How to Stay High Forever: Meditation, reducing endogenous MAO and the effect on quality of life.

[sØrce]

Hey fellow Nexians,

HEre is a preliminary thesis my brain has assembled which I will attempt to back with sources. I hope you find it intriguing! It is working for me.

Lately I've been living really well, and I finally feel I've acheived a calmer state of mind overall. I've attempted to make my actions and thoughts a kind of constant meditation. Focusing on every moment, using my whole awareness and body and also eliminating outside sources of stress and agitation. What I learned was that serotonin is the chemical that is related to arousal and reflexivity in the bodily system and is intimately related to the mental state. A mind/body connection.

Anxiety and platelet MAO levels after relaxation training.

Posttreatment values for anxiety and enzyme activity were significantly lower than pretreatment values...

I attempt to eliminate bad habits as they take our attention away. Things we do routinely or compulsively or when I react emotionally or with negativity, I am not focused. The less routines we live with the more we live immersed in the moment. Attention is our life force and habits dull it, literally creating an opening for our imminent death. If we are immersed in life we are truly alivea and living, yes?

Making your life a practice in continual meditation can still mean sports, eating healthy, martial arts, loving, reading, writing, and so on. If it is focusing it cant really be agitating can it? Flogging with a bamboo cane for example. Your local fight club on the other hand could be too agitating because it is overly indulgent in hedonism. Porn no, tantric sex yes.
(Tantric intercourse training for men: how and why.)

Stopping lazy watching of tv, eating junk food, alcohol, intoxicants that dampen awareness instead of enhance it, escapism. Indulgences that are detracting. I think we get the idea. Dancing creatively is good. Walking through the forest. Good stuff is good stuff.

SO what I learned was that serotonin is directly related to arousal and the mind-body connection. BUT serotonin makes us sleepy after we eat sugar! BY creating a peak then a slump which is a state of calm... Like a mushroom afterglow. (I wondered about this until my brain amended it.)

The link between Monoamine Oxidase and too much serotonin is that MAO sweeps serotonin out of the brain. This is for survival. Excess chemicals in the brain cause inflammation, an inability to concentrate, headache, even stroke and death. They literally clog the works like foreign bodies. So our bodies have adapted to counteract serotonin buildup. The thing is, as we so well know, some chemicals have cross-receptivity at receptor sites and maybe that is why MAO is non-selective. It chomps -amines! Many amines are good as we will soon explore...

IF agitation is reduced, MAO can decrease overall. What this means is that your brain becomes sensitive to its own great stuff. We know the benefits of MAOI however it often comes with the side effect of increased agitation rather than a feeling of ease and calm. That is most likely related to chemical imbalances like excess serotonin from overstimulation from external and internal agitation, it would stand to reason to me.

In the case of meditation, one can reduce agitation and endogenous MAO, then reap the rewards of sensitivity to all the other monoamines! Melatonin, for example, which some nexians promote the supplementation of, is the master hormone which signals the production of other endocrine-produced hormones. So in the end a person benefits more from everything, could increase testosterone, endogenous anandamide (cannabanoid in the brain linked to pleasurable feelings), feel a more rewarding life through dopamine sensitivity, perhaps experience sensory enhancement from endogenous tryptamines theoretically. I don't need to know all the works to know endogenous chemicals good outside extras usually not so much. I know I now experience continual color enhancement as if I was on a low dose of 5meoMipt, with auditory sensitivity and other neat-o effects. Consequently you will also feel more agitated from caffeine or simply agitation, and so it can be a constant practice in discipline as you become more sensitive, focus more and reduce external and internal agitation. Sensitivity to life increases and focus keeps increasing. I literally feel like I am chemically-enhanced all the time.

The other day someone commented that "THe Nex' seems to be a place for new agers to promote meditation." as if it were a conspiracy! As if DMT was not a catalyst to show us that being immersed in the moment is our ideal state! Many spiritual practices promote this, and I am saying that agitation reduction and a decrease in endogenous MAO is the missing piece. I have learned to access hyperspace via meditation and you can too. DMT is external and temporal and may not help you in your final breath, who knows. Become the change you want to see when the "external" world vanishes.

