• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Has anyone tried making an Ayahuasca tincture for microdosing?

TranscendentalOctopus

TranscendentalOctopus

blubba lubba lub
Specifically for syrian rue + ACRB. I've seen some people mention Aya tinctures in passing and was wondering if there are any guides on how to do this. Brews left in the fridge seem to become moldy after a while and it looks like a tincture would keep for much longer.

EDIT: Does the following look like an effective process to you guys?

1. Grind desired amount of syrian rue + acrb in a blender.
2. Put resulting powder in a small mason jar with 190 proof everclear or food grade glycerin.
3. Give the bottle a quick shake daily for 6 weeks.
4. Strain into desired container.

Do you guys think glycerin or alcohol would be more effective here?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I made capsules containing organic plant matter for microdosing. There are some things I would improve upon the capsules I made if you are curious about that. I honesty just have not gotten around to perfecting the ayahuasca microdose!!

One thing I like about the idea of a tincture as you bring it up, is that it can be administered sublingually. This allows for you to take it more places, as the vomit reflex of the stomach will not be activated. I don't know if you are intending for the tincture to be sublingual, but if so, then I believe that DMT-Fumarate would be reccomended.

I usually prefer to have a strong MAOI, oftentimes artifical (like Moclobemide), to 'cold start' an ayahuasca microdose. My reason for this is simpy that, a microdose of ayahuasca takes 'a macrodose of MAOI', for the delicate ammount of DMT to be effective and not immediately metabolized away. Unless you habitually like to microdose at least 1-2 times a day, you will have to re-up your MAO-inhibition back up to 75% or higher (more bodily saturation leads to higher MAOI inhibition past 85%). It is for this reason that, unlike an LSD or Shroom microdose, that I would reccomend people microdosing ayahuasca to first 'max out' their MAOI inhibition by some means, which will probably leave them between 75-85% inhibition, and then you can consume your DMT-Fumarate tincture (SL) + B.Caapi or Rue or whatever! DMT-Fumarate will typically require it's own treatment to be changed away from DMT into DMT-Fumarate however.

One thing I would like to caution is drinking (extremely) highly concentrated 'ayahuasca' tinctures as they are without diluting them in some water or other liquid, as the lack of viscious material in the stomach can actually make vomiting difficult or, more or less, impossible xD. The stomach absorbs liquid extremely rapidly, so without any means of vomiting up something which should be vomitied, it can get very distressing. In the ~15 minutes it takes the stomach to absorb most of the water of what you drink, the DMT will be mostly destroyed before any MAOI's can act. I haven't tried it, but it would seem to me that using the same brew to inhibit MAO and also distribute the DMT would have a high risk of overshooting your intended DMT levels, or way overusing the MAOI's present.

Another option not requiring the converstion of DMT into DMT-fumarate, nor getting the stomach involved, could be some sort of suppository formulation. This might, for example, simply be frozen tincture drops. It would have the added benefit of bypassing first pass metabolism.

Of note, allthough I have not personally worked with syrian rue nor acrb yet ('m a novice in general with psychs / herbalism), you may want to be cautious of consuming anything with a high tannin content. Your everclear or glycerin might pull tannins out, and that might very much color the experience. If you or anyone else can confirm the high tannin content of acrb then perhaps simply extracting the DMT and dissolving the crystals into the Syrina Rue tincture would be most effective.

Just my passionate ramblings on the topic! I am not sure what you have thought over yet, so I would be curious what you think of my repsonse! Please share any progress you make with this project! Hopefully someone with a good understanding of chemistry can come by and answer your question more specifically regarding the differences between such simliar solvents.

Best wishes! Much love
 
🌺🔥🫧 said:
In the ~15 minutes it takes the stomach to absorb most of the water of what you drink, the DMT will be mostly destroyed before any MAOI's can act. I haven't tried it, but it would seem to me that using the same brew to inhibit MAO and also distribute the DMT would have a high risk of overshooting your intended DMT levels, or way overusing the MAOI's present.
Click to expand...

I thought the same too initially and you're almost certainly right, however I've had good results with a 2:1 ratio of ACRB to Rue. The equivalent of 3g of ACRB + 1.5g of Rue taken in a single 5ml dose gave me mild hallucinations. 3ml of the same brew it came from gave me a slight DMT buzz with increased focus, plus sharper vision and hearing.

