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I saw friend turn into Satan on DMT

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Interesting.

I do not believe that I have a mind.

The issue with the location of the mind (where is it and when?) makes it seem pretty clear to me that it is a concept that does not exist as a thing separate from the function of a brain.

Mind seems like an abstract and primitive concept to me, but I am not particularly intelligent, I just happen to read a lot.
 
8-Serpent-Wind said:
Interesting.

I do not believe that I have a mind.

The issue with the location of the mind (where is it and when?) makes it seem pretty clear to me that it is a concept that does not exist as a thing separate from the function of a brain.

Mind seems like an abstract and primitive concept to me, but I am not particularly intelligent, I just happen to read a lot.
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For you, in your perspective, does something ontologically need to be extant physically to be said to exist?

I ask because it seems that while we focus a great deal on physical and material reality, we operate a great deal more from conceptual spheres (such as mathematics, which is itself abstract, but with many physical and material applications)that directly impact our realities, in my observation. The way these concepts drive us and move us in our existence substantiates their existence.

Can it still exist, even if it's a byproduct of another process?

Is the mind perhaps on a different tier or level of existence than say the brain? Or even math for that matter?

Would you say math exists?

You may be interested in Descarte, a rationalist skeptic. Through a systematic process of bringing everything around him into question and doubt, he finally arrived solely at his own mind. Paradoxically, through the act of trying to bring into doubt and question the existence of his own mind, he affirmed said existence; it's a thing that has to exist in order to even attempt to deny itself. He was already able to see how "he could be wrong" about everything in his physical reality, so that includes the existence of his own brain. But the faculty that allowed him to have this whole experience is what one calls the mind; the sets of complex internal processes, complete with traits such as self augmentation through self-awareness, complex abstractions, etc. It was just hard to really say where the mind came from is the downside, and there's nothing to be said about the "external reality" through this process either.

This is where solipsism comes from: the one thing that any one individual can be certain of is the existence of their own mind. To be clear, that's not to say that that is the only thing that exists; far from it. It's specifically an epistemological observation about what one undoubtedly knows.

Just sharing ideas :)

One love
 
Voidmatrix said:
For you, in your perspective, does something ontologically need to be extant physically to be said to exist?
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My ontology considers Extant to mean Existing, yes. Otherwise a thing does not exist as a thing, and existence of a concept is an abstraction and not the same as a thing being real.

Would you say math exists?
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No. Numbers are a concept we apply to nature, projecting them. Math is very useful but it has an arbitrary aspect to it. We use it in regard to things that exist. Counting apples for example, apples exist but the apple math does not. In fact we can use different numerical systems (not just a 10 based system) to perform mathematical functions because math is an abstraction and not a thing by itself.
You may be interested in Descarte,
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I make use of some of his work actually, mathematical work at that, in the representation of my cosmology.

One of the things about me is that many of my opinions are my own and are not those I have obtained from others and just agreed with, though I do have things I agree with. I've thrown the curve of an 4000 level Phil class or two though and have been invited to attend them by teachers in the past. I am by no means a student of philosophy per say, but I still read Plato and a few others because I enjoy them.

I do not consider myself a skeptic nor a rationalist. I rather dislike skeptics and I have my doubts that any human can be a successful rationalist. Maybe that is just being skeptical and skepticism and being rational about rationalism, but I am not smart enough to know.


Just sharing ideas :)
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It's cool. Not many people I know use the word Ontologically in a sentence and I find it nice that you are well versed in Philosophy and some aspects of Anthropology if I am not mistaken, given the content of some of your posts, though where the line between philosophy and anthropology is... I'll never know.

I really like the word Dialetheia.
 
I feel like I may have contributed in derailing this post, so this will likely be my last response :D

But thank you. My degree is in philosophy and it's a continued topic of study with particular focus on the subtopics of epistemology, philosophy of mind, logic/math, and ethics.

I'll leave you with a few bits to mull over.

I suppose now, it's best to ask how do you define real and/or reality? For how can one interact with and apply something that is not real (such as math)? Is a concept not a thing?

And I respect your position and autodidactic style.

Relative to skepticism, I highly recommend you check this thread out that I'm working on.

