How to consume THH in salt form HCL?

[the_Architect]

I had previously tried the THH in freebase form.
I´ve recently got some more THH, but noticed this one is in salt form HCL.

How are you supposed to take it in HCL?

My previous experience with THH freebase was:
I would mix it with a small amount of fresh orange juice. Put it in my mouth for 5 minutes, kind of sublingual, then swallow it.
(taste was too bad for me to do it sublingual directly, had to use 30ml orange juice).

Thanks

 

[Varallo]

I would mix it with a small amount of fresh orange juice

So you where taking the citrate then, this would upon entering the stomach be dissociated and then absorbed by your body. Now when consuming the hcl salt form it would be the same.

The only difference would be the dose, al salt forms have different weights relative to the amount of freebase. To keep it simple I calculated this for you

To get a dose of a 100 mg of THH freebase:
You would need 117 mg of THH HCl.
And would need 190 mg of THH citrate.
And 154 mg of THH fumarate

As you can see you typically need more of organic salt forms than the inorganic ones.

 

[Transform]

So you where taking the citrate then, this would upon entering the stomach be dissociated and then absorbed by your body. Now when consuming the hcl salt form it would be the same.

The only difference would be the dose, al salt forms have different weights relative to the amount of freebase. To keep it simple I calculated this for you

To get a dose of a 100 mg of THH freebase:
You would need 117 mg of THH HCl.
And would need 190 mg of THH citrate.
And 154 mg of THH fumarate

As you can see you typically need more of organic salt forms than the inorganic ones.

We have a dose calculator knocking around here somewhere for this kind of stuff. I'll have to see if I can dig it up.

Calculating for polybasic acids like fumaric or citric has to take into account the stoichiometry (acid/base ratio), hence it can get a bit tricky. It may be best to assume a higher ratio of acid to base at first, which would help in avoiding dosing too high.

 

[Sabnock1990]

You can encapsulate freebased or hcl extract, it works fine either way ime. Capsules ftw.

 

[Varallo]

Calculating for polybasic acids like fumaric or citric has to take into account the stoichiometry (acid/base ratio), hence it can get a bit tricky. It may be best to assume a higher ratio of acid to base at first, which would help in avoiding dosing too high.

Ah yes, thanks I learned something, that would mean that in the case of citrate and fumarate there’s a chance that one fumaric acid, having two acidic protons or citric acid having three acidic protons can bind multiple THH molecules. So that in this case the dose would end up going down ? because of the weight of freebase being bound to the acid, or am I making a mistake here? I’m not a chemist so I’m not sure.

I found it,

Salts<->freebase calculator

Hi all, Ever had to calculate how much freebase a given alkaloid salt equals to? Or how much of a salt a freebase should make? Then look no further! Please find attached a simple excel calculator that easily converts the between salts and freebases for the celebrity alkaloids and their salts...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Transform]

Ah yes, thanks I learned something, that would mean that in the case of citrate and fumarate there’s a chance that one fumaric acid, having two acidic protons or citric acid having three acidic protons can bind multiple THH molecules. So that in this case the dose would end up going down ? because of the weight of freebase being bound to the acid, or am I making a mistake here? I’m not a chemist so I’m not sure.

Yes, the proportion of alkaloidal base to acid would go up, reducing the required dose a bit. That said, I'd be quite surprised if THH would combine with citric acid at anything more than a 2:1 ratio, it's not such a strong base. If we look at how even the moderately strong base, mescaline, combines quite happily with citric acid in a 1:1 ratio during the CIELO preparation (at least when conditions are right) we can see that stoichiometry of the product can be driven through using an excess of one or other of the reagents, along with, in this specific case, the negligible solubility of the resulting monomescaline dihydrogencitrate ~sesquihydrate in ethyl acetate.

What I'm really saying, with respect to the formation of a THH citrate, is that its stoichiometry would depend to some extent on its method of preparation as well as the respective pKₐ's (in the case of citric acid) and the pKb of the THH. [And why the heck won't this keyboard do a subscript 'b'?!]

 

[Varallo]

Thanks I learned something new, I know how to calculate the amounts when thinking about 1:1 ratios but didn't know if the number H+ would be needed to taken into consideration.

So for the op HCL is not polybasic, so I think my calculation on THH HCL is correct.

 

[Transform]

Thanks I learned something new, I know how to calculate the amounts when thinking about 1:1 ratios but didn't know if the number H+ would be needed to taken into consideration.

So for the op HCL is not polybasic, so I think my calculation on THH HCL is correct.

The salt calculator makes this easier - and now that I've remembered it was produced by @orchidist it should be a bit easier to find.

 

[Transform]

Here we are:

Salts<->freebase calculator

Hi all, Ever had to calculate how much freebase a given alkaloid salt equals to? Or how much of a salt a freebase should make? Then look no further! Please find attached a simple excel calculator that easily converts the between salts and freebases for the celebrity alkaloids and their salts...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Transform]

Scrolling up, there's @Infundibulum's calculator too, as revised and expanded (a little) by @downwardsfromzero: Salts<->freebase calculator

 

[the_Architect]

Thanks for reply.
I was mixing freebase with orange juice... but only for the flavour, (not for the reaction with citric acid...)
Not sure what was the best way to take freebase.

Anyway, what I have now is THH HCl. I guess I need about 17% more dose in weight than for freebase, it´s not a such big difference.

I will be taking the THH in HCL with 30ml of orange juice too.

 

[Transform]

Sublingual is more efficiently absorbed*, so you get more initial bang for your buck, although metabolic clearance is quicker on account of the smaller amount of material (pharmacodynamics, yay!)
[*Disclaimer - my experience largely has been limited to mixed harmine/harmaline or isolated fractions thereof.]

Freebase is suited to sublingual use, I think, because it is both less soluble in, and therefore less likely to get washed away by, saliva and more lipophilic than the salt form, so it's more able to cross the mucous membrane barrier into the bloodstream. And, of course, the poor aqueous solubility allows the THH to hang around a little longer for more absorption to take place.

Anecdotally, this poor solubility should help minimise the bitter taste (but maybe your saliva is less alkaline than average?) Beyond that, I'd advise becoming better accustomed to bitter tastes in general, through the regular consumption of bitter herbs and salads like chicory and radiccio, and drinking, e.g., wormwood, centaury and/or cerassie teas. [Always check to see that any given herb is suited to your particular situaion!]

I would also strongly advise eliminating consumption of sweet goods other than a bit of fruit, and keeping salt intake to the minimum necessary for good health. This ought to help retrain your taste buds, or, possibly, your responses to taste sensations.

I did rediscover a small pile of THH here the other week so I hope to make it part of my autumnal retinue of neurological refreshment.

 

[doubledog]

Ime sublingual is a perfect way for harmaloids, both in freebase or salt form. You need much less of material, it works fast and is reliable.
Hcl salt is probably not very tasty, so I would personally convert it into freebase.

 

[the_Architect]

THH freebase tasted like... liking a battery, those that give you and electric shock...
and dang, I have tried all sorts of nasty tasting materials... like a black tobacco paste (ambil), aya, etc... perhaps a slice of ginger might help me next time.

 

[Transform]

THH freebase tasted like... liking a battery, those that give you and electric shock...
and dang, I have tried all sorts of nasty tasting materials... like a black tobacco paste (ambil), aya, etc... perhaps a slice of ginger might help me next time.

That sounds pretty cool, I'm definitely gonna have to try some