I am grateful for this site and the universe for arranging this explanation for me.

Bring on the new-age!

❤❤❤ ~Ø~ ❤❤❤

Uncle John's Band- Grateful Dead

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Much Gratitude and Love to Dreamer042 for supporting my thesis with the following sources:

Devi, S. K., Chansauria, J. P. N., & Udupa, K. N. (1986). Mental depression and kundalini yoga. Ancient science of life, 6(2), 112.

Tooley, G. A., Armstrong, S. M., Norman, T. R., & Sali, A. (2000). Acute increases in night-time plasma melatonin levels following a period of meditation. Biological Psychology, 53(1), 69-78.Brenner, E.; Stahlberg, R.; Mancuso, S.; Vivanco, J.; Baluska, F.; Vanvolkenburgh, E. (2006).

Harinath, K., Malhotra, A. S., Pal, K., Prasad, R., Kumar, R., Kain, T. C., ... & Sawhney, R. C. (2004). Effects of Hatha yoga and Omkar meditation on cardiorespiratory performance, psychologic profile, and melatonin secretion. The Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine, 10(2), 261-268.

Here is a link to a bunch on brainwaves and high-performance exercise:

Google result: Brainwaves and high-performance exercise.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/223488/Concentration_Brainwaves_Fact_Sheet.pdf

 

[universecannon]

You make some good points . I'm glad your life has taken a good turn in recent times!

Like dreamer said, in some ways this is just a narrow snippet of what is likely going on in these "sober" psychedelic (or merely just slightly perceptually enhanced) states. You're forgetting that there is a number of MAOIs (such as pinoline etc.) that will in all likelihood be increased via meditation and other technique, given that the studies have shown things like meditation/yoga/certain plant foods increase melatonin production, and melatonin goes hand in hand with pinoline. Harmine and harmaline are very psychedelic and mind altering at high doses, so perhaps these endogenous ones are as well. Then there is the host of other tryptamines that might be produced as pineal activity increases (and/or whose activity would at least be potentiated by the increase in MAOIs present).

Many of us here have experienced dmt or ayahuasca-type states without ingesting anything, either spontaneously or through a variety of techniques (they work best if combined IMO). But all the focus these days on DMT seems to obscure all of these other things or processes in the brain that would likely be going on. To me it seems like some kind of weird "endo-huasca" rather than just a DMT experience. And different techniques can bring it about in slightly different expressions.

" I don't need to know all the works to know endogenous chemicals good outside extras usually not so much. "

What is your reasoning behind this though?

I wouldn't be so quick to write off exogenous use. We need the plants and their biochemistry for our food and our medicines. We couldn't live without them. It's a symbiotic interwoven thing. I think this applies to brain chemistry and the teacher plants to. They can help us build the neural bridge and reconnect with these dormant heightened states of consciousness that lay behind the thick veil of mundane consensus reality. My sober practices have been greatly enhanced by my work with the plants, and even just melatonin and harmala supplemention has as well. I don't see meditation as a replacement for psychedelics, or psychedelics as some kind of shortcut/easy path - I see them them all as complimentary or synergistic to eachother. For example, and I know I've cited it countless times in the chat, so bare with me, but melatonin supplementation has been shown to increase endogenous production of melatonin even after you stop taking it. And I suspect similar findings would result from more careful observation of ingesting other things such as harmalas and perhaps DMT. And this molecule melatonin does way way more than merely promote a good nights sleep.

 

[jamie]

good thread.

I personally find when I follow a daily yoga and meditation routine I progress more when that is in combination with ayahuasca or other teas. Either one of the two alone is less effective IME that when combined into a path.

 

[sØrce]

Thanks guys, your points are significant and taken.

Like dreamer said, in some ways this is just a narrow snippet of what is likely going on in these "sober" psychedelic (or merely just slightly perceptually enhanced) states. You're forgetting that there is a number of MAOIs (such as pinoline etc.) that will in all likelihood be increased via meditation and other technique, given that the studies have shown things like meditation/yoga/certain plant foods increase melatonin production, and melatonin goes hand in hand with pinoline. Harmine and harmaline are very psychedelic and mind altering at high doses, so perhaps these endogenous ones are as well. Then there is the host of other tryptamines that might be produced as pineal activity increases (and/or whose activity would at least be potentiated by the increase in MAOIs present).

