Harmalas potentiate or attenuate spice??

[Jash]

Hello friends,
This is my first post in the Nexus. I’m relatively new to hyperspace, I have visited a few times over the last three months or so. It has been quite amazing and I’m feeling very grateful.

I’m not sure if the Welcome Area is the best place for my post, but I’m not a full member so I don’t have many options

I started with the sandwich method and would use about 25mg spice and 50mg powerdered caapi vine. So a 2:1 ratio of vine to spice. This seemed to work pretty well as an MAOI, softening and lengthening the journey. I didn’t have much difficulty with breaking through using this method through a pipe or bong. More recently I’ve been making Changa and playing around with different ratios of Harmalas based on forum posts for ratios. I made a couple fo batches one with a ratio 0.1:1:1 and the other 0.2:1:1. These are obviously much higher in harmalas content that the sandwich method I was using above, but still pretty low harmala ratios i think from the reading I’ve done. Most people seem to use at least 0.2:1 ratios in Changa if I’m correct?

I find that with this amount of Harmalas I get very little effect from the spice if I’m taking my usual amount in change of 25-30mg. The experience is pleasant but much much weaker and nowhere near breakthrough. I thought maybe I was just super sensitive to harmalas, but a couple fo friends of mine have had similar experiences to me. So I’m curious about others’ experience with harmalas and there effect of ATTENUATING spice. I came across only this one forum thread that really covered this topic:

Research that suggest MAOI could attenuate effect of DMT - Harmalas - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I would have posted here to continue the discussion but couldn’t due to being a new member. Anyway, I find the discussion here very interesting and it seems to fit with my experience. That being that harmalas actually attenuate (diminish) the effects of spice. So ideally one wants just enough to create MAOI but not too much otherwise much more spice is needed for the same strength of experience.

But it is only a short discussion, with limited contributors, and it’s hasn’t had any new contribution for years. So it seems most people have a quite difference experience of harmalas I guesss? So I find it quite surprising and interesting and would welcome anyone’s input whether personal experience or neuroparmacological knowledge etc.

Many thanks

 

[Jagube]

I'm also under the impression that both harmalas and THH attenuate the effects of DMT. When I've had a lot of either (orally), I haven't felt the (oral) DMT effects so much.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've seen no reduction in effect with oral DMT personally, it's as obviously noticeable as it should be, very intense, very powerful, never noticed a reduction in effect, if anything, it just gets stronger and stronger as the Harmala dosage increases.

I also haven't noticed any reduction in effect when using truly Harmala-heavy Changa, just make sure you have a good dosage of DMT and you should be good to go.

 

[Jash]

I've seen no reduction in effect with oral DMT personally, it's as obviously noticeable as it should be, very intense, very powerful, never noticed a reduction in effect, if anything, it just gets stronger and stronger as the Harmala dosage increases.

I also haven't noticed any reduction in effect when using truly Harmala-heavy Changa, just make sure you have a good dosage of DMT and you should be good to go.

What ratio would you consider to be harmala heavy Changa?

And would you feel you need the same amount of DMT as if you were smoking enhanced leaf / pure Xtals etc ?

I may try increasing the dosage next. As I mentioned with the changas ive made, the 25-30 mg of Spice isn’t doing much, but maybe if I increase to 35-40mg something will change. But that then doesn’t feel like a very efficient use of spice

 

[Jash]

I'm also under the impression that both harmalas and THH attenuate the effects of DMT. When I've had a lot of either (orally), I haven't felt the (oral) DMT effects so much.

Yeah I’ve read something like this before. That it is difficult to get DMT to be orally active because you need such high amounts of Harmalas to perform the MAOI function in the stomach, and this means the attenuating effects become very strong...

Do you have any comparable experience with smoking or do you only use the oral ROA

 

[Brennendes Wasser]

So I'm in a hurry so I did not read everything above, I just want to give my opinion:


For my understanding Changa is a senseless way to do it. Harmalas need much higher temperature, you cannot evaporate both at the same time efficiently and therefore possibly either not use fully potential of your harmalas or burn your spice, which will reduce strength and make it taste sick and possibly unhealthy.
Also Harmalas never really dissolved well for me, no matter what I do.

Every mg of Harmala reduces the mg of Spice, so to have the Harmala effects you lose more of the 'important' effect of your Changa. Either you had to smoke more to get the same Spice amount of you will have a less intense experience in terms of spice.



So what can be the solution?

Just EAT the Harmalas 30 minutes before.

Done.




Ok a bit more explained:

Step 1 - Make a capsule with 150 - 250 mg of Harmalas (so you talked about powdered vine, you will know how much is useful for full effect when eaten or you could ask somewhere or simply create Harmalas on your own, its easy).

Step 2 - Eat it ... ;D

Step 3 - Wait 30 minutes

Step 4 - Start smoking ONLY Spice on herbs = 'Infused Herb'

This way you get much further with your herbs as you already ingested the harmalas.

Good thing: They last the WHOLE SESSION!

No reason to ever go back. Also you can apply less heat to your Infused Herb. Less burning, less plastic, less unhealthy stuff.

Changa only has the advantage to have everything in 1 paket. But whats the deal of not just eating it? You can eat as much as you want ... and it cannot be 'harsh' this way hehehe

 

[Jash]

Thanks for your response

A question

Every mg of Harmala reduces the mg of Spice, so to have the Harmala effects you lose more of the 'important' effect of your Changa. Either you had to smoke more to get the same Spice amount of you will have a less intense experience in terms of spice.

When you say every mg of harmala reduces the mg of spice are you referring simply to the volume, in terms of the ratios of harmalas to spice to leaf? Or are you referring to attenuation of spice by the harmalas?

