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Harmalas and LSD?

Migrated topic.


Rising Star
Does anybody have any experience with harmalas and LSD? There’s not much I can find online, but the little I do seems to suggest there is less amplification of LSD with harmalas than they cause with DMT, psilocybin, and mescaline… but I would like to hear more.

I was consideriny dosing harmalas part way through LSD and vaporizing DMT…..
I did once 25ug after taking a tea of Caapi leaves, felt more like 50-75ug.
Other than that Ive smoked Caapi leaves while coming down and it "softened" the experience.

With the little experience I have, Id say its a nice combo, but it seems to amplify it a lot.
No personal experience here, but read a lot about this topic.

User report suggest that harmalas might lessen the effects of LSD. It is a lysergamide, and not a tryptamine which works a bit differently.

Reason why this might be happening us that harmalas boost dopamine and NE as well, LSD does that as well on it's own. Together, it induces a sobering aspect.

Psilocybin and DMT don't seem the release dopamine and NE more then you naturally would, and their chemical structure is really closely related to seratonin/melatonin. Thus a big time potantiation by MAOI-A.

Mescaline is probably not affected much by it as well, since it's a phenylethylalamine.

There seems to be confusion around it because San Pedro feels more potent then Peruvian Torch for example, and San Pedro does contain naturally occurring MAOIs.

Let's not forget that it contains generally more alkaloids, all of which contribute to the "dreamy" psychoactive effects, and alter the mescaline effects. The MAOIs in San Pedro might alter the character of the experience, but potantiation is again unlikely.

Back to the main topic...

Doing it part way through seems less wasteful because the LSD will already release its full effects by the time you hit the DMT.

Consider vaporizing the harmalas as well, because you need much less this way and it lasts shorter then orally, might dampen the LSD trip less as well? From a theoretical POV, this seems the best bang for the buck.

Keep us posted, I wish you a pleasant yourney.
Just want to mention that Shulgin notes mescaline is definitely potentiated by harmalas. In most reports online the combination is regarded as safe and potentiating, but I did run across one where they mentioned serotonin-syndrome like symptoms - phenethylamines and harmalas can have dangerous side effects. Mescaline appears to offer more grace than something like MDMA, but, from that one experience, not 100% safe.
Harmalas do work with lsd. It potentiates and alters the experience. One use is to take harmalas somewhere midway the trip to give it a boost.
I've taken harmalas an hour into the LSD trip a few times now before smoking DMT. I enjoy it. It seems to smoothen LSD out somewhat (I'm only taking around 50mg), calming the stimulation.

I haven't tried taking it before the LSD, so I can't say for sure whether or not it would significantly extend the LSD effects or not, but I doubt it would by much unless its a large dose of harmalas
I cannot really confirm the general amplification character of Harmalas, as I think they just slow down metabolism, but if 1000 molecules approach your brain, then how will these feel like 2000 if they are just slower in degrading over time?

Commonly a DMT Trip on harmalas is described as actually more relaxing, as the same experience just feels extended in time, making it actually more relaxed, as you can spread out the experience, while being more gentle in the same time frame.

That's at least what I felt :surprised therefore I feel like Harmalas mostly just slow down metabolism, but so far I did not really feel any big potentiation. Therefore stuff that anyways hits you strong after X amount of time and has a pretty long effect (= LSD) will not be altered in a strong way, that was what I felt. Taking Harmalas and then LSD did not do much, also the same with mushrooms.

Both will anyways be longer-acting than Harmalas itself, so the MAOI effect will be gone when you anyways will be on the decline of your trip, that's why I never felt any real synergy with long-lasting tryptamines :?
I have taken harmala's with acid a couple of times. In my experience, there is not realy a synergy here. I would say that if anything, the harmala's made the LSD less visual and on some occasions more stimulating/speedy, while on other occasions, more relaxing.

The main difference was in the source of harmala's and dose.
I tend to find rue more stimulating, while caapi is more sedative, and in combination with LSD, less tends to be more in my view.
The more harmala's you take, the more they will start to dominate the experience.