Many of us here have experienced dmt or ayahuasca-type states without ingesting anything, either spontaneously or through a variety of techniques (they work best if combined IMO). But all the focus these days on DMT seems to obscure all of these other things or processes in the brain that would likely be going on. To me it seems like some kind of weird "endo-huasca" rather than just a DMT experience. And different techniques can bring it about in slightly different expressions.

" I don't need to know all the works to know endogenous chemicals good outside extras usually not so much. "

What is your reasoning behind this though?

Most of the chemicals that were mentioned as beneficial are also endogenous. If it is in the body it probably is good to have it in the body... kinda generalization. (Generalizations I should probably try to avoid, generally. But without hunches theses could not unfold and become actual, solidified and supported. All "facts" are initially theories until they seem infallible in the context of all other evidence. Although I don't always demonstrate my awareness of that with language or "in action", preferring to run with notions, I'm working on it. I'm admittedly a bit of a maniac but knowing that, it should evolve before long.)\

Melatonin for example. It seems to me that with supplementation it brings the body to a more efficient level of function so that endogenous melatonin can be better utilized. The "break" that has been mentioned in the body's production could be demonstrating a better utilization of endogenous Melatonin. Sensitivity related to the heightened abilities of the bodily system holistically (as well as the results on states of mind.)
For example Caffeine is not endogenous and using it to counteract stuff like depression can mechanically heighten arousal and possibly move a person to a happier state, but not directly. They are not interrelated directly like stuff in your body can be. But where the division lies, I can't be sure... I have a good idea and more on that in a moment. SSRI's increase serotonin but that doesn't necessarily alleviate depression in the long run- "move" a body/mind to an improved state, sometimes it merely creates runaway ssri dependence of sorts.

The good idea I mentioned before is that it seems apparent that the division between what is good and what is bad is AT serotonin, and chemicals can be evaluated as better or worse depending on whether they can foster or reduce agitation. Move the body holistically to a state of reduced agitation. It could be debated that all input whether chemical or merely perceptual can reduce agitation depending on the conscious intent of the total being. An advanced soul could do a line of cocaine for example and not be susceptible to the outcome of a more depressed one. A more depressed person is trying to move out of depression and is thus susceptible to the devastating outcome, as the reward outweighs the consequences. FOR EXAMPLE. (do not 'test' yourself with lines of cocaine lol)

I strongly feel that all of life is trying to tell our consciousness that agitation should be reduced through focusing the mind and conscious intent. I'm not assigning and selling mantras but I can see why Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was so popular for doing so in the sixties. One can't really compare one technique to another, it is the total movement towards reduced agitation that is ideal.

One could generalize that MAOI can be a tool to reduce agitatoin comparable to meditation. The resulting agitation that MAOI-induced intoxication could be comparable to the sensitivity resulting from meditation, in that once one is familiar with the meditative state, it is not likely they will disregard their new level of sensitivity and watch violent videos to reach a state of arousal. They could, and the resulting de-sensitivity would be tragic, but it is very unlikely. Getting high is the finest strategy, innate in our beings to want to feel better, and why we survive. (I think we can accept that generalization)

I wouldn't be so quick to write off exogenous use. We need the plants and their biochemistry for our food and our medicines. We couldn't live without them. It's a symbiotic interwoven thing. I think this applies to brain chemistry and the teacher plants to. They can help us build the neural bridge and reconnect with these dormant heightened states of consciousness that lay behind the thick veil of mundane consensus reality

Neither would I, but I only want to introduce exogenous chemicals that are a catalyst to reduce agitation, so I still consider the theory i proposed to be of the utmost significance.. I now see that full-on hyperspace is also an induced state of mind where the significance of being immersed in the ever-present now seems true and complete. I find this truth more significant than all of the supplementation. Perhaps even food can be reduced over time to heighten awareness. It is said the Buddha ate one hemp seed a day. I use calorie restriction currently and enjoy the results of improving concentration through intent and stable blood sugar reducing agitation.