Yes I will certainly experiment with sublingual and oral harmalas at some point soon. So far though I haven’t got plenty of harmalas to play with and the extraction is more laborious than spice extraction.



Also thanks for the link in you signature. Very interesting. Is this research you have done yourself?

 

[FranLover]

This works if you are using pure freebase harmine/harmaline, either from Rue or Caapi. (You can use powdered vine for a tea and drink that before smoalking. Aya's spirit is true!) 1:1:1 would make an extremley heavy harmala changa. Generally it would be something like this: 450mg leaf(mullein), 300mg dmt, 150mg harmine/harmaline. And then the dose would be something like 60mg-120mg, (maybe a bit more but take it easy, OD'ing sucks) of that 900mg batch. Of course all of this is how it works for me.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've seen no reduction in effect with oral DMT personally, it's as obviously noticeable as it should be, very intense, very powerful, never noticed a reduction in effect, if anything, it just gets stronger and stronger as the Harmala dosage increases.

I also haven't noticed any reduction in effect when using truly Harmala-heavy Changa, just make sure you have a good dosage of DMT and you should be good to go.

What ratio would you consider to be harmala heavy Changa?

And would you feel you need the same amount of DMT as if you were smoking enhanced leaf / pure Xtals etc ?

I may try increasing the dosage next. As I mentioned with the changas ive made, the 25-30 mg of Spice isn’t doing much, but maybe if I increase to 35-40mg something will change. But that then doesn’t feel like a very efficient use of spice

Pretty much Harmala-heavy means i just dumped some freebased Rue or Harmala extract on top of some DMT-enhanced leaf and smoked it, sometimes i'd even use actual Rue seed. I never measured out my dosages for Changa, i just smoked enough Harmalas that made even the smallest amount of DMT quite noticeable which the same applies to oral use as well, the more Harmalas you use the less DMT you'll need, the less Harmalas you use the more DMT you'll need.

 

[Brennendes Wasser]

Yes I meant that with "every mg of Harmala it reduces the mg of Spice" by volume or better weight.

It is like this for me:


If I can easily smoke 60 mg of Changa and everything above is too harsh ...

Then adding MUCH harmalas will reduce the amoutn of DMT.

Like 20 mg of 60 mg are harmalas, then its likely only 20 mg of DMT.

If I EAT HARMALAS and then smoke 60 mg of Changa which could be 30 mg of DMT, it will be much nicer.

I have so smoke the SAME amount and get STRONGER effects.

Therefore I always promote in any case to eat the harmalas, except if you dont have the time to wait 30 minutes or longer between ingestion or smoking.



A 'Harmala Heavy' Changa would indeed be something like 1:1:1.

I would recommend doing something like 1:1:0,3

Or even (DMT:Herbs:Harmalas) 2:1:0,5

Yes this is very low herb count. But who cares? The herbs are only the base. The *effect* of the herbs should not matter, if you could still increase the spice amount to have a stronger Changa that will make you only need to smoke less. This should always be more worth than a nice peppermint flavour, but a weak DMT effect.


One more thing and this is very important:

Who even tells you that a 'heavy' Harmala blend is perfect in terms of Harmala effect?

You just add so much that the effect is good, but that it does not make the ratio to DMT toooo little.

But who tells you that a heavy Harmala blend is the highest Harmala effect that you can get?

I tell you that even with a harmala heavy blend you could still get more harmala effects.

Ok, its not clear if you also WANT this. But the good thing about eating is, that you can eat ANY amount.

250 mg of Harmalas should make full inhibition. And this full inhibition will be greatly higher than any normal harmala blend smoked.

It can make a long 'fading out' of your whole trip. Very nice ... so this is the 2nd reason: You can even get a stronger effect, not only smoke a more spice-potent Changa.


Yo and the signature stuff is done by me! I have a lot of other stuff to be measured, but sadly I am not currently in the position to use all those instruments again ... A friend of mine could do it, but it seems that he also gets new competencys and therefore I dont know when to continue this big thread ... : \

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Isn't it also important to consider the relative efficacy of the oral versus smoked routes for harmalas? Someone somewhere on the forum stated that smoked harmalas have a stronger subjective potency, one might imagine due to bypassing hepatic metabolism and perhaps improved absorption kinetics compared to the oral route.

So if one decides to make changa it might be best to infuse one's herbs with the DMT and then sprinkle the harmala freebase on afterwards, from a physical pharmacological point of view. (My experience with changa is distinctly limited so pardon me if I'm reinventing the wheel or talking claptrap!)

 

[FranLover]

Isn't it also important to consider the relative efficacy of the oral versus smoked routes for harmalas? Someone somewhere on the forum stated that smoked harmalas have a stronger subjective potency, one might imagine due to bypassing hepatic metabolism and perhaps improved absorption kinetics compared to the oral route.

So if one decides to make changa it might be best to infuse one's herbs with the DMT and then sprinkle the harmala freebase on afterwards, from a physical pharmacological point of view. (My experience with changa is distinctly limited so pardon me if I'm reinventing the wheel or talking claptrap!)

I agree. Making enhanced leaf then sprinkling harmalas on when ready to use is pretty practical and effective.

 

[Somebody]

Had really nice experience with GVG by first loading DMT on top of steel mesh and then harmala freebase on top of that. Get the idea?
It was very deep, it was slowed but in full force. Something you might consider when wanting to go "deeper". Overall the experience lasted about 20mins in breakthrough state, opposed to regular 5min tops.
Effects of harmalas were much shortlived compared to, for example, to drank rue tea.

Good luck!