How to get the proper pH without a meter or pH papers

[ChemicalEnthusiast]

This post is meant to help people get a solution to the proper pH without using a pH meter or pH papers.

The solutions that I listed are used in most A/B extraction teks. I have attached my work on how I got these numbers and amounts.

The work I showed is for the following solutions:

pH 13 NaOH solution
pH 3, 3.5, and 4 acetic acid solutions starting from 5% acetic acid solution
pH 9, and 10 sodium carbonate solutions

Here are the conclusions that I came to:

Add 4 g NaOH per 1 L TOTAL solution to obtain a pH 13 NaOH solution

Add 69.5 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 3 acetic acid solution
Add 7.2 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 3.5 acetic acid solution
Add 0.8 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 4 acetic acid solution

Add 1.06 mg of sodium carbonate per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 9 sodium carbonate solution
Add 15.90 mg of sodium carbonate per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 10 sodium carbonate solution

(I emphasize TOTAL solution because if you add 69.5 ml of acetic acid to 1 L of water you now have 1.0695 total solution and the ph will NOT be 3.)

Some things to note about these calculations:

When doing an acid base extraction, the first step is to do the acid extraction at ~pH 4. This means that you will need to add MORE than 4 g to obtain a solution at pH 13. A similar calculation can be done to determine exactly how much is needed but this informations is trivial. The solubility of NaOH in water is so high and adding too much does not have a negative effect so it is much safer to add much more than 4 g, as stated in most teks.

The second thing to note is that most teks say to do the acid extraction at pH 4. Without a pH meter or pH papers obtaining this exact pH is difficult or impossible for two reasons: store bought vinegar (5% acetic acid) is actually in-between 4% and 6%, and many of us do not have the ability to measure less than a milliliter. That is why I included the second two calculations at pH 3.5 and pH 3. Instead of aiming at exactly pH 4 I would recommend aiming for a solution in-between pH 3.5 and pH 4, recognizing that it is not necessary to be at exactly pH 4. Add anywhere between 2 and 5 ml to guarantee that you are within pH 3.5 and pH 4 and not below pH 3.5. This same logic applies to the sodium carbonate solutions.

One thing that is great about knowing how to do these calculations is that you can do them for ANY desired solution with ANY different type of acid or base.

Any other chemists out there please check my work to make 100% sure I did them correctly.

 

[Earthwalker]

Man.. I really thought people would appreciate this on this forum.

I think IMO you're mistaken , a lot of members would scroll tru this and think this is cool and I wish i seen or had this available when we were all newbies and ie hadn't thought about a ph meter or liptus papers yet ,, although there was nothing a lot of us could add doesn't mean it's not appreciated :thumb_up:

Btw ph meters on eBay $7.99

 

[Infundibulum]

This post is meant to help people get a solution to the proper pH without using a pH meter or pH papers.

The solutions that I listed are used in most A/B extraction teks. I have attached my work on how I got these numbers and amounts.

The work I showed is for the following solutions:

pH 13 NaOH solution
pH 3, 3.5, and 4 acetic acid solutions starting from 5% acetic acid solution
pH 9, and 10 sodium carbonate solutions

Here are the conclusions that I came to:

Add 4 g NaOH per 1 L TOTAL solution to obtain a pH 13 NaOH solution

Add 69.5 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 3 acetic acid solution
Add 7.2 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 3.5 acetic acid solution
Add 0.8 ml of 5% acetic acid per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 4 acetic acid solution

Add 1.06 mg of sodium carbonate per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 9 sodium carbonate solution
Add 15.90 mg of sodium carbonate per 1 L TOTAL solution for pH 10 sodium carbonate solution

(I emphasize TOTAL solution because if you add 69.5 ml of acetic acid to 1 L of water you now have 1.0695 total solution and the ph will NOT be 3.)

Some things to note about these calculations:

When doing an acid base extraction, the first step is to do the acid extraction at ~pH 4. This means that you will need to add MORE than 4 g to obtain a solution at pH 13. A similar calculation can be done to determine exactly how much is needed but this informations is trivial. The solubility of NaOH in water is so high and adding too much does not have a negative effect so it is much safer to add much more than 4 g, as stated in most teks.