I find especially rue to be quite dominant in combination with LSD. Caapi is much more subtle.

Potentiation is never something i personally experienced with harmala's and acid though. More an alteration of effects.
Interesting. I’m getting the sense that there’s a lot of variation. Some people find potentiation, some just alteration…. Guess I’ll just have to see what it’s like myself.

What I was hoping to achieve with the combination was a longer duration in the DMT space (not more intense but longer in duration), launched from the platform of LSD. The LSD launch point being used less to make it “more powerful”, and rather less of an abrupt break from totally sober to height of psychedelia.
Fwiw, this i believe is the answer "We found that genetically determined CYP2D6 functionality significantly influenced the pharmacokinetics of LSD. Individuals with no functional CYP2D6 (i.e., poor metabolizers) had longer LSD half-lives and approximately 75% higher parent drug and main metabolite 2-oxo-3-hydroxy LSD area-under-the-curve blood plasma concentrations compared with carriers of functional CYP2D6. Non-functional CYP2D6 metabolizers also exhibited greater alterations of mind and longer subjective effect durations in response to LSD compared with functional CYP2D6 metabolizers. No effect on the pharmacokinetics or acute effects of LSD were observed with other CYPs. These findings indicate that genetic polymorphisms of CYP2D6 significantly influence the pharmacokinetic and subjective effects of LSD." - Genetic influence of CYP2D6 on pharmacokinetics and acute subjective effects of LSD in a pooled analysis - Scientific Reports

The CYP2D6 liver enzyme is potently inhibited by Harmalas, along with CYP1A2 at the least. In my experience with 2D6, as well as 1A2 substrates, there is potentiation of those substrates by the CYP inhibition of the Harmalas, as an example i take a sleep medicine at night called Tizanidine which is metabolized by CYP1A2 which the Harmalas potently inhibit, and so normally without Harmalas/CYP1A2 inhibition i'd need 8 to 10mgs of the Tizanidine for the sedative effect i'm looking for, whereas with the Harmalas/CYP1A2 inhibition i only need 2 to 4mgs of Tizanidine for the same effect, the same also applies to Caffeine but i don't have an exact dosage measurement on that, i just know a few sips of Caffeinated soda can feel more like a cup of Coffee or even 2 or 3 cups of Coffee, depending. So the same also applies to CYP2D6 substrates.

Thing about the CYP inhibition by the Harmalas though is, it moves around, depending on dosage, so as the Harmala dosage increases, the duration of the Harmalas lengthens out, and so too does the CYP inhibition timeframe, which the CYP inhibition timeframe moves with the duration and as such the potentiation is there during certain times and not there during others, which it seems there's two main CYP inhibition phases, the first is when you first take the Harmalas, and then the second one i guess after the Harmalas metabolize into their metabolites, and so the potentiation should be noticeable when the CYP substrate and the Harmalas are taken at the same time or approx close together, while the 2nd phase of inhibition is, ime, usually around the 4th hour which depending on the dosage then can go up to 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 hours, haven't particularly noticed the CYP inhibition around 12 hours post-Harmalas, though it may happen, but i usually take the Harmalas regularly and let the reverse tolerance build up and the Harmala dosage just gets stronger and stronger until it eventually hits a wall of sorts (and by that time the side-effects are long gone and it feels as clean as a medicine), but i can't say i've ever noticed the heaviest dosages possible to consume inhibiting it around hour 12, i think hour 10 seems to be the cut off.