Taking the destruction of the DMT into account, I guess the optimal ratio would depend on if more Rue = faster inhibition. If this is the case than maybe a higher ratio of Rue to ACRB would make more sense. Alternatively if the time for inhibition doesn't change much with the amount of Rue, then a higher ratio of ACRB would ensure that some DMT remains after the MAO goes to town on it.

Dialing this in would require us to properly express the relationship between degree of max inhibition, rate of inhibition with respect to time, and total dmt consumed. This would probably involve some differential equations. :p Any insight into this?

EDIT: Hey look! My critical thinking ability is coming back! Thanks ayahuasca!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
TranscendentalOctopus said:
I thought the same too initially and you're almost certainly right, however I've had good results with a 2:1 ratio of ACRB to Rue. The equivalent of 3g of ACRB + 1.5g of Rue taken in a single 5ml dose gave me mild hallucinations. 3ml of the same brew it came from gave me a slight DMT buzz with increased focus, plus sharper vision and hearing.

Taking the destruction of the DMT into account, I guess the optimal ratio would depend on if more Rue = faster inhibition. If this is the case than maybe a higher ratio of Rue to ACRB would make more sense. Alternatively if the time for inhibition doesn't change much with the amount of Rue, then a higher ratio of ACRB would ensure that some DMT remains after the MAO goes to town on it.

Dialing this in would require us to properly express the relationship between degree of max inhibition, rate of inhibition with respect to time, and total dmt consumed. This would probably involve some differential equations. :p Any insight into this?

EDIT: Hey look! My critical thinking ability is coming back! Thanks ayahuasca!
Click to expand...
Hey, did you record the proportions of plant material and alcohol used in your tinctures?

There's a good deal of discussion on a similar topic in this thread:

Instant ayahuasca little lightening bolt TEK

So this is a really very simple TEK that SWIM came up with MANY years ago... and it gave the best experiences that SWIM has ever had with ayahuasca.. and SWIM has drank with jungle shamans and had many of types of brews... this though was the best... NOTE: this TEK is for making ayahuasca...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me

The latter half of the thread centres around a tannin removal technique, using vodka and pickling lime:

Instant ayahuasca little lightening bolt TEK

Interesting, so this does mean you would recommend adding an acid to these cold alcohol soaks? If so, which acid would be the best choice? EDIT: And am still unclear as to whether iso or ethanol would be better for soaking up orally active DMT, if any? Tnx again for all the help! This being in...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me
 
Transform said:
Hey, did you record the proportions of plant material and alcohol used in your tinctures?

There's a good deal of discussion on a similar topic in this thread:

Instant ayahuasca little lightening bolt TEK

So this is a really very simple TEK that SWIM came up with MANY years ago... and it gave the best experiences that SWIM has ever had with ayahuasca.. and SWIM has drank with jungle shamans and had many of types of brews... this though was the best... NOTE: this TEK is for making ayahuasca...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me

The latter half of the thread centres around a tannin removal technique, using vodka and pickling lime:

Instant ayahuasca little lightening bolt TEK

Interesting, so this does mean you would recommend adding an acid to these cold alcohol soaks? If so, which acid would be the best choice? EDIT: And am still unclear as to whether iso or ethanol would be better for soaking up orally active DMT, if any? Tnx again for all the help! This being in...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me
Click to expand...

Hey thanks for the reference material!

Actually the only reason I wanted to do a tincture was to prevent spoilage. Ended up decocting the next batch in a pressure cooker, reducing it down to 50ml and adding 50ml of 80 proof vodka. The resulting mixture is 20% alcohol and should keep indefinitely.

Anyway I've read here: Double Extraction Tincture, that to turn this into a tincture all you would have to do is soak the remaining plant matter in alcohol for a few weeks, strain it out and combine it with the decoction. ( And probably freeze the decoction in the mean time so it doesn't spoil.)

# The exact ratio and process I used for the most recent batch was as follows:
- Decocted 60g ACRB + 30g Rue in a 3 qt pressure cooker with a cup of water for 45 minutes - repeated 5 times.
- Strained out the plant matter and reduced to 50ml in a beaker over a hot plate.
- Funneled into a tincture bottle and added 80 proof vodka until the resulting mixtured weighed 100g on a scale.

# Issues:
- As the decoction reduced it would become thicker, splash onto the sides of the beaker and solidify. I would periodically have to scrape these solids off the sides back into the liquid. Maybe a magnetic stirrer would have prevented this?