The second thing to note is that most teks say to do the acid extraction at pH 4. Without a pH meter or pH papers obtaining this exact pH is difficult or impossible for two reasons: store bought vinegar (5% acetic acid) is actually in-between 4% and 6%, and many of us do not have the ability to measure less than a milliliter. That is why I included the second two calculations at pH 3.5 and pH 3. Instead of aiming at exactly pH 4 I would recommend aiming for a solution in-between pH 3.5 and pH 4, recognizing that it is not necessary to be at exactly pH 4. Add anywhere between 2 and 5 ml to guarantee that you are within pH 3.5 and pH 4 and not below pH 3.5. This same logic applies to the sodium carbonate solutions.

One thing that is great about knowing how to do these calculations is that you can do them for ANY desired solution with ANY different type of acid or base.

Any other chemists out there please check my work to make 100% sure I did them correctly.

But these calculations are useful only if you are trying to play with the pH of water alone...

As long as you factor plant material (which has its own composition of acids, buffers and whatnot) the calculations quickly become so confounding they are irrelevant any more. As others said, just buy a pH meter or even make your own pH strips or just rely on your intuition.

FYI: pH for the acidic step does not really need to be 4, regardless of what other may say; there are things like low pH (in combination with prolonged heating etc ) possibly aiding lysis, but all that is theoretical. In addition, to get a 1 litre solution containing aqueous plant extracts (made without exogenous acids added) to pH of 13 you need much more than 4 g of NaOH, in practice. Depending of the amount of your starting plant material it can easily take over 20 g of NaOH / litre.

 

[ChemicalEnthusiast]

Btw ph meters on eBay $7.99

I have heard that pH meters that are that cheap are not reliable. Just based on reviews and what not.

As long as you factor plant material (which has its own composition of acids, buffers and whatnot) the calculations quickly become so confounding they are irrelevant any more.

Unless the plant material is highly acidic (or basic) it is unlikely to change the pH by any significant amount. The pH scale is a logarithmic scale. This means that a solution at pH 3 is 10 times more acidic than one at pH 4. A similar argument can be made for your comment about getting the solution to pH 13. I would highly doubt you would need anywhere near 20g NaOH.

Also, if it is unimportant to get a precise pH measurement (as everyone keeps reiterating), then why would you use pH papers or a meter at all. Isn't that a little contradictory.. If it truly doesn't matter how accurate you are than why wouldn't one just aim between pH 3 and pH 4 (for the acidic step) and pH 13 and pH 14 for the basification? Wouldn't that make buying pH papers or a meter an unnecessary expense and waste of time?

Thanks for the input everyone!!

 

[Earthwalker]

Infundibulum is correct the table you've made is a guide for water only , the bark does make a huge part of the ph , also you seem to be taking the advice of very experienced heads as criticism , forgive me if I'm wrong but this is a discusion not an attack ! :?:

 

[benzyme]

Also, if it is unimportant to get a precise pH measurement (as everyone keeps reiterating), then why would you use pH papers or a meter at all. Isn't that a little contradictory.. If it truly doesn't matter how accurate you are than why wouldn't one just aim between pH 3 and pH 4 (for the acidic step) and pH 13 and pH 14 for the basification? Wouldn't that make buying pH papers or a meter an unnecessary expense and waste of time?

some people also partake in more advanced extractions, such as LSA, and psilocin, where monitoring the pH is absolutely crucial, not just DMT (which is more forgiving).

for chemists and hobbyists alike, a meter is an indispensible tool, like a digital multimeter for the electrician/electrical hobbyist. it's also necessary if one wishes to employ charge-based separation like IEX.
certain tools are just essential for an efficient/clean, time-effective extraction...a pH meter, a sep funnel, and a vacuum pump w/buchner. i'd expect you to know this.

 

[Infundibulum]

As long as you factor plant material (which has its own composition of acids, buffers and whatnot) the calculations quickly become so confounding they are irrelevant any more.

Unless the plant material is highly acidic (or basic) it is unlikely to change the pH by any significant amount. The pH scale is a logarithmic scale. This means that a solution at pH 3 is 10 times more acidic than one at pH 4. A similar argument can be made for your comment about getting the solution to pH 13. I would highly doubt you would need anywhere near 20g NaOH.