Although the timeframe for the CYP inhibition, as well as the duration of the Harmalas, could be different if you were to consume multiple Harmala dosages within a certain timeframe, but i've usually only ever dosed the Harmalas once a day until lately i've been dosing em' twice a day (12 hours apart), and a few times i did try 3 times a day, but i think if you were going to dose Harmalas multiple times to stretch out the duration and CYP inhibition, you'd have to do here and there during the main dose. Another reason could be because Harmalas themselves are metabolized by CYP2D6 and so they inhibit their own metabolization (which could also play some sort of a role in the reverse tolerance perhaps), and so if you're consuming the Harmalas during a certain timeframe you'll catch the CYP2D6 inhibition and will thus potentiate the Harmalas in terms of dosage but also in terms of duration, although the duration potentiation/lengthening seems to depend on catching the CYP inhibition at it's max, whereas a lot of the times i've noticed CYP substrates being potentiated in terms of dosage, but not duration, the increase in duration of CYP substrates is rather difficult to pin down even though the dosage is potentiated, which ime in the past i've felt that taking the CYP substrate at the same time as the Harmalas is likely the best way to go about potentiating the CYP substrate both in dosage and duration, at least for my Tizanidine.

So as far as LSD goes, i don't think the MAO-A inhibition is going to potentiate it, even Moclobemide is somewhat of a CYP2D6 inhibitor apparently, although i'm not sure how potently compared to Harmalas, so i imagine Moclobemide might be a little difficult as well to discern potentiation of LSD via MAO-A inhibition, so that to me leaves the CYP2D6 inhibition, which should be able to be put to the test via other potent CYP2D6 inhibitors, if we could find em', which i've been curious about myself for trying to potentiate the Harmalas so that maybe the duration will lengthen out and potentially even it's gut MAO-A inhibition window (which is transient and ime lasts up to about an hour and a half to two hours after a dose of Harmalas, then gut MAO-A goes back to normal, as evidenced by lack of oral DMT activation) which could allow for an extended window of being able to re-dose the oral DMT.

So all in all, it's the CYP2D6 inhibition of the Harmalas, which the CYP inhibition timeframe/window moves around depending on dosage, although ime taking them at the same time could give max potentiation, but the point is for the substrate to come into contact with the active max CYP2D6 inhibition.

PS - With my usual dosages of Harmalas (moderate to high/heavy), i've personally found hour 6 and hour 8, respectively, to be approximately the right timeframe for the 2nd phase of CYP inhibition, with heavy heavy Harmala dosages the inhibition timeframe moves up to hour 10.
With harmalas and DMT, I think it's less about potentiation and more about a synergy. Harmalas really shine in larger smoked/oral amounts with vaped DMT. It adds it's own dimensionality to the experiences. The combination feels like the harmonics or a large choir vs DMT on its own feeling more like a soloist

I haven't taken a large amount with LSD but so far it just seems to smoothen out the rough edges and relax the experience
universecannon said:
With harmalas and DMT, I think it's less about potentiation and more about a synergy. Harmalas really shine in larger smoked/oral amounts with vaped DMT. It adds it's own dimensionality to the experiences. The combination feels like the harmonics or a large choir vs DMT on its own feeling more like a soloist

I haven't taken a large amount with LSD but so far it just seems to smoothen out the rough edges and relax the experience
I agree. Harmala's do add something to the DMT experience.

But i personally find that what harmala's add to DMT, in a way LSD already has of itself. Just like mescaline.

So this is my very personal and subjective opinion, but i find that LSD and mescaline have very little to gain from (large quantities of) harmala's. Mescaline a bit more than LSD, because mescaline is a bit of an empathogen as well, and small quantities of harmala's emphasize that aspect of it a bit.

But LSD very much has it's own narrative. For me, LSD goes very well with a lot of other stuff, but not so much with harmala's. It is not realy complementary.

With DMT, harmala's realy do add an extra layer. With shrooms as well.
It's hard to find the right words, maybe it's a sort of emotional connection or an openness to the experience that shrooms and DMT seem to lack a bit by themselves. They are very pure and straightforward psychedelics. Especially smoked DMT tends to just overwhelm you with pure psychedelia. And harmala's realy do help to make you connect to that or open up to it, i find.

But LSD and mescaline already tend to have that emotional connection or mind opening quality by themselves.
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