Harmine/harmaline/THH question

[igorcarajo]

So I did an experiment following the comments in the “VDS protocols” thread, but something went wrong at the end, I think. I obtained freebase harmine/harmaline mix from syrian rue seeds by performing several iterations of basification, acidification, manske, rinse and repeat. To this harmine/harmaline freebase I added pure zinc powder and let it react and give off gas for like 30 hours. Then I filtered the excess zinc. Then, following An1cca’s suggestion, I used sodium bicarbonate to precipitate the harmine and zinc ions. To the filtrate I added sodium carbonate and precipitated, presumably, THH. So far so good. Now, I dissolved the harmine precipitate in vinegar and then I added ammonia to precipitate the harmine and leave the zinc ions in solution. So far so good, maybe. So then I decided to do a manske on the harmine just to see what happens. I dissolved the harmine in 50% water/50% vinegar, then I added 15 g of salt per 100 ml of liquid. Now, this time after adding the salt instead of the liquid remaining clear, it got clouded quickly and soon something white precipitated. Can somebody explain to me why this happened? Thanks.

 

[Sakkadelic]

this happens when the solution is concentrated and not hot enough, the harmalas will crash out immediately in tiny xtals form making the solution look cloudy, if you bring the solution to a boil it should clear up completely and as it cools down slowly the needle like xtlas will properly form. i encountered this multiple times recently and every time it turned clear by bring it to boiling/near boiling temps

 

[igorcarajo]

Thank you!

 

[ava69]

Igorcarajo, one way to make it: One way to make tetrahydroharmine - Collaborative Research Project - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[igorcarajo]

OK, another question: what is the usual range of concentrations of Harmine and Harmaline in syrian rue seeds? After my experiment, starting with 68 g of seeds, I ended up with 1.3 g of (presumably) THH, and 0.75 g of (presumably) Harmine. Do those numbers look more or less in the ballpark? I was a little surprised because I thought syrian rue had a lot more harmine than harmaline, so I expected to end up with a lot more harmine than THH. Thanks.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Sorry I can't provide the precise data in this moment, but as far as I'm aware harmaline tends to be the principal alkaloid in Syrian rue seeds so your result is not altogether surprising.

The THH should show a blue fluorescence in solution, less intense than the yellow-green of the harmaline /harmine mix. Can you confirm this?

 

[igorcarajo]

Thanks for the response. So if I take 200 mg of harmine/harmaline freebase made from syrian rue, I’m taking mostly harmaline. That would mean that the 200 mg is quite a strong dose, no? I thought 200 mg harmine or 100 mg harmaline was enough to inhibit MAO.

 

[BongQuixote]

OK, another question: what is the usual range of concentrations of Harmine and Harmaline in syrian rue seeds? After my experiment, starting with 68 g of seeds, I ended up with 1.3 g of (presumably) THH, and 0.75 g of (presumably) Harmine. Do those numbers look more or less in the ballpark? I was a little surprised because I thought syrian rue had a lot more harmine than harmaline, so I expected to end up with a lot more harmine than THH. Thanks.

It varies by seed source, but in my experience with about a dozen extractions done, I would say it averages very close to 50/50 between harmine and harmaline (verified with a microscope by looking at the crystals post separation). Turning the harmaline into THH added some weight to it for me, maybe 20% or so extra. Your results seem reasonable imho.

There is no MAOI effect difference between harmine and harmaline from the studies I've read. 200mg harmine gives the same MAOI as 200mg harmaline. However, 200mg harmaline is a lot crazier in other ways then 200mg harmine. I prefer to go heavy on the harmine and THH and just throw in a little harmaline for fun. Or just do straight harmaline for a different kind of experience.

 

[Jagube]

It varies by seed source, but in my experience with about a dozen extractions done, I would say it averages very close to 50/50 between harmine and harmaline (verified with a microscope by looking at the crystals post separation). Turning the harmaline into THH added some weight to it for me, maybe 20% or so extra. Your results seem reasonable imho.

For me and apparently for many folks it's closer to between 40:60 - 45:55 harmine:harmaline.

The harmaline -> THH reduction shouldn't have added 20% weight. It should only add 0.93%, as it's just 2 hydrogens added to something with a molar mass of 212. Usually people end up with less than the original weight, as the process incurs losses and purifies it further.

So it must be contamination. You may want to wash it with an ammonia solution (pH above 9.8 should be high enough) and see if that reduces the weight. If not, redissolve and re-precipitate.