~Ø~

 

[Prana2020]

As always, bringing quality material to the forums, sØrce.

I meditate daily for this reason. Soon I feel my mind will be able to produce enough stimulants to ignore all negativity and leave behind all trifle issues.

 

[Heretic]

Hey fellow Nexians,

HEre is a preliminary thesis my brain has assembled which I will attempt to back with sources. I hope you find it intriguing! It is working for me.

Lately I've been living really well, and I finally feel I've acheived a calmer state of mind overall. I've attempted to make my actions and thoughts a kind of constant meditation. Focusing on every moment, using my whole awareness and body and also eliminating outside sources of stress and agitation. What I learned was that serotonin is the chemical that is related to arousal and reflexivity in the bodily system and is intimately related to the mental state. A mind/body connection.

Anxiety and platelet MAO levels after relaxation training.

Posttreatment values for anxiety and enzyme activity were significantly lower than pretreatment values...

I attempt to eliminate bad habits as they take our attention away. Things we do routinely or compulsively or when I react emotionally or with negativity, I am not focused. The less routines we live with the more we live immersed in the moment. Attention is our life force and habits dull it, literally creating an opening for our imminent death. If we are immersed in life we are truly alivea and living, yes?

Making your life a practice in continual meditation can still mean sports, eating healthy, martial arts, loving, reading, writing, and so on. If it is focusing it cant really be agitating can it? Flogging with a bamboo cane for example. Your local fight club on the other hand could be too agitating because it is overly indulgent in hedonism. Porn no, tantric sex yes.
(Tantric intercourse training for men: how and why.)

Stopping lazy watching of tv, eating junk food, alcohol, intoxicants that dampen awareness instead of enhance it, escapism. Indulgences that are detracting. I think we get the idea. Dancing creatively is good. Walking through the forest. Good stuff is good stuff.

SO what I learned was that serotonin is directly related to arousal and the mind-body connection. BUT serotonin makes us sleepy after we eat sugar! BY creating a peak then a slump which is a state of calm... Like a mushroom afterglow. (I wondered about this until my brain amended it.)

The link between Monoamine Oxidase and too much serotonin is that MAO sweeps serotonin out of the brain. This is for survival. Excess chemicals in the brain cause inflammation, an inability to concentrate, headache, even stroke and death. They literally clog the works like foreign bodies. So our bodies have adapted to counteract serotonin buildup. The thing is, as we so well know, some chemicals have cross-receptivity at receptor sites and maybe that is why MAO is non-selective. It chomps -amines! Many amines are good as we will soon explore...

IF agitation is reduced, MAO can decrease overall. What this means is that your brain becomes sensitive to its own great stuff. We know the benefits of MAOI however it often comes with the side effect of increased agitation rather than a feeling of ease and calm. That is most likely related to chemical imbalances like excess serotonin from overstimulation from external and internal agitation, it would stand to reason to me.

In the case of meditation, one can reduce agitation and endogenous MAO, then reap the rewards of sensitivity to all the other monoamines! Melatonin, for example, which some nexians promote the supplementation of, is the master hormone which signals the production of other endocrine-produced hormones. So in the end a person benefits more from everything, could increase testosterone, endogenous anandamide (cannabanoid in the brain linked to pleasurable feelings), feel a more rewarding life through dopamine sensitivity, perhaps experience sensory enhancement from endogenous tryptamines theoretically. I don't need to know all the works to know endogenous chemicals good outside extras usually not so much. I know I now experience continual color enhancement as if I was on a low dose of 5meoMipt, with auditory sensitivity and other neat-o effects. Consequently you will also feel more agitated from caffeine or simply agitation, and so it can be a constant practice in discipline as you become more sensitive, focus more and reduce external and internal agitation. Sensitivity to life increases and focus keeps increasing. I literally feel like I am chemically-enhanced all the time.

