help base with sodium carbonate

[panoramix]

can swim base with sodium carbonate intead of sodium hydroxide in a extract becouse its alot safer than lye

greeder pano

 

[amor_fati]

One possibility is drytek, but limtek has a much better track record.

 

[panoramix]

One possibility is drytek, but limtek has a much better track record.

i mean instead of lye us sodium carbonate not a wash or fermuric dmt to freebase conversion

greeder pano

 

[1664]

I don't know but Jesus your avatar scares me! :shock:

 

[panoramix]

LOL i like your avatar

 

[amor_fati]

One possibility is drytek, but limtek has a much better track record.

i mean instead of lye us sodium carbonate not a wash or fermuric dmt to freebase conversion

greeder pano

I know, perhaps you should read the content of the links. These are the only extractions in which the weaker household bases are known or are likely to work. Neither should be used in solution the way that lye is used.

 

[1664]

aww, you changed it! That's a shame, it's good to get scared every now and then

 

[panoramix]

aww, you changed it! That's a shame, it's good to get scared every now and then

 

[panoramix]

Neither should be used in solution the way that lye is used.

can u tel me wy whats the chamastry behint it

greeder pano

 

[amor_fati]

Neither should be used in solution the way that lye is used.

can u tel me wy whats the chamastry behint it

greeder pano

This is primarily based on research and experience for SWIM. Lime is not very water soluble but is a strong base; diluting it to any degree makes it quite weak, but it needs some amount of water to work its magic. Sodium carbonate is a weak base and isn't very good at breaking down plant matter, and although it is strong enough to basify DMT, SWIM theorizes that the acids in the plant material tend to buffer sodium carbonate in solution. In any case, the community's research has largely demonstrated what SWIM claims.

 

[State of the Mind]

Yeah the main reason for using the acid boils in A/B or a strong base in STB is so that the cellulose plant matter is broken down to release DMT contained within the plant matter.

You will be able to use sodium carbonate in STB with powdered MHRB, however your yield will be significantly reduced to some DMT still being present in the MHRB plant matter.

Hope this helped. :d

 

[amor_fati]

You will be able to use sodium carbonate in STB with powdered MHRB, however your yield will be significantly reduced to some DMT still being present in the MHRB plant matter.

In solution, yes, most likely it will be reduced, but it's doubtful as to whether break-down (or lack-thereof) of plant matter is the prime culprit in the case of powdered bark. Adding to what SWIM has already said: He would guess that in solution, the ability of the plant's natural acids to disperse along with dilution of the weak base, would cause a buffering effect. This should be testable with a pH meter, and depending partly on the type of solvent used, the pH can greatly effect the ability of that solvent to extract. Not to mention other contents of the plant possibly disrupting extraction.

In theory--and in some cases, in practice--drytek should work, but it bears a number implications that greatly limit its potential and ease of implementation. It's unlikely that the base itself is the limitation, as SWIM could imagine lime would be just as difficult in a drytek, but the mechanics of the process. Limtek is without most of the pertinent difficulties of drytek, and has proven effective in numerous cases throughout the community.

 

[panoramix]

thenkx for the enlightment pips i get it

greeder pano

 

[killuminati420]

Wouldnt i be able to simmer about 100grams mimosa in an acid about all day and night, wake up, strain the liquids which i will boil down to about 700ml in a qt. sized jar,then add a de-fat'ner, and after i get all the fats out, THEN would i be able to use sodium carbonate as the base instead of lye??? With a ph-tester of course

 

[mumbles]

Yeap sodium carbonate works fine as the base in an a/b extraction. Just make sure to do boils of the bark with fresh acidified water 3 times then combine and reduce down, then base.

 

[amor_fati]

Yeap sodium carbonate works fine as the base in an a/b extraction.

Is that the general consensus among A/B'ers? SWIM's never noticed it to catch on with them for the most part, but perhaps he's mistaken. He's also heard that it doesn't work with naphtha as the extraction solvent. SWIM would like to clarify this for the purposes of the wiki.