The pH of most plant extracts (as in those most commonly mentioned here in the nexus) is around 5 give or take. But the main problem is the often underestimated buffering capacities of plant extracts.

I also understand your doubt re the amount of NaOH I quote earlier, but I suggest you try it yourself. I did in the past when I was fiddling with calculations and found so to my surprise; in particularly, I was amazed how slowly the pH of cactus aqueous extract was rising after copious additions of NaOH. My point is that, generally speaking, you are likely to find yourself wrong if you try to extrapolate predictions from simple systems (such as water, one acid, one base) to much complex ones. Not everything is as simple as ABC.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Not everything is as simple as ABC.

But this is!

 

[ChemicalEnthusiast]

Infundibulum is correct the table you've made is a guide for water only , the bark does make a huge part of the ph , also you seem to be taking the advice of very experienced heads as criticism , forgive me if I'm wrong but this is a discusion not an attack ! :?:

NO! I'm definitely not taking their advice and opinions as criticism! I appreciate everything they've said! This definitely is a discussion. I do believe I have valuable knowledge and insight though as I have done a considerable amount of natural product extraction for my undergraduate research for the last two years. I have extracted many different alkaloids from natural sources including seeds, leaves, and bark and not one of these sources has had a significant effect on the pH.

some people also partake in more advanced extractions, such as LSA, and psilocin, where monitoring the pH is absolutely crucial, not just DMT (which is more forgiving).

for chemists and hobbyists alike, a meter is an indispensible tool, like a digital multimeter for the electrician/electrical hobbyist. it's also necessary if one wishes to employ charge-based separation like IEX.
certain tools are just essential for an efficient/clean, time-effective extraction...a pH meter, a sep funnel, and a vacuum pump w/buchner. i'd expect you to know this.

There's no doubt that having all of these tools at your disposal is very useful and essential for more complicated extractions. There is also no doubt in my mind that many people (possibly the majority) that extract DMT have none of these tools. My post was intended for people with little experience that don't have these tools. As you said, DMT is more forgiving, and therefore these tools are not as necessary.

The pH of most plant extracts (as in those most commonly mentioned here in the nexus) is around 5 give or take. But the main problem is the often underestimated buffering capacities of plant extracts.

Wouldn't the buffer only have an effect within the buffer range? Outside the buffer range the pH changes proportional to the amount of strong acid or base added if I'm correct. The buffer range (pKa + or - 1) is almost certainly no where near as high as pH 13 or as low as pH 4. I definitely could be wrong about this though.

I also understand your doubt re the amount of NaOH I quote earlier, but I suggest you try it yourself. I did in the past when I was fiddling with calculations and found so to my surprise; in particularly, I was amazed how slowly the pH of cactus aqueous extract was rising after copious additions of NaOH. My point is that, generally speaking, you are likely to find yourself wrong if you try to extrapolate predictions from simple systems (such as water, one acid, one base) to much complex ones. Not everything is as simple as ABC.

I will definitely mess with this on my own. And just to clarify, I was not suggesting anyone to only use 4 g of NaOH. First of all, that calculation was starting at a pH of 7 and when doing an acid-base extraction the starting pH is around 4 (the pH after the acid extraction). Second, I noted in my original post that I recommend using much more, as stated in most teks. There are two main reasons: the solubility of NaOH is so high that there is really no reason to not use much more just to be safe, and using more NaOH helps with those nasty emulsions.


I'm sorry if I offended anyone! I really wasn't trying to! I was rather defending the fact that I believe the information I provided IS useful to many people that are extracting DMT. AND that you really don't need pH papers or a meter to extract DMT. It just seems like every tek says that having papers or a meter is essential. Thats why I made this post to begin with. I have given these instructions to friends that have no chemistry background and they have been very successful in extracting from Acacia.

Again, thanks for everyones contributions and opinions. I was hoping to get a good discussion out of this.

 

[benzyme]

nah, nobody's offended.
but you are underestimating the practical (applied) knowledge of the board. people do get pH pens, and we have
dedicated threads on pH meter maintenance, as well as other equipment, chromatography, etc.

what looks good on paper doesn't necessarily look good in practice (N.P.I. ... though that can also apply with respect to academia).