The other day someone commented that "THe Nex' seems to be a place for new agers to promote meditation." as if it were a conspiracy! As if DMT was not a catalyst to show us that being immersed in the moment is our ideal state! Many spiritual practices promote this, and I am saying that agitation reduction and a decrease in endogenous MAO is the missing piece. I have learned to access hyperspace via meditation and you can too. DMT is external and temporal and may not help you in your final breath, who knows. Become the change you want to see when the "external" world vanishes.

I am grateful for this site and the universe for arranging this explanation for me.

Bring on the new-age!

❤❤❤ ~Ø~ ❤❤❤

Uncle John's Band- Grateful Dead

____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Much Gratitude and Love to Dreamer042 for supporting my thesis with the following sources:

Devi, S. K., Chansauria, J. P. N., & Udupa, K. N. (1986). Mental depression and kundalini yoga. Ancient science of life, 6(2), 112.

Tooley, G. A., Armstrong, S. M., Norman, T. R., & Sali, A. (2000). Acute increases in night-time plasma melatonin levels following a period of meditation. Biological Psychology, 53(1), 69-78.Brenner, E.; Stahlberg, R.; Mancuso, S.; Vivanco, J.; Baluska, F.; Vanvolkenburgh, E. (2006).

Harinath, K., Malhotra, A. S., Pal, K., Prasad, R., Kumar, R., Kain, T. C., ... & Sawhney, R. C. (2004). Effects of Hatha yoga and Omkar meditation on cardiorespiratory performance, psychologic profile, and melatonin secretion. The Journal of Alternative & Complementary Medicine, 10(2), 261-268.

Here is a link to a bunch on brainwaves and high-performance exercise:

Google result: Brainwaves and high-performance exercise.

http://www.ausport.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/223488/Concentration_Brainwaves_Fact_Sheet.pdf

Beautiful post S0rce, I know exactly of what you speak, but was not aware of the stress connection to MAO. I have experienced very similar things, including a 6 month period where I felt like I was on a mild dose of mushrooms. I think diet and substance ingestion has a large part to do with this as well, as MAO not only metabolizes our endogenous amines, but also the toxins found in common foods, fermented foods are just a part of this I think.

During this period of my life, I was extremely sensitive to toxins and even cigarette smoke in the same room as me would induce a day long migraine, a sip of alcohol would produce the same the following day. The things I saw in this state of mind cannot be purely described as tryptaminergic, some of the effects were more orgasmic in nature, the pleasure emanating from the third eye region... stronger than any normal orgasm yet not overwhelming, an internal sensation of bliss that could be elicited multiple times a day if the synchronicity allowed it.

I think tryptamines are only the start, and through Eastern practices like tantra we can also cause our bodies to become sensitive to our endogenous phenethylamines.

Regards,

 

[deadhead4eva]

Being high all the time for me at least was enjoyable i activated myself with dmt and for me it was to much to see inside of everyone like being in new york city time square in a silent room i asked it to leave me and it did

 

[spacexplorer]

Being high all the time for me at least was enjoyable i activated myself with dmt and for me it was to much to see inside of everyone like being in new york city time square in a silent room i asked it to leave me and it did

You activated yourself permanently?

 

[joedirt]

For example, and I know I've cited it countless times in the chat, so bare with me, but melatonin supplementation has been shown to increase endogenous production of melatonin even after you stop taking it.

Forgive me universecannon as I'm never in chat... Would you mind sharing this reference? It just seems counterintuitive to almost all other neurotransmitters.. so I'd like to take a look at the paper..

I also know a friend who takes melatonin every night and say's he can't sleep without it... of course that could be because of a number of things, but he thinks it's because he is addicted to supplemental melatonin.. and for sure I mentioned you and your massive doses experiments and never mentioning a melatonin rebound or anything like that.. Anyway if you have the link I'd like to take a look and pass it to someone else.

I personally find when I follow a daily yoga and meditation routine I progress more when that is in combination with ayahuasca or other teas. Either one of the two alone is less effective IME that when combined into a path.

So I am essentially coming around to this as well. Several times now my meditation has gotten really deep and I've declared that I won't be using the plants any more.. and I don't for several months, but then something alway's calls me back to them. For me at least, I think as long as I keep my usage geared more towards the occasional entheogenic dose or the occasional recreational dose with friends I'm OK. But in the past i have used them to much and felt kinda disconnected to reality..