# Result:
3g of the resulting mixture is enough to cause a slight dmt buzz for about 30 minutes. As long as the dose is small enough your awareness seems to remain heightened all day long and it's much easier to focus on mundane things (such as sweeping or washing dishes) for long periods without the need for additional stimulation (i.e. your phone :p ). You also seem to become more aware of people's micro expressions during conversation (I guess because you tend to focus on them more intently without having to force it) and things seem to roll off the tongue more easily.

Increasing the dosage beyond about 3g seems to make the experience more introspective, but leaves you feeling more washed out after the come down.

# Other thoughts:
I decided not to add ascorbic acid to this batch because it makes you feel too relaxed, to the point where you're content to just lounge around all day. Not really the effect I want!
 
This sounds wonderful! Very inspirational. Amazing herbalism✨
Are you taking the tincture sublingually? Or are you putting it in a cup of water? Are you keeping your MAOI saturation ‘up’ with this? Or does one administration of the tincture work in its own? Have you gotten any nausea or tried higher doses?
😄🙏
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the detail!


TranscendentalOctopus said:
# Issues:
- As the decoction reduced it would become thicker, splash onto the sides of the beaker and solidify. I would periodically have to scrape these solids off the sides back into the liquid. Maybe a magnetic stirrer would have prevented this?
Click to expand...
One way I've resolved this kind of issue when reducing cactus brew, albeit a somewhat time-consuming one, is by using at least three snugly-fitting transparent (i.e., glass) lids swapped in rotation, plus a basin of cold water.

When the liquid in the beaker (or, in my case, pan) starts simmering, place the first cold lid on top. It will start to fog up with condensation, which subsequently forms droplets. Just before the droplets get big enough to start dripping back into the beaker, get the next cold lid ready and swap it with the condensation-covered one.

Collect the condensation into a separate container with the help of a silicone spatula if you like [it's more or less distilled water, but also might contain traces of spray from the brew], then float the lid upside-down in the basin of cold water so it will be cold enough to condense water rapidly. (It doesn't matter if it sinks, but having a lid that's only wet on one side is more convenient.)

Meanwhile, have the next cold lid ready, drying it if necessary. Less drying is better, otherwise you end up with a load of soggy towels. Using dry lids also helps to prevent contaminants from the basin water from dripping into the brew.

The cycle continues as before, replacing the hot, wet lid with a cold, dry one, scooping off condensation, placing the hot lid into the cooling basin and drying off the previously cooled lid ready to swap again. Keep an eye on the liquid level in the pan/beaker!

This process pretty much entirely stops the brew from leaving a deposit on the sides of the evaporation vessel as it reduces. The succession of lids helps to keeps humidity levels high enough such that the brew can't dry out and stick to the walls, at the cost of near constant monitoring of the lids. It's also a very crude and inefficient example of distillation, but it solved the "wall residue" problem for me.

As an illustration of time scale, it took about four hours to evaporate 2L in a 24cm pot with this method, using a gentle simmer to prevent scorching of the brew.
 
🌺🔥🫧 said:
Are you taking the tincture sublingually? Or are you putting it in a cup of water? Are you keeping your MAOI saturation ‘up’ with this? Or does one administration of the tincture work in its own? Have you gotten any nausea or tried higher doses?
Click to expand...
Well this stuff tastes about as bad as you'd expect so sublingual is out of the question for me personally. I just take one dose in the morning before breakfast mixed in with orange juice to mask the aftertaste. I personally don't think it's a good idea to keep yourself inhibited continuously since MAO is responsible for breaking down stress hormones but maybe there's some quirk to harmalas that makes this a non issue. 🤷‍♂️

No nausea at all thankfully! Haven't gotten around to trying a high dose yet, but 5g seems to be enough to make the walls crawl without purging.

Transform said:
The succession of lids helps to keeps humidity levels high enough such that the brew can't dry out and stick to the walls, at the cost of near constant monitoring of the lids.
Click to expand...
Oooohhh that makes sense, it does seem really involved though. Maybe I'll try this on the next batch. :)
 
The ratio it activates MAO-A or MAO-B, can make a difference, since one is in the gut and metabolizes adrenaline/tyramine/etc (allthough dopamine also stimulates the HPA-Axis!).

Moclobemide for instance does not really inhibit MAO-A that much as far as I know, which enables the body to process adrenaline…

I would think of trying a (frozen?) suppository formulation to avoid taste issues, and reduce the risk of nausea in public. It’s usually the nausea that gets me worried in public(!) xD

Thanks for the updates!! Really inspiring.