 

[mumbles]

69ron has a good post on this where he explains to swim a ph of 10.x is enough to freebase almost all of the spice. So swim tested it out and then after extraction dumped a shitload of lye in there and extracted again and only 200mg extra came out (from 500g bark) which is normal for even non ultra basified extractions (diminishing returns and all that). So there seems to be a lot of misinformation around about sodium carbonate. Swim used shellite (naptha) and there were no dramas in fact he uses it in washes.

edit: found it Basification of DMT acetate with lime/sodium carbonate - FAQ - All your basic questions and answers - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

To freebase 50% of all the DMT present in a plant you need only a pH of 8.68. pH 10 can freebase over 90% of all the DMT. This is a based on DMT’s pKa. Sodium carbonate can bring a solution to 11.4. At pH 11.4 more than 99% of all the DMT is freebased. When using an A/B extraction you only need 50% freebased for good results. For an STB you need 99% for good results.

SWIM only uses sodium carbonate for DMT extractions when doing an A/B. Also he uses calcium hydroxide for STB techs, but only ones designed for calcium hydroxide. SWIM never uses sodium hydroxide for anything.

And YES, SWIM gets great yields. It all depends on the tech used. If you use a tech that NEEDS sodium hydroxide, then you need to use sodium hydroxide. But this idea that sodium carbonate is not a strong enough base to freebase DMT is absolutely not correct. It’s an internet rumor some idiot started many years ago who knows nothing about chemistry. Because of the low pKa of DMT, it can be freebased with ammonia, sodium carbonate, calcium hydroxide, sodium hydroxide, and quite a few other bases. Sodium Bicarbonate is not good to use though because it can only freebase about 20% of the DMT at once. But it can be made to work in an A/B, but will be very inefficient requiring a lot of pulls.

So the wiki needs to be updated and this myth needs to die. That said naptha is still a shit solvent for DMT it needs to be pretty hot for this to work with sodium carbonate.

 

[amor_fati]

So the wiki needs to be updated and this myth needs to die. That said naptha is still a shit solvent for DMT it needs to be pretty hot for this to work with sodium carbonate.

Thanks, SWIM's been looking into this lately and is rather surprised that the truth of this seems to have evaded him; though admittedly not so surprised considering his neglect toward A/B methods. Seems almost silly that most still swear by use of stronger more toxic reagents. SWIM's already getting rid of all of his leftover toxics, which, for the most part, he hasn't used for some time anyway. Naphtha is terrible for so many reasons, as well. SWIM prefers to use a stronger solvent for extraction, then to salt out fumarates, and if he gets an inkling to grow crystals, he'll use a bit of heptane for the conversion.

What's needed is for more A/B'ers to try out the nontoxic method of extraction and report on the results. It's not enough that the method is plausible and occasionally vouched for, it needs some amount of enthusiasm and active research in order to replace the old ways. SWIM thinks that it's incredibly important for entheogenic extractors to get away from unsavory chemicals altogether, but a precedent must be set in order to veer the new blood in the right direction.

 

[killuminati420]

So with an A/B extraction, using sodium carbonate and d-limo(for no emulsions) would work perfecly hah?? Ive been wondering how i could do an organic DMT extraction for awhile now and this sounds close and safe enough! Thank you, people of DMT Nexus

 

[Dimitrius]

69ron has a good post on this where he explains to swim a ph of 10.x is enough to freebase almost all of the spice. So swim tested it out and then after extraction dumped a shitload of lye in there and extracted again and only 200mg extra came out (from 500g bark) which is normal for even non ultra basified extractions (diminishing returns and all that). So there seems to be a lot of misinformation around about sodium carbonate. Swim used shellite (naptha) and there were no dramas in fact he uses it in washes.

would SWIY mind sharing:

- how much mhrb?
- how much acidic solution (before and after reduction)?
- cooking or long soak?
- was plant matter filtered out?
- amount of sodium carbonate added to acidic solution?

SWIM will be starting an A/B tomorrow to see how sodium carbonate fairs for him, and the answers to these questions would help SWIM suss out a few details.

you know, if SWIY doesn't mind...