And thank you again. I'm kind of all over the place :lol:

One love
 
Voidmatrix said:
I feel like I may have contributed in derailing this post, so this will likely be my last response :D
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I don't mind if the last few post exchanges between us are extracted and or moved, or continued elsewhere.

If you like you can start a thread for it beginning with the last question(s) you asked me about defining reality and I will answer it there.

:thumb_up:
 
Thats the thing though if she wasn't a demon whyd she try attack me & instead of being angry or scared she tried getting me to come back, and still hasn't mentioned anything about it..
Weird though mentally I believe I'm quite grounded in reality (well was atleast) and had never thought or heard of demonic trips or read into it nor been religious it was literally the last thing on my mind. Fyi I don't plan on doing it again, not for a very long time and next time would be alone and an outdoor totally different environment.
 
Maybe she was scared and/or angry.

Your post mentions that you blocked her.
Did you ever talk to her to hear her side of the story?
If you want to know why she did what she did, shes the only one that can answer that.
 
Foster94 said:
Thats the thing though if she wasn't a demon whyd she try attack me & instead of being angry or scared she tried getting me to come back, and still hasn't mentioned anything about it..
Weird though mentally I believe I'm quite grounded in reality (well was atleast) and had never thought or heard of demonic trips or read into it nor been religious it was literally the last thing on my mind. Fyi I don't plan on doing it again, not for a very long time and next time would be alone and an outdoor totally different environment.
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Maybe she didn't realy attack you.

Maybe you acted in such a way that she felt threatened. The fact that she locked herself up makes it seem as if maybe she was at least as scared as you was.

In all honesty, locking herself up in the bathroom doesn't realy sound to me like something a demonic creature out to get you, would do.
 
She definitely 100% FOR SURE is NOT a demon, she's a human being with feelings and thoughts and you could of traumatized her. The whole experience including having to interact with the police may of been a seriously traumatic event in her life and you should be either checking up on her or apologizing and then leaving her alone.
I'm sorry mate but I really dont feel bad for you here, I feel bad for her, and I really dont appreciate you continuing to try and defend your actions/delusions that could of caused real harm to someone.

She was probably trying to get you to come back because she was trying to be a good trip sitter and trying to get you back to safety and privacy, exactly what she should of done as a sitter.

Some people call these experiences "hyperslaps" and it seems that instead of taking it in stride and reflecting you were spun right around and are still searching for an excuse for your embarrassing and toxic behavior. I dont usually drag on people because of their actions on psychedelics because they're intoxicated but I do take in to account their response to their behavior when they're back and sober. Usually people are apologetic and validly ashamed when they act in a harmful, toxic, or violent way during a trip. You on the other hand are still referring to a person kind enough to trip sit you a "demon"
Its not cool mate...

(EDIT/NOTE TO MODS: I apolagize if my tone is too harsh or not in line with the attitude of this site. I realize I'm new here and still a guest, this has just hit me in a slightly sore area. I 100% mean what I say but if im being too aggro please let me know.)
 
Ashtray770 said:
She definitely 100% FOR SURE is NOT a demon, she's a human being with feelings and thoughts and you could of traumatized her. The whole experience including having to interact with the police may of been a seriously traumatic event in her life and you should be either checking up on her or apologizing and then leaving her alone.
I'm sorry mate but I really dont feel bad for you here, I feel bad for her, and I really dont appreciate you continuing to try and defend your actions/delusions that could of caused real harm to someone.

She was probably trying to get you to come back because she was trying to be a good trip sitter and trying to get you back to safety and privacy, exactly what she should of done as a sitter.

Some people call these experiences "hyperslaps" and it seems that instead of taking it in stride and reflecting you were spun right around and are still searching for an excuse for your embarrassing and toxic behavior. I dont usually drag on people because of their actions on psychedelics because they're intoxicated but I do take in to account their response to their behavior when they're back and sober. Usually people are apologetic and validly ashamed when they act in a harmful, toxic, or violent way during a trip. You on the other hand are still referring to a person kind enough to trip sit you a "demon"
Its not cool mate...

