Glass Vessel Questions

[ConsciousFeeder]

Hello all,

Get ready for a few questions. I've done three extracts now and these are a few observations that lead to more questions for me.

I want to know what to look for in a glass vessel during extractions. I don't care to use plastic during my extractions for anything besides perhaps the lid. I have seen to many photos of plastic contaminated material to even want to try. The size of the vessel isn't of the up most importance but ideally would be big enough for 100-200g extractions.

I currently have an old liquor bottle with a plastic screw top. The only thing about it is that it doesn't specify what type of plastic the cap is made from sadly.

I have another glass vessel that has a metal cap with some type of enamel coated onto it. The bottle originally was used as a growler for beer. I don't want to use this vessel due to the cap being metal and the enamel coating the cap.

What do you look for in your glass vessel and why? Or where do you find your glass vessels.

I was thinking of going to a local brew supply store and seeing what type of glass vessels they carry and figuring out exactly what type of plastic or metal the lids are made of.

Also is there any graph of information that outlines what type of plastic is fine to come in contact with the materials from your standard Noman's STB? I've seen a bunch of people using HDPE but what about the other types?

It is well documented that Sodium hydroxide slowly reacts with glass to form sodium silicate. How many extracts do you use a single glass vessel for normally, assuming you are doing a heat bath per pull? Do you avoid letting STB's sit in glass vessels for lengthy periods of time due to the production of sodium silicate?

Thank you for your time. :d

 

[Entheogenerator]

I've had mason jar lids degrade from rolling basified solution with xylene.

I always use new lids for every extraction. They're cheap and conveniently sold individually.

It might not be a bad idea to switch to a different vessel. I mean, the degrading rubber seal has to go somewhere... I would be willing to bet that your end product has some amount of that rubber seal in it. :?

 

[dooby]

Hello,

Why are most people rolling or shaking their basic solutions when pulling?

Is there anything wrong with stirring? Then why do all these laboratories have magnetic stirrers and not shakers?

Stirring would, at least, avoid any contact between basic solution or NPS and plastic or metal lids, rubber seals etc...

I can imagine a single glass stirring rod not being a very efficient tool, but I'm thinking of fabricating a handle that holds 2 or 3 glass stirring rods to maximize "stirring efficiency"...

Also, when stirring, the reaction vessel could be left untouched rather than having to pick it up, roll it and put it back several times during the extraction process...

I admit, I'm super-paranoid about exploding glass vessels, in my mind it's not a question of "if" but "when" this is going to happen to me (Newton's Law always comes first, and then it's Murphy's...)

PLUR

 

[ConsciousFeeder]

I've had mason jar lids degrade from rolling basified solution with xylene.

I always use new lids for every extraction. They're cheap and conveniently sold individually.

It might not be a bad idea to switch to a different vessel. I mean, the degrading rubber seal has to go somewhere... I would be willing to bet that your end product has some amount of that rubber seal in it. :?

This is precisely what I would like to avoid any type of unwanted rubber or plastic just based on my choice in extraction vessel.

Hello,

Why are most people rolling or shaking their basic solutions when pulling?

Is there anything wrong with stirring? Then why do all these laboratories have magnetic stirrers and not shakers?

Stirring would, at least, avoid any contact between basic solution or NPS and plastic or metal lids, rubber seals etc...

I can imagine a single glass stirring rod not being a very efficient tool, but I'm thinking of fabricating a handle that holds 2 or 3 glass stirring rods to maximize "stirring efficiency"...

Also, when stirring, the reaction vessel could be left untouched rather than having to pick it up, roll it and put it back several times during the extraction process...

I admit, I'm super-paranoid about exploding glass vessels, in my mind it's not a question of "if" but "when" this is going to happen to me (Newton's Law always comes first, and then it's Murphy's...)

PLUR

I think the best thing you could probably do instead of making up a 3 glass stirrer tool would be to just buy or make your own magnetic stirrer. I've been looking into how to make them and researching prices on mag stirrers but just haven't been able to justify the purchase to myself yet.

A mag stirrer can be made really cheap with pretty basic parts: magnets from some old hard drives, old or new computer fan, 12v power supply, and a casing for the setup. You can buy adjustable voltage 12v power cord for an added upgrade of adjustable speed. It would increase your stirring efficiency while reducing your contact with lids, which seem to be the problem on a few vessels mentioned already in the thread. Only thing I'm not certain of would be the best choice for a stirrer.

