Heat and mescaline

[69ron]

Dorge, I don't normally jump out and say I don't believe someone. But this is just beyond belief and goes against everything others are saying, and goes against SWIM's own experience with mescaline acetate, mescaline HCl, freebase mescaline, and the natural salt in the cactus. They are all sensitive to heat. SWIM did enough tests to know this is true.

You know, you're not even testing pure mescaline, and then you're saying all this stuff about it. You're testing a mix of alkaloids in some resin. Who knows what else is going on with all those alkaloids in there! Any number of alkaloids could be changing, decomposing, etc.

Dorge, go and test some PURE MESCALINE, and then you'll see you are flat out wrong. It is quite heat sensitive.

 

[Espiridion]

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Just from reading a text off of Erowid about a sort of modern day shaman who was taught to use San Pedro, He says he was taught to boil 4-8 hours but that he now does a twenty hour boil. He claims his brew is more potent because of it and gives less nausea.

I know we have discussed the differences between wet and dry heat, mescaline versus resin and full alk profiles.

Just thought I'd chime in. I personally have no working experience of the subject.

Just seems that the water loving mescaline migrates slower due to stubborn cell walls, perhaps. I don't know how many Curanderos have freezers to rupture the cell walls so for them the long boil may be necessary.




Interesting read either way. Its good to have these little disagreements. More information comes out of them!!:d



Peace all,


Espiridion
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[Dorge]

Thanks Espiridion I recall that as well... I studied with a san pedro curandero for 6 years thats why I dont think sanpedro extract is as heat sensitive as people say it is...

Dorge, I don't normally jump out and say I don't believe someone. But this is just beyond belief and goes against everything others are saying, and goes against SWIM's own experience with mescaline acetate, mescaline HCl, freebase mescaline, and the natural salt in the cactus. They are all sensitive to heat. SWIM did enough tests to know this is true.

You know, you're not even testing pure mescaline, and then you're saying all this stuff about it. You're testing a mix of alkaloids in some resin. Who knows what else is going on with all those alkaloids in there! Any number of alkaloids could be changing, decomposing, etc.

Dorge, go and test some PURE MESCALINE, and then you'll see you are flat out wrong. It is quite heat sensitive.

Ron, there is no need to talk down to me or insult my intelligence.

your being kinda smarmy and SWIM respects your opinion as well as your knowledge and skill, but dont talk to SWIM like that please. Its quite rude...
Swims talking about sanpedro resin not a pure alkaloid isolation, It is not psychosomatic either, (a very rude comment by the way)...
The way Swim makes resin it does not seem to be as heat sensitive. You have every right to replicate my methods if you like and see for your self. The reason why SWIM wanted to bring this up is because swim has not noticed any deviation in potency in making teas or resins because of heat. Now in dealing with pure isolated extractions of alkaloids this seems to be true, lots of people report that it is and so SWIM takes it that it is... It just seems that a lot of people seem to think that heat in more crude less refined extracts is going to degrade the alkaliods which SWIM has not seen any evidence of that.
Swim is also not saying that mescaline gets stronger from heat.. Swim is saying that his most recent resin extract used a lot of heat repeatedly and the resin was stronger then if he had just taken the ground up cacti alone. This could be because its extracted from the cactus and the body does not have to break it down and because its acetate and more easily absorbed by the body. Not because its now magically stronger because of heat. My point was that the heat did not reduce its strength and its stronger then if swim would have just drank a water slurry of the cacti skin powder.

 

[69ron]

You’re spreading mis-information about mescaline. Someone needs to speak up about it.

This thread is about mescaline being heat sensitive. It IS heat sensitive. All of SWIM's tests and tests from others testing pure mescaline show that it is.

You haven't even tested mescaline. You've tested a mix of alkaloids from a cactus. SWIM has tested purified mescaline, and knows you are wrong.

Try this with pure mescaline. Until then, you’re talking about a collection of cactus alkaloids, not even pure mescaline.