(EDIT/NOTE TO MODS: I apolagize if my tone is too harsh or not in line with the attitude of this site. I realize I'm new here and still a guest, this has just hit me in a slightly sore area. I 100% mean what I say but if im being too aggro please let me know.)
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It's difficult to say what's the right thing to do here.

There are very obviously signs here of a psychotic condition of some sort. Now psychoses come in all sorts, and some are very severe, like in cases of schizophrenia. Others are mild, though a mild psychosis is still a very serious condition that can easily ruin lives.

I have seen quite a few cases here, like these. Every now and then, someone comes along who claims to be jesus, god, abducted by aliens, or haunted by demonic entities.

In almost all of these cases, it is no use talking to these people. The delusion has become an idee fixe. It is persistent.

It's exactly like an obsessive stalker who keeps believing that the object of his obsession loves him, even though she is happily married for years, has filed a restraining order several times and repeatedly stated in very harsh words that she does not want to have anything to do with him, ever again.

There often is no way to get through to these people. And yes, we should always try. But don't expect it to make any difference.
 
The "I went to the shed to fetch a hammer" is a major red flag, above and beyond calling the police while tripping. I suggest getting actual psychiatric help. This could so easily have gone way further south.

Foster94, you ought to avoid using any further psychedelic substances, probably anything stronger than lemon juice, at all costs. It looks to me as though there are pressing psychosocial issues that you must address, probably at length. Intuition suggests to me that you take a good look at your diet and healthy nutrition - how does that ring with you?
 
downwardsfromzero said:
The "I went to the shed to fetch a hammer" is a major red flag, above and beyond calling the police while tripping. I suggest getting actual psychiatric help. This could so easily have gone way further south.

Foster94, you ought to avoid using any further psychedelic substances, probably anything stronger than lemon juice, at all costs. It looks to me as though there are pressing psychosocial issues that you must address, probably at length. Intuition suggests to me that you take a good look at your diet and healthy nutrition - how does that ring with you?
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I agree with completely. I'd also highly suggest seeing a professional/doctor and focusing on diet after seeing a psychiatrist. While obviously diet is important, like mentioned, going to grab a hammer is imo not just a red flag, but extreamly concerning. This situation could of ended with this poor person being significantly injured or even killed by OP.

I just want to stress that this situation is not typical or normal behavior from someone on psychedelics. This is indicative of a deeper problem and I think OPs potential for violence extends into their sober life as well. Again, OP, I'm not trying to drag you or just be a dick to be a dick, but I really hope you'll take the advice here, recognize how serious your behavior was, and get some help friend. Stay away from psychedelics (and probably young women) until you've spent a significant amount of time unpacking your toxic and violent behavior with a doctor.
 
dragonrider said:
Ashtray770 said:
She definitely 100% FOR SURE is NOT a demon, she's a human being with feelings and thoughts and you could of traumatized her. The whole experience including having to interact with the police may of been a seriously traumatic event in her life and you should be either checking up on her or apologizing and then leaving her alone.
I'm sorry mate but I really dont feel bad for you here, I feel bad for her, and I really dont appreciate you continuing to try and defend your actions/delusions that could of caused real harm to someone.

She was probably trying to get you to come back because she was trying to be a good trip sitter and trying to get you back to safety and privacy, exactly what she should of done as a sitter.

Some people call these experiences "hyperslaps" and it seems that instead of taking it in stride and reflecting you were spun right around and are still searching for an excuse for your embarrassing and toxic behavior. I dont usually drag on people because of their actions on psychedelics because they're intoxicated but I do take in to account their response to their behavior when they're back and sober. Usually people are apologetic and validly ashamed when they act in a harmful, toxic, or violent way during a trip. You on the other hand are still referring to a person kind enough to trip sit you a "demon"
Its not cool mate...

(EDIT/NOTE TO MODS: I apolagize if my tone is too harsh or not in line with the attitude of this site. I realize I'm new here and still a guest, this has just hit me in a slightly sore area. I 100% mean what I say but if im being too aggro please let me know.)
Click to expand...
It's difficult to say what's the right thing to do here.

There are very obviously signs here of a psychotic condition of some sort. Now psychoses come in all sorts, and some are very severe, like in cases of schizophrenia. Others are mild, though a mild psychosis is still a very serious condition that can easily ruin lives.