(It would be wild to make a salvinorin x ayahuasca mao-a tincture! xD)
 
Last edited:
🌺🔥🫧 said:
The ratio it activates MAO-A or MAO-B, can make a difference, since one is in the gut and metabolizes adrenaline/tyramine/etc (allthough dopamine also stimulates the HPA-Axis!).

Moclobemide for instance does not really inhibit MAO-A that much as far as I know, which enables the body to process adrenaline…

I would think of trying a (frozen?) suppository formulation to avoid taste issues, and reduce the risk of nausea in public. It’s usually the nausea that gets me worried in public(!) xD

Thanks for the updates!! Really inspiring.

(It would be wild to make a salvinorin x ayahuasca mao-a tincture! xD)
Click to expand...
It's the other way round, harmine and moclobemide are both RIMAs, reversible inhibitors of monoamine oxidase A. Harmalas only show a slight inhibition of MAO-B at exceedingly high doses. MAO-B is the one that oxidises noradrenaline and dopamine.
 
Hey just to avoid giving anyone the wrong idea: 3g of the most recent batch will make you slightly drowsy for about 30 minutes, then slightly disoriented for an additional 30 minutes or so as the DMT takes effect and peaks. The mentioned benefits come AFTER coming down from the peak and seem to last all day.

I've been taking a single small dose daily for about a month now and the mentioned benefits seem to stack over time and persist on off days. I'm guessing this is probably due to neurogenesis, which is the whole goal of this experiment. To anyone planning on trying this: a little bit seems to go a long way, no need to overdo it!
 
Figured I'd leave a little update here.

After about 6 weeks I started feeling a little burnt out and irritable. Funnily enough I also got this increasingly nagging feeling in my gut that it was time to stop. Took a week off and went back to normal. Started dosing again for a few days, but my intuition was practically screaming at me that there was no benefit in continuing, so I discarded the rest of the batch and resumed my meditation practice instead. :p

Cognitive benefits seem to have persisted. I'm thinking that the optimal way to approach this dosing regime would be to cycle on for 4 to 6 weeks at a time the same way that bodybuilders cycle steroids.

To take the analogy further, if psychedelics are like steroids, then meditation (done properly) would probably be like weightlifting. The daily dosing of psychedelics seems to have souped up my concentration to such a degree that it catapulted my meditation practice (samatha) forward. I will probably continue to build my concentration in a more traditional manner until I stagnate, then supplement with a 4-6 week "cycle" of daily rue/acacia (haoma?) again to break through the plateau.

P.S: Wow, got through that entire post without a single typo. That stuff really sharpens your mind!
 
For a relatively short and gentle microdosing experience, vaporhuasca seems to work well. I have just tried this morning 25mg sublingual harmala freebase + a couple of short puffs from my sub-ohm mod. As the effects appear quickly, it's easy to regulate to what exact point you want to get. The effects I went for are more in the minidose range, though (clearly noticeable but without any patterns or colors yet, other than some blue blobs).
 
Sublingual rue seeds are a super easy way of having sustained-release harmalas with better absorption than via the oral route. As a result, it only takes a pinch for there to be a mild but noticeable effect.

At present I'm unable to comment on how this might effect any kind of DMT dosing; it made for a nice background to a shroom dose, however.
 
blig-blug said:
Faster onset, less to no stomach side effects. And the freebase has almost no taste.
Click to expand...
Whelp, I'm back to drink from the well again 😁.

Considering trying this. Do sublingual doses tend to eliminate faster as well?

With oral, if you deliberately do a poor job of straining it, the remaining plant matter seems to slow release throughout the day as it travels through your intestines. Also, right before it passes out of you, you'll get a little mini peak. Could be a good or bad thing depending on what you're after.

Apologies if anyone was eating anything while reading this hehe.
 
By the way, after reducing the most recent batch and filtering out the liquid I was left with a small glob of vodka infused SR/ACRB paste. What do you guys think I should do with it? Cut it up and swallow the pieces? Put it in a pipe and smoke it? Dilute it with more vodka and microdose it? Options, options...

EDIT: ooOOooR maybe I could toss it into my dehydrator, grind it to a powder and put it in capsules? Anyone ever try that? Kind of wondering if it would end up being too rubbery to powderize.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top Bottom