I do share your fear of glass vessels breaking. I've wondered a few times what would happen if it broke while doing heating baths due to pressure buildup or the glass weakening. This has made me think and take a few preventative measures to ease my mind a bit. Doing the extraction in a stock pot I don't mind losing, vinegar close with the lid off, always wearing gloves, always wearing eye protection, always wearing a respirator, and doing the extract over a tub or tote are a few preventatives that I do to prevent the solution from getting too far if the vessel does break.

you're correct, sodium cations do react with glass to form sodium silicate, and the reaction is slow at room temp. of course, this is a function of dissociation. there will be some sodium hydroxide salt in solution.

the further down the cation groups (on the periodic table) you go, the easier it is for the salts to dissociate (thus, a stronger base), and the greater potential for degradation to occur (ex. CsOH)

Just did a little search and found that sodium silicate is readily soluble in water. That's another +1 for me to the sodium carbonate wash.

 

[○]

http://vinumvita.com/wp-content/uploads/image/2011/07/Carlo-Rossi-Paisano-Table-210x263.jpg

These. Rossi wine jugs.

Add you bark, add your base. Add water to jug until plant/base mix is near the bottom of the neck. Once you do that, you can add your solvent. The 'neck' part of the jug holds the NP solvent perfctly, so when you go to pipette your solvent off there's literally no hassle. These wine jugs FTW.

Also, they're perfect size to stick in a crockpot for a hot water bath.

They come in a 1.5L size and one that's a little bigger.

Im tellin you guys, these jugs rock!

much love,
tat

 

[dooby]

I do share your fear of glass vessels breaking. I've wondered a few times what would happen if it broke while doing heating baths due to pressure buildup or the glass weakening. This has made me think and take a few preventative measures to ease my mind a bit. Doing the extraction in a stock pot I don't mind losing, vinegar close with the lid off, always wearing gloves, always wearing eye protection, always wearing a respirator, and doing the extract over a tub or tote are a few preventatives that I do to prevent the solution from getting too far if the vessel does break.

You may want to look into omitting the heat baths as it has come to my attention that a difference in temperature between the basic solution and the non-polar solvent "pulls" alkaloids into the solvent more efficiently than having both at the same temperature...

Apart from the security measures you already mentioned, I'm also planning on having some sawdust (or similar absorbent) nearby in case my reaction vessel should break while not in its tub...

I'm currently looking into ways to limit the time spent working with a basic solution to an absolute minimum but it will take some time to get empirical evidence to support my theories... I'll probably post about this in a separate thread in order to ask for help from my fellow Nexians...

PLUR

 

[Randomness]

Hello,

Why are most people rolling or shaking their basic solutions when pulling?

Is there anything wrong with stirring? Then why do all these laboratories have magnetic stirrers and not shakers?

If you use a magnetic stirrer and a bit of heat (I set mine to 70c) you can do the whole extraction with two five min pulls. Trick is not to stirr to fast or the solvent gets lost and takes a few days to come back out.

Last time swim swam with this he got a 2percent yield with 2 pulls. There was a vinegar soak involved which was then watered down and stirred for twelve hours. Slow addition of salt then of base untill colour change is finished then 30ml naphtha is added stir for 5 mins let settle for 2 mins pull and repeat. The naphtha will drop crystals as soon as it hits the dish it becomes supersaturated. Third pull showed no alkaloids (I always blow on the naphtha and look for clouding) yielded nothing on freeze precipitation and upon evaporation yielded a reddish waxy oil that was inactive and insoluble in water.

This process involves barely any time spent with the basic mix which can be disposed of within 20 mins of the addition of the lye.

Just for the record the fumes from naphtha will ruin the rubber seal on a mason jar even if the solvent does not contact as a liquid.

 

[dooby]

This process involves barely any time spent with the basic mix which can be disposed of within 20 mins of the addition of the lye.
.

This is exactly the kind of info I was hoping for, thanks a lot!

What ratio of solvent/bark did you use? 1 ml per gr? Or less?

I'll remember not to create a vortex when stirring

PLUR

 

[Randomness]

0.3 to 0.5ml solvent to bark ratio and you need about x7 to x10 the amount of water to bark to get a good stir going. Ie 100g bark 30 to 50 ml solvent per pull and 700 to 1000 ml of water.

It's crazy fast for the pulls doing it like this.

There are second hand lab quality stirrers on that auction site. Way better than any homemade thing and designed to survive a spill without electrocution or stetting things on fire.

I got mine after a mason jar shattered as I tried to stir it in a hot water bath. It went everywhere and was a nightmare. Now I use a borosilicate erlenmeyer flask with a shot glass as a lid and a stirrer. Much more fun.

Only downside I can see is you can only do relatively small batches so if you want to extract 500g you will have trouble stirring. Personally I don't need all that spice at once so I do 100g at a time and get about 2g or so.

 

[dooby]

I love the idea of using a shotglass as a lid for an erlenmeyer...please, keep 'm coming!