I have seen quite a few cases here, like these. Every now and then, someone comes along who claims to be jesus, god, abducted by aliens, or haunted by demonic entities.

In almost all of these cases, it is no use talking to these people. The delusion has become an idee fixe. It is persistent.

It's exactly like an obsessive stalker who keeps believing that the object of his obsession loves him, even though she is happily married for years, has filed a restraining order several times and repeatedly stated in very harsh words that she does not want to have anything to do with him, ever again.

There often is no way to get through to these people. And yes, we should always try. But don't expect it to make any difference.
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I also hear this point, and I really hope in this situation and others we can encourage the person to do the right thing and get some help, but I agree that it's often futile. They have to make that choice on their own.
 
i arrived to the conversation too late to respond to everything i would like to, but i would like to highlight that just because something looks "evil" doesn't mean it is. i think that is particularly important to remember when exploring alien realms because everything looks so.. alien.
if the effects of the trip are causing problems in your day to day life i would definitely have to say quit while you are ahead. the reasons for such experiences are open to debate, but it's safe to say there are other things that need to be worked out before exploring this far.
 
Sorry if initial reaction was harsh and kinda set the tone for the following replies.

Some trips can be very harrowing and these substances have potential to reprogram the brain. Some reprogrammings can be traumatic and take considerable time to heal.

I am no exclusion to this, so I speak from my own experience. I abstain from psychedelics these days, if you don't count daily cannabis use, for multiple reasons. One of them is that I recognize chance of going bonkers for good and although it's slim, I'd rather not risk anymore, because I've got my answers and my quest.

So I again advise to stay away from mind altering substances for a while. After such trips even weed can be anxiety inducing so chill and try talking it out with yor friend. If you doubt that she is satan, meet her in the church :twisted:
 
Exitwound said:
Sorry if initial reaction was harsh and kinda set the tone for the following replies.

Some trips can be very harrowing and these substances have potential to reprogram the brain. Some reprogrammings can be traumatic and take considerable time to heal.

I am no exclusion to this, so I speak from my own experience. I abstain from psychedelics these days, if you don't count daily cannabis use, for multiple reasons. One of them is that I recognize chance of going bonkers for good and although it's slim, I'd rather not risk anymore, because I've got my answers and my quest.

So I again advise to stay away from mind altering substances for a while. After such trips even weed can be anxiety inducing so chill and try talking it out with yor friend. If you doubt that she is satan, meet her in the church :twisted:
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Imo the tone is quite forgiving. Dude grabbed a hammer to potentially bash a young women's face in, leading her to hide in a bathroom. That's pretty bad lol.
 
Trips taking a sinister turn, seeing and feeling startling things, paranoia and the fight or flight response being activated are phenomena with which most of us are familiar. I cut my psychedelic teeth riding out LSD doses in questionable settings, and once was lucky to have a friend whisper "chill man, it's just the acid" when I was startled and jumped out of my chair to flee a class.

People's faces can twist up into grotesque masks while tripping. We even used to call it "Seeing people turn into witches". I'm glad for me it was always a momentary thing, but of course DMT can be orders of magnitude more intense.

But yeah, Foster94 the real red flag is that when your fight or flight response was triggered you did both. Also, since the incident you are still wondering what was and wasn't "real".

Probably shouldn't do any more DMT.
 
Make that: no psychedelic substances, including cannabis, ever again.

We don't want you to murder someone you think is a demon, and in case that is not convincing for you because you still believe in demons....you don't want to go to prison.

So stay sober. And go see a shrink if you keep experiencing stuff like this.
 
dragonrider said:
Make that: no psychedelic substances, including cannabis, ever again.

We don't want you to murder someone you think is a demon, and in case that is not convincing for you because you still believe in demons....you don't want to go to prison.

So stay sober. And go see a shrink if you keep experiencing stuff like this.
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What they said ^^^^
 
Exitwound said:
chill and try talking it out with yor friend. If you doubt that she is satan, meet her in the church :twisted:
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this feels like the best step 1 to me. i would suggest making extra effort to get in touch with this friend and discuss what happened. hopefully a conversation will help you see that she is the same person she always was and what you saw was a projection (which i believe you misunderstood).
 
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