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How to have a DMT experience without the substance
- Thread starter Limbol
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entheogenic-gnosis
Rising Star
Intezam said:
I never take anything personally.
This is a primarily western audience, so for understandability and brevity I use "Tibetan book of the dead" over "The Book of Natural Liberation through Understanding in the Between" or "Bardo Thodol"
...which was actually derived from a larger text titled "the Profound Dharma of Self-Liberation through the Intention of the Peaceful and Wrathful Ones" introduced by Karma Lingpa (1326–1386) The Tibetan book of the dead was said to have been originally revealed in the 8th century by Padmasambhava, written down by his primary student, Yeshe Tsogyal. It was said This text was then burried, and was said to have been re-discovered by Karma Lingpa, in the 14th century.
This is all fascinating history, but it is truly irrelevant in this situation, I mean if you want to split hairs over nomenclature and history that's fine, however this thread regards DMT experience without the substance, I'm sure everyone knew what I was speaking about the first time, besides I don't discount modern interpretations with the title "Tibetan book of the dead", I thought Robert Thurman's "Tibetan Book of the Dead: Natural Liberation Through Understanding in the Between" was a great addition, I particularly enjoy how he refers to the Buddhist monks as "psychonauts", it strengthens the connection I have already sensed between the territory of DMT and the territory of certain types of Buddhist practice.
-eg
the dream-dmt connection is, and always has been, a subject of anecdotes and conjecture. a hypothesis.
personally, I've had very realistic dreams of pcp and cocaine experiences.
the brain is very convincing at creating an alternate reality during REM sleep (and into waking consciousness), based on memories derived from the senses/past experiences, sometimes remixed with a bit of imagination.
as for the neurochemistry...typical endogenous DMT plasma concentrations would need to be somewhere upwards of 10^6-fold higher, to exceed the threshold depolarization level needed for noticeable central activity resembling anything like a common dmt experience. (Presti et. al, 2004)
personally, I've had very realistic dreams of pcp and cocaine experiences.
the brain is very convincing at creating an alternate reality during REM sleep (and into waking consciousness), based on memories derived from the senses/past experiences, sometimes remixed with a bit of imagination.
as for the neurochemistry...typical endogenous DMT plasma concentrations would need to be somewhere upwards of 10^6-fold higher, to exceed the threshold depolarization level needed for noticeable central activity resembling anything like a common dmt experience. (Presti et. al, 2004)
@benz
My question is [excuse the chem ignorance], this 10^6 fold of DMT plasma concentration, what's the possibility you think that these levels could be reached within some sort of freak-means - i.e.: certain dreams, maybe specific waking reality situations?
The first experience I had in my dream was threshhold, but definitely distinct to DMTs comeup. The second time some several months later was a complete-all-the bells-n-whistles DMT breakthrough. I remember laying there in my bed thinking "how in the heck!??".
You know the funny thing is, when I was holding the pipe in the dream getting ready to light it; there's this feeling that would build up. I can't describe it, but it's happened many other times in my life. Can't put words to it. Only way I can describe it is something along the lines of "..you've done this before".
My question is [excuse the chem ignorance], this 10^6 fold of DMT plasma concentration, what's the possibility you think that these levels could be reached within some sort of freak-means - i.e.: certain dreams, maybe specific waking reality situations?
The first experience I had in my dream was threshhold, but definitely distinct to DMTs comeup. The second time some several months later was a complete-all-the bells-n-whistles DMT breakthrough. I remember laying there in my bed thinking "how in the heck!??".