Mescaline doesn’t magically get more potent from heat. It gets less potent. This is a fact. If you’re going to say these facts are not right, you’d better back it up with some data that’s real. Test pure mescaline like the others are who say you’re wrong. Then talk about it.

 

[narmz]

Why doesn't someone just do a typical resin extraction using heat, then wash the resin with cold MEK? If there is any mescaline left, wouldn't that show that mescaline in whatever salt form it is in within the cacti is to some degree heat resistant?

 

[Dorge]

Your not listening to me and your being highly abrasive and a tad rude ron.
I am not spreading misinformation at all.
I started the thread I know what its about.
yes its heat sensitive most things are get something hot enough and it will vaporize lol. Who would deny that? I am not for one...
yes SWIM has tested a mix of alkaloids from a cactus, one of those alkaloids is mescaline, I dont see how them being mixed makes a difference.
I believe that pure mescaline degrades under high temps when in a freebase or acetate all by its lonesome. But there have been lots of people carrying this assumption into making resins. That anything over 150 degrees will destroy their product. thats not been SWIMS experience at all... and swims never heard that any where but here,and swim thinks its because people are carrying that assumption from isolated alks to resins. the resins seem much more stable under heat, and thats been swims entire point the whole time and the only reason why swim started this post in the first place.

"Mescaline doesn’t magically get more potent from heat. It gets less potent. This is a fact. If you’re going to say these facts are not right, you’d better back it up with some data that’s real. Test pure mescaline like the others are who say you’re wrong. Then talk about it."

Your being kinda a jerk, Swim already explained that thats not what swim was saying and swim feels no need to repeat himself. people tend to use communication style like this when they do not want to listen to another person. If you dont wish to listen they why bother communicating?

Swim thinks your right about high heat and alks in isolated extracts, but swim does not think that the same rules apply in making resins. thats all swim is saying. swim has proof right in front of him of that.

 

[Dorge]

Why doesn't someone just do a typical resin extraction using heat, then wash the resin with cold MEK? If there is any mescaline left, wouldn't that show that mescaline in whatever salt form it is in within the cacti is to some degree heat resistant?

Swim tried that with his resin, nothing changed. but swims resin is not sticky its hard and crystalline.

 

[narmz]

I'd imagine you'd have to add vinegar instead of lemon juice, so that you get mescaline acetate instead of citrate. Probably would want to do that after the heating process I'd think.

 

[Dorge]

I'd imagine you'd have to add vinegar instead of lemon juice, so that you get mescaline acetate instead of citrate. Probably would want to do that after the heating process I'd think.

yes SWIm never used citric swim boils in a limestone solution at a simmer (still boiling temp though) strains then adds vinegar during the evap stage in the oven. there are no sticky resins and it does not disolve in MEK.

 

[ThirdEyeVision]

I have read several peoples test with vaporized mescaline with positive reports. Wouldn't that mean that it can be somewhat heat stable? I believe it was active with both full spectrum resin and mescaline HCL.

 

[antichode]

On the topic of heat, SWIM has noticed no loss in potency to Mescaline HCL when using 60-70 degrees C in his dehydrator. However, prolonged moderate heat making resin has given differing results. SWIM has noticed that longer applications of heat seem to leave a far weaker product. A low heat for a minimum of time and then freezing as in House's tek is the best method. Long simmers DEFINITELY effect potency in a negative way

 

[kjb1891]

Antichode, what would SWIY consider to be low or moderate heat using the resin tek? Many slow cookers only have warm, low, and high settings. So, what would SWIY consider to be too high a temperature and what would SWIY consider too long a period of time to simmer?