Like universecannon noted our relationship to the plants and biosphere is very symbiotic. So symbiotic that I essentially hold the view that there really isn't any division (other than a label in our mind) between us and the environment....

 

[jamie]

The meditative effects of melatonin seem to diminish in my experience over a couple of days when used every night. I sometimes do use it for a few weeks, but when I then stop for a week or two, and then take it again I get the same dreamy tryptamine effect again, for a night or two and then it just begins to make me sleep deeper.

My physician I had years ago told me that melatonin has been shown to build tolerance, and I trust her as she was very open minded, studied holistic health care after medical school etc, as well as ayurveda, yoga(she was indian) etc..so she was not biased against it's use as far as I could tell..so I am kind of weary of claims that tolerance does not build. People say you just get used to the effects, but that is a very subjective statement. Perhaps only tolerance builds to part of it's receptor activity profile?..increases in melatonin production does not necessarily mean absence of tolerance to it's effect.

I find long term use of it useful sometimes, anyway.

 

[Redguard]

The meditative effects of melatonin seem to diminish in my experience over a couple of days when used every night. I sometimes do use it for a few weeks, but when I then stop for a week or two, and then take it again I get the same dreamy tryptamine effect again, for a night or two and then it just begins to make me sleep deeper.

My physician I had years ago told me that melatonin has been shown to build tolerance, and I trust her as she was very open minded, studied holistic health care after medical school etc, as well as ayurveda, yoga(she was indian) etc..so she was not biased against it's use as far as I could tell..so I am kind of weary of claims that tolerance does not build. People say you just get used to the effects, but that is a very subjective statement. Perhaps only tolerance builds to part of it's receptor activity profile?..increases in melatonin production does not necessarily mean absence of tolerance to it's effect.

I find long term use of it useful sometimes, anyway.

I've also read that if you take too much melatonin then your body starts to produce less of it. Something to take into consideration.

 

[universecannon]

"I've also read that if you take too much melatonin then your body starts to produce less of it. Something to take into consideration."

I've heard this as well but have you seen any research that indicates that?

Joe,

I definitely don't think melatonin is a cure-all for sleep issues, far from it. I can see certain people with sleep issues getting somewhat dependent on it despite some studies showing that increases in Dim Light Melatonin Onset remained for a time post-treatment. The time it takes to return to normal seems to vary quite a lot from a few days to weeks to months from the studies I've seen, but I haven't come across anything yet showing a decrease in melatonin or DLMO post melatonin treatment compared to pre-treatment. I've attached an article titled "The amplitude of endogenous melatonin production is not affected by melatonin treatment in humans" showing that levels don't decrease below pre-treatment levels afterwords. I'm not sure which one I was referring to in my post above last year but here is a few more of possible interest.

"When the sleep propensity profile was examined 24 h after the last melatonin treatment (i.e. during the washout night, D11), the redistribution in sleep timing was found to persist, albeit to a lesser extent than during melatonin administration (e.g. D10)."

Melatonin advances the circadian timing of EEG sleep and directly facilitates sleep without altering its duration in extended sleep opportunities in humans

The rhythm of plasma melatonin originating from the pineal gland and driven by the circadian pacemaker located in the suprachiasmatic nucleus is closely associated with the circadian (approximately 24 h) variation in sleep propensity and sleep spindle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study claims "It may take about 3 months after stopping melatonin treatment before pre-treatment melatonin levels are reached again"

http://melatoninecheck.nl/files/ARTIKEL%20CLIN%20CHEM%20ACTA.pdf

Another concludes: "Melatonin dependence or rebound insomnia was not reported after discontinuing melatonin. We usually advice all patients (children and adults) to discontinue melatonin treatment each year during at least 1 wk (preferably during the summer). So far, nobody did report melatonin dependence,
rebound insomnia or withdrawal symptoms. To our knowledge no studies have been published that investigated these topics systematically in children or adults"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-079X.2009.00681.x/abstract

Others similar to this one below find that in a smaller percentage of participants, sleep issues didn't return after discontinuing melatonin treatment. This was a short term usage study that found things returned to normal after about 1 week from what I recall.