You know the funny thing is, when I was holding the pipe in the dream getting ready to light it; there's this feeling that would build up. I can't describe it, but it's happened many other times in my life. Can't put words to it. Only way I can describe it is something along the lines of "..you've done this before".
highly unlikely.
the tryptophan metabolic pathway heavily favors serotonin production over the side pathway producing simple tryptamines,
and the receptors have greater affinity for serotonin.
metabolites of melatonin are more plausible, ex. pinoline, and related beta-carbolines
the tryptophan metabolic pathway heavily favors serotonin production over the side pathway producing simple tryptamines,
and the receptors have greater affinity for serotonin.
metabolites of melatonin are more plausible, ex. pinoline, and related beta-carbolines
I observe the "stress theory" (as does strassman, thompson, and other researchers), where it is highly plausible that the peripheral tissues in the heart, lungs, muscles, gut, and adrenal glands, are capable of producing appreciable amounts of dmt during times of extreme physical duress. however, it isn't common, for the aforementioned explanation regarding tryptophan metabolism.
the pineal gland responds to lack of light, by producing melatonin, which can metabolize into pinoline, a known MAOI.
like harmine, pinoline is psychoactive on its own.
the pineal gland responds to lack of light, by producing melatonin, which can metabolize into pinoline, a known MAOI.
like harmine, pinoline is psychoactive on its own.
entheogenic-gnosis
Rising Star
benzyme said:
I still don't feel extensive enough testing has yet been preformed, and as our methods of detection improve, and as the scale of research increases, we may find that this is not as unlikely as it seems.
it would be interesting to quantify the endogenous DMT present while one is awake versus the quantity while one is in REM sleep...
Though if DMT levels only reach the quantity necessary for producing psychedelia under freak circumstances, it still fits in with endogenous DMT playing a role in certain types of abduction phenomena, mystical experience, NDE's, and so on, as these are freak events, and still fits in with Dr. Strassmans conjecture.
All the "dream DMT" events I know of are anecdotal, and as a skeptic and a scientific thinker, I would share your exact views, except these have happened to me before, and they are just as rattling as smoked DMT, often it's in conjunction with my sleep paralysis, and it's extremely frightening, as I always believe that I had actually died...
I've had dreams where I take MDMA or psilocybin, and I'll feel like I'm on an entactogen, or I like I'm hallucinating, but it's not convincing in the same way these DMT events are...
This is just wild speculation off the top of my head, so I apologize if there are any obvious errors I missed regarding why this would not happen: Could it be neuroplaciticity? Is your brain re-creating and re-using pathways identical to a person's brain who had ingested DMT? Your brain wouldn't have recall of these novel functioning states prior to DMT, but perhaps after one has ingested it, the brain can re-create and re-use functioning and pathways identical to the functioning and pathways your brain experiences while on DMT? (Thalamic gating, dorsal raphe nuclei stop firing, lower blood flow to the thalamus, the posterior cingulate and the medial prefrontal cortex, etc...)?
Ok here's the pathways:
5-hydroxy-tryptamine
Tryptophan enters the system, is 5-hydroxylated to 5-hydroxy-tryptophan (5-HTP), then decarboxalated to 5-hydroxy-tryptamine (serotonin)
Or:
N,N-dimethyltryptamine
Tryptophan enters the system, is decarboxalated (amino acid decarboxylase) giving tryptamine, this tryptamine is then methylated by the indole amine methyl transerase (INMT) S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM) (which becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH) after donating the methyl group) giving N-methyl-tryptamine (NMT) Which is again methylated (INMT; SAM giving SAH as it donates the methyl group) giving dimethyltryptamine.
The 5-hydroxy-tryptamine pathway is vastly preferred...
pinoline
When serotonin enters the pineal body it becomes N-acetyl-5-hydroxy-tryptamine, and is then converted to N-acetyl-5-methoxy-tryptamine (melatonin) which is further converted to 6-methoxy-tetrahydro-beta-carboline (pinoline)
-eg
yup.
I've posted the KEGG pathway several years ago, it's common knowledge in the main forum.
I've done dmt a number of times, never had a dream that resembled it. but, perhaps the memories just haven't been conjured yet.
ACh is predominant during REM sleep.
I've posted the KEGG pathway several years ago, it's common knowledge in the main forum.
I've done dmt a number of times, never had a dream that resembled it. but, perhaps the memories just haven't been conjured yet.
ACh is predominant during REM sleep.
Everything is possible in your dreams. But if the DMT-experience in dreams would be exactly like a real-life DMT-experience, then why would you want to continue taking DMT after the first time? Why not master the art of lucid-dreaming instead?
