to bash Germany, which is where my family is rooted and one of the few places on Earth where I feel a sense of being generally okay.

As I said, this is NOT specific to Germany, it's the same with the US, or any other bloody country of the planet. On the opposite side, kindergarten boys aren't convicted as sex offenders in Germany, nor does the police dig in your personal trash to run a drug test on your used tampons, and most importantly, you are almost guaranteed not to be shot dead by the police unarmed.

Germany is very rule-oriented, and the strictness might seem off-putting at times, but overall it's about an order of magnitude better place to live than any Anglo-Saxon country. So please take your shit-talking home and look around the massive dystopia of a country you happen to be living in.

Oh for the record im not cringing at the Germanic people, nor am i lacking in cringe for the rest of the world. Just saddened to hear that this negative situation exists in Germany because its quite unneeded and unhealthy for the populace.

Dont take the fact I dont approve of the way the German government operates to be me expressing disdain for Germans or expressing approval of other peoples.

Im sure we can agree on that?

Im not shit talking anyone, I simply feel uncomfortable about the state of the German government (as well as most of the world).

Shit talking by nature is something that does not come from a place of wishing to see people prosper, it comes from a place of hatred.

I would approve of nothing more than the liberation of the world from the oppression of tyrants.

 

[dragonrider]

I personally have known many german people and i have been there often, as i explained. I have become quite fond of the country and it's culture.

It may be a lot smaller than the USA, but it is every bit as complex. Like america it is a federation with huge regional differences, for instance.

I know that recently, germany has had a lot of bad press in america, especially from the right-winged press. I can assure anybody from america though, that germany is not about to become a sharia-state or an islamic caliphate, looking at crime statistics, it is still a very safe country, especially compared to the united states itself, and it is also not true that white people have become, or are about to become a minority.
There also is no agenda to replace the german population, to turn the entire german population into trans or homosexuals, or to destroy the german culture.

So, merkel is, contrary to what some americans may believe, no new hitler, mao or stalin. She is not a socialist but actually a christian conservative.

She is, like many germans these days, old though. Germany has a rapidly aging population. After japan, germany has the oldest population in the world.

That IS a problem. It has lead to economic and cultural stagnation.
The german car manufacturers are behind in the electrification of their products, and i don't see any drug, including cannabis, becoming legal in germany anytime soon. And in many german cities, the streets are empty at 21.00 in the evening.

That is all very unfortunate ofcourse. But it is still a great country with a very rich and interesting culture.

 

[Cactus Man]

I have my reasons for being unhappy with the politics of Germany and it is in no way a reflection of my feelings towards Germans.

I feel exactly the same about so many nations it would be silly to list them all.

If I sounded as if I was trying to rip on Germanic culture I apologize because as a matter of fact Germany has one of my favorite cultures historically and I could talk for hours on end of how many things I admire in them historically.

The fact that it was largely Germans who fostered the Christian reformation in order to broach the subjects of science and religion, the fact that they have had some of the smartest scientific minds in the field of botany and medicine and the fact that a nation smaller than california has effectively changed the entire scope of the human race with its inventions and discoveries is absolutely amazing to me.

But if you notice none of that has anything to do with the subject matter of this thread, which is why initially I stayed on topic and mentioned how I am deeply angered by the fact that such a nation is enforcing laws on its citizens even when they are outside of that nation entirely.

I mentioned to my family that Germans cant smoke weed in a weed legal country and they thought I was making stuff up. It sounds so silly and backwards even boomers wont believe it.

I think we should be allowed to express a hatred for the oppression of peoples, I think we should be allowed to hate ignorance and the fostering of unhealthy, detrimental politics.

 

[brewster]

Hey guys,
I recently talked to an expert and raised the subject. This is what I've been told:

The legal situation at this point is that is definitely not illegal to consume controlled substances in Germany! So it doesn't matter if it happens on German soil or in another country. This means, until this point, nobody has been punished based on a positive drug test alone.

Be aware that this is, to a certain point, theory. There can be many complications:
- If you're caught smoking a joint, or admit having smoked a joint, you can be convicted for possession. Every word can count in situations like this, so don't say anything to the police without a lawyer.

- The fact that your driver's license can be taken away is a completely different story. This is done all the time based on positive drug tests.

- There are also certain professions for which you can get in trouble.

- If you're not careful, your flat might be raided, and chances are, there will be SOMETHING that can get you in trouble.

 

[Cactus Man]

Thanks for the clarification on that.

Its much like how in the USA cannabis is still federally schedule 1 but when a person is prosecuted for possession of cannabis the sentence does not mach the sentence that a person would receive for any of the other schedule one substances, yet the reason the substances are scheduled to begin with is to legally make the sentencing for them all equivalent.

The reason that is never upheld though is because in actual practice of law it is regarded that the sentence for a pound of heroin be much greater than a pound of cannabis because that is regarded as completely unreasonable even by the people who "retain" (by not removing cannabis from schedule 1) the law stating they are both schedule 1 substances.

Its such a freaking silly goose game with the legal garbage, really helps whittle away at a persons soul if you fester on it all (been there).

Glad though that so much of the world is working towards the respect and honest public presentation of psychoactive botanicals as of late though!