Termination of short term melatonin treatment in children with delayed Dim Light Melatonin Onset: effects on sleep, health, behavior problems, and parenting stress - PubMed

This study showed that complete termination of treatment after 4 weeks of melatonin use was too early. However, clinicians may advise a lower dose after a successful treatment trial of several weeks.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

http://registration.akm.ch/einsicht.php?XNABSTRACT_ID=110286&XNSPRACHE_ID=2&XNKONGRESS_ID=118&XNMASKEN_ID=900

I don't have any issues with sleep at all after I stop taking melatonin, but I'm biased since I didn't go into it with sleep issues to begin with, and I engage in many other things that boost melatonin levels like a peculiar diet, meditation, yoga, ample darkness, and harmala usage.

One interesting thing is that some mao-a inhibitors such as harmine seem to increase melatonin production (see links below). This reflects my personal impressions from harmala dosing. Pinoline is very similar to harmine, inhibits mao-a, and is a metabolite of melatonin (there is several others like it as well in the brain, but ask dreamer about that since he has the proper citations ). This is unsurprising given that the high dose effects of melatonin can include harmala-esque qualities.

Perhaps it's possible that by increasing our own melatonin through something like say meditation, the increase in pinoline that comes along with it could at times create a feedback loop via its own effect of increasing melatonin production, thus resulting in more pinoline, thus resulting in more melatonin, and so on.

Here is some links on meditation/yoga/fruit/harmine/MAO-a inhibitors increasing melatonin. Bancopuma actually wrote a good article on how we are chronically deficient in melatonin, mostly due to artificial lighting. I think diet is a massive factor as well and that there is good reasoning behind the idea that we're deficient - which is the main reason I take it. I will link his article to.

http://the-nexian.me/home/knowledge/63-the-light-that-burns-night-time-illumination-and-melatonin-suppression

Acute increases in night-time plasma melatonin levels following a period of meditation - PubMed - meditation
Effects of Hatha yoga and Omkar meditation on cardiorespiratory performance, psychologic profile, and melatonin secretion - PubMed - yoga
Serum melatonin levels and antioxidant capacities after consumption of pineapple, orange, or banana by healthy male volunteers - PubMed - fruit

maoi/harmine
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0303720782900880
Regulation of rat pineal melatonin synthesis: effect of monoamine oxidase inhibition - PubMed
edit: woops, these are the same articles

These are from my bookmarks. I recently learned that access to full articles through my old university expires

 

[dreamer042]

Great post uni! :thumb_up:

I'm short on time at the moment but here is one moar reference.

This basically says that 5 mg doses of melatonin produce estimated peak blood levels 25 times above physiological levels, but do not alter endogenous melatonin production.

Sack, Robert L., et al. "Melatonin administration to blind people: phase advances and entrainment." Journal of Biological Rhythms 6.3 (1991): 249-261.

Melatonin administration to blind people: phase advances and entrainment - PubMed

The purpose of this study was to test the phase-shifting and entraining effects of melatonin in human subjects. Five totally blind men were found in a previous study to have free-running endogenous melatonin rhythms. Their rhythms were remarkably stable, so that any deviation from the predicted...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[joedirt]

"I've also read that if you take too much melatonin then your body starts to produce less of it. Something to take into consideration."

I've heard this as well but have you seen any research that indicates that?

Joe,

I definitely don't think melatonin is a cure-all for sleep issues, far from it. I can see certain people with sleep issues getting somewhat dependent on it despite some studies showing that increases in Dim Light Melatonin Onset remained for a time post-treatment. The time it takes to return to normal seems to vary quite a lot from a few days to weeks to months from the studies I've seen, but I haven't come across anything yet showing a decrease in melatonin or DLMO post melatonin treatment compared to pre-treatment. I've attached an article titled "The amplitude of endogenous melatonin production is not affected by melatonin treatment in humans" showing that levels don't decrease below pre-treatment levels afterwords. I'm not sure which one I was referring to in my post above last year but here is a few more of possible interest.