My own personal answer to this question would be that there's a certain level of lucidity, that even the most lucid dreams, are simply lacking.
But maybe that's just me, and maybe others don't experience it that way.
My own personal answer to this question would be that there's a certain level of lucidity, that even the most lucid dreams, are simply lacking.
But maybe that's just me, and maybe others don't experience it that way.
I 
my dissociated dreams.
my dissociated dreams.
arcana said:
I have had one memorable breakthrough experience during a dream and wierdly enough I only have memory of it during dreams.. it was just a couple weeks ago that I was in a dream and I had vivid recollection of having experienced it some time back.. I think there was something distinctly differen't about it too though..
dragonrider said:
I think its important to have these experiences from the baseline of everyday reality too though.. its a good reference point for coming back and processing the experience. dreams themselve's are already very difficult to remember.. something as inneffable as hyperspace, experienced within something as ever fluctuating as a dream.. it just seems like it would make things too hard to remember. As stated in my previous post, I don't remember anything of my dmt experiences in my dreams unless I am actually in my dreams..
not that it isn't worth exploring of course...i just don't think it has to be one or the other
entheogenic-gnosis
Rising Star
dragonrider said:
Because it can't be done on demand...
In my case it's almost always in conjunction with sleep paralysis, which can't be predicted...
I've wanted to ask a lucid dreamer who has had experience with DMT if they can have on demand DMT dreams, but after discussing the topic here many times, I've never found such an individual...
Anybody who has not had this happen to them will be rightfully skeptical, had I not experienced I would be as well, though I'm not certain what causes it, could it be neuroplaciticity, endogenous DMT, some type of intense recall of past memory, could the brain be mimicking the psychedelic state?
-eg
entheogenic-gnosis
Rising Star
benzyme said:
I don't mean to be redundant with the pathways, I just enjoy them. I felt it was a decent contribution to the thread, plus I like the ways I have worded these pathways, I feel I have written them out in a very quick, understandable, and simple manner.
Though there's also a potential biosynthetic pathway I've been very curious about:
You have dopamine endogenously as well as S-Adenosyl methionine*, so, technically this dopamine could have a HO grouping enzamatically added to position 5, then SAM could donate CH3 groups to positions 3,4 and 5 giving 3,4,5-trimethoxy-phenethylamine
*
So under certain conditions, mescaline could be endogenous, no? I mean as far as I know there's no evidence that mescaline is ever produced endogenous, but it technically could be...
you have endogenous dimethyltryptamine, endogenous 6-methoxy-tetrahydrohydro-beta-carboline (a compound which resembles harmala alkaloids), and potentially mescaline could be endogenously, this is all quite fascinating to me, I mean just the close relation between your higher neurotransmitters (which are tryptamines and phenethylamines) to the traditional psychedelics (which are tryptamines and phenethylamines) is fairly exciting to me, so endogenous psychedelics was an instant interest...
-eg
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very unlikely.
it would be oxidized and excreted long before a third hydroxylation.
analogous to tryptophan metabolism, the pathway heavily favors production of another neurotransmitter..norepinephrine.
it would be oxidized and excreted long before a third hydroxylation.
analogous to tryptophan metabolism, the pathway heavily favors production of another neurotransmitter..norepinephrine.
Sometimes, on ayahuasca, i can 're-enter' dreams i've had.acacian said:
There's probably a reason why we have dreams. Integrating experiences and stuff. From that perspective, it's not that strange that people can have DMT-experiences in their dreams. If there's anything that could use a little integrating.....
entheogenic-gnosis
Rising Star
benzyme said:
Got it. Thank you.
...under very rare circumstances it could happen though?
-eg
nah.
it's probably not energetically favorable.
it's probably not energetically favorable.
downwardsfromzero
Boundary condition
Not to mention we'd probably need a cactus enzyme to ring-hydroxylate the O-methyldopamine as well as serious amounts of MAO inhibition required for the substrate to survive for long enough.benzyme said:
Otherwise it's an interesting idea. DMPEA formation is much more likely and indeed is known to occur.