 

[Buster]

so, swim has done this extraction a fair few times now,and every time accept this time have
oven dried it. half a gas mark with the door cracked open a lil, not to hot, the evaporating vessel never gets to
hot to handle throughout. usually takes around 14 houre to dry.
with decent results:d (fell in love with mescaline8) )

so this time for some reason swim decided to air dry it with no heat just in a cubard with good air flow
at around 17/19deg it took 5 days.

lets just say swims mescaline will never see the inside of the oven again. this end product at the same
dose just has so much MORE energy and viberance to it where as with the oven dried stuff i see now lacked that part of the feeling. it was just kind of more mellow, with this swim feels ALOT more stimulated at mg for mg dose,even more visually stimulated. tbh he was totally blown away by the difference between oven dried and air dried unpurified acetate at the same dose level.

from the roof tops= USE NO HEAT WITH RONS LIMONENE CACTUS EXTRACTION. (hahaha this out of character long post(for swim) is actually the results of the air dried acatate, he just had to add his two bob on the matter)

for swim anyway, he wont be using heat again, ever because he feels the difference8)

Happy Vibes

peace

 

[69ron]

Every extraction tech SWIM used where heat was involved caused a noticeable reduction in the mescaline content. The more heat, and the longer it was exposed to that heat, the less mescaline there was in the final end product.

I think enough people here have had similar results that there's not much reason to debate it.

I want to spend further energy talking about what exact temperatures are detrimental to the various salt forms of mescaline. And what form is the most heat stable? And what form is the least heat stable?

If dealing with mescaline acetate or mescaline HCl, what temperature ranges should people avoid?

We have quite a few people saying that the oven drying method reduced potency. Most ovens have a minimum temperature of about 150-200 F. This seems to be enough to cause reduced potency when evaporating an extract containing mescaline acetate.

If we can get a consensus on which temperatures to avoid, that would be very helpful.

SWIM has found 115 F seems to be ok, unless the mescaline acetate is evaporated several times over and over at that temperature, in which it eventually loses its crystal formation and loses potency. But the initial few evaporations at that temperature seems to be OK.

I think oxidation is the problem here. I think mescaline N-oxide is forming when exposed to too much heat and air for too long.

 

[antichode]

Antichode, what would SWIY consider to be low or moderate heat using the resin tek? Many slow cookers only have warm, low, and high settings. So, what would SWIY consider to be too high a temperature and what would SWIY consider too long a period of time to simmer?

SWIMS slow cooker has a low and high setting, the high setting is almost a boil, the low setting is just below simmer and this is what he uses.

SWIM ran into problems when he used the low setting for 24 or more hours. 12 Hours seemed fine, but 2-3 works just as well if you freeze the chunks as in the updated resin tek. Then there is no need to squeeze out the chunks, just keep cooking and freezing till it aint bitter no more

 

[curious1]

Until recently my prefered method of ingesting mescaline is to cut a live piece of trichocereus remove the green part of the skin pop it into a blender with a tiny bit of water, then sieve and gulp down and grimace.

I found a 10cm piece is generally enough for me to decidedly feel the effects of.

As I am exploring 69rons foodsafe tek I have been drying my cactus skin at 30C [86F] (in a food dehydrator) as well as the crude mescaline acetate at the same temperature.

I have eaten the approximate acetate equvalent of 20cm worth of cactus with only slight effects. that is very dissapointing.

Either I am losing medicine in the drying or the extraction

 

[dg]

just baked 250mg mescaline in the oven for 1 hr at 305*f, white crystal going in, and coming out,
so i kicked it up to 350 for another 1/2hr, still white crystaline powder
looked and tasted the same, think when i try it next weekend it'll be ruined?? :wacko:
myth: busted

 

[benzyme]

have you done a melting point test? mesc salts start to melt around 362 F.
350 won't do anything except darken them. if the crystals came out white, it's probably not even mesc.

 

[dg]

have you done a melting point test? mesc salts start to melt around 362 F.
350 won't do anything except darken them. if the crystals came out white, it's probably not even mesc.

m.sulphate salts didn't darken at 300-350 in my gas oven for 1-1.5hrs
as for a melting point test,i dont have any way to accurately measure, but

yah, i'm sure you are right, really-- its probly just table salt or somethin....

anyways, did you read the whole thread, saying it "degrades" at such low temps?

what you think of that?

 

[benzyme]

no, not likely. not in salt form.

though i've heard of many stories where people neglected the boil down, and got no activity