"When the sleep propensity profile was examined 24 h after the last melatonin treatment (i.e. during the washout night, D11), the redistribution in sleep timing was found to persist, albeit to a lesser extent than during melatonin administration (e.g. D10)."

Melatonin advances the circadian timing of EEG sleep and directly facilitates sleep without altering its duration in extended sleep opportunities in humans

The rhythm of plasma melatonin originating from the pineal gland and driven by the circadian pacemaker located in the suprachiasmatic nucleus is closely associated with the circadian (approximately 24 h) variation in sleep propensity and sleep spindle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study claims "It may take about 3 months after stopping melatonin treatment before pre-treatment melatonin levels are reached again"

http://melatoninecheck.nl/files/ARTIKEL%20CLIN%20CHEM%20ACTA.pdf

Another concludes: "Melatonin dependence or rebound insomnia was not reported after discontinuing melatonin. We usually advice all patients (children and adults) to discontinue melatonin treatment each year during at least 1 wk (preferably during the summer). So far, nobody did report melatonin dependence,
rebound insomnia or withdrawal symptoms. To our knowledge no studies have been published that investigated these topics systematically in children or adults"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1600-079X.2009.00681.x/abstract

Others similar to this one below find that in a smaller percentage of participants, sleep issues didn't return after discontinuing melatonin treatment. This was a short term usage study that found things returned to normal after about 1 week from what I recall.

Termination of short term melatonin treatment in children with delayed Dim Light Melatonin Onset: effects on sleep, health, behavior problems, and parenting stress - PubMed

This study showed that complete termination of treatment after 4 weeks of melatonin use was too early. However, clinicians may advise a lower dose after a successful treatment trial of several weeks.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

http://registration.akm.ch/einsicht.php?XNABSTRACT_ID=110286&XNSPRACHE_ID=2&XNKONGRESS_ID=118&XNMASKEN_ID=900

I don't have any issues with sleep at all after I stop taking melatonin, but I'm biased since I didn't go into it with sleep issues to begin with, and I engage in many other things that boost melatonin levels like a peculiar diet, meditation, yoga, ample darkness, and harmala usage.

One interesting thing is that some mao-a inhibitors such as harmine seem to increase melatonin production (see links below). This reflects my personal impressions from harmala dosing. Pinoline is very similar to harmine, inhibits mao-a, and is a metabolite of melatonin (there is several others like it as well in the brain, but ask dreamer about that since he has the proper citations ). This is unsurprising given that the high dose effects of melatonin can include harmala-esque qualities.

Perhaps it's possible that by increasing our own melatonin through something like say meditation, the increase in pinoline that comes along with it could at times create a feedback loop via its own effect of increasing melatonin production, thus resulting in more pinoline, thus resulting in more melatonin, and so on.

Here is some links on meditation/yoga/fruit/harmine/MAO-a inhibitors increasing melatonin. Bancopuma actually wrote a good article on how we are chronically deficient in melatonin, mostly due to artificial lighting. I think diet is a massive factor as well and that there is good reasoning behind the idea that we're deficient - which is the main reason I take it. I will link his article to.

http://the-nexian.me/home/knowledge/63-the-light-that-burns-night-time-illumination-and-melatonin-suppression

Acute increases in night-time plasma melatonin levels following a period of meditation - PubMed - meditation
Effects of Hatha yoga and Omkar meditation on cardiorespiratory performance, psychologic profile, and melatonin secretion - PubMed - yoga
Serum melatonin levels and antioxidant capacities after consumption of pineapple, orange, or banana by healthy male volunteers - PubMed - fruit

maoi/harmine
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0303720782900880
Regulation of rat pineal melatonin synthesis: effect of monoamine oxidase inhibition - PubMed

These are from my bookmarks. I recently learned that access to full articles through my old university expires

universecannon: WOW. That was a great post. I'll have some reading ahead of me... and to your question. No I have not seen any data to indicate that it would have a rebound effect. Just anecdotal evidence from people like my friend, and assumptions I would make based on how most/typical neurotransmitter systems work.

In any event thanks for the fantastic post!


Also Dream thanks for adding your reference in as well.