Id/Superego Death

[lorentz5]

So, I hear about ego death all the time here, but what about superego or id death?

Say you experience "ego death." Then what happens to your id and superego, if they have nothing to act on?

Do you think it would be possible to have strictly a superego death (succumbing to primal desires) or an id death (striving to ideals)?

 

[burnt]

I think freud was largely wrong about most of that stuff.

 

[lorentz5]

I think freud was largely wrong about most of that stuff.

then why do we still use the term "ego" death in reference to some peoples' experiences on DMT? Why not call it "death of self" or a different term unrelated to Freud?

 

[Jumiem]

If the shoe fits.

 

[Sublime]

I think it's more of a realization or transcendence, not death. The aspect of what we call the ego or self may or may not even exist. I have yet to experience this, so I will find out myself.

 

[Morphing Interstices]

I think freud was largely wrong about most of that stuff.

then why do we still use the term "ego" death in reference to some peoples' experiences on DMT? Why not call it "death of self" or a different term unrelated to Freud?

The psychoanlytic term 'ego' has been applied to translations of terms in Indian and Tibetan spiritual texts from the end of the nineteenth century onwards. When people use of the term 'ego' in psychedelic circles they are probably often assuming something more like a Buddhist and Hindu conception of individual selfhood, rather than a psychoanalytic one in relation to Id and Superego. Jungian psychoanalysis synthesises those different definitions and has had a strong influence in psychedelic scholarship. You might find Freud useful to read for thinking about these things, but most likely he will just strike you as very much of his time and not really that applicable to yours.

 

[endlessness]

ego = me, or I, in latin, AFAIK.. When one uses this term, one doesnt necessarily need to be mentioning it inside the refference framework of psychonalysis (and I would say that most times in the psychedelic community one is NOT speaking in terms of psychoanalytic jargon). It is a word that was used way before Freud by different people of different orientations in different contexts...

In fact, even when talking about psychoanalysis, using the word "Ego" is a translation choice.. Freud actually just used the word 'Ich' in german, which can be translated more directly as "I"...

In any case I think we could discuss, if thats what you desire, inside a psychoanalytical vision, what would happen with those 2 terms you described.. Though I will sleep soon so this will have to wait for some other time..

Just on a quick note, the 'Id' is like the desires, the primitive impulses, so one could argument that it is liberated/dealt with/expressed/observed, and not killed/disabled/taken away, during a psychedelic peak experience..

I find Freud's work very interesting but theres a LOT I dont agree with, so I definitely dont follow his theories in my world view, but I do think its interesting to discuss... So, I come back some other time to this

 

[ismokecrystals]

When I last experienced "ego death" I still retained a sense of "I" However I had become God/omnipotent- I was able to smell/taste/feel/see/touch anything I thought of. This all took place in a land of 20ft tall rainbow colored sour diesel plants and fractals/religious symbols everywhere I looked.

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

There are a lot of spiritual authors who use the word "ego," and I am not sure if all of them had Freud in mind when writing.

In any case, the term is more to refer to the sense of boundary between localized points of consciousness (monads?!) and the universe. If water had an ego, every drop would think itself separate from the ocean. The death of the ego, then, is the dissolution of that barrier between self and universe.

Ego is also a very important thing, and it's not something you want to STAY dead--it also serves as an alarm system, to defend that boundary and protect the unique expression of divine consciousness that is "you." The problems we see today all come from the ego taking the steering wheel, rather than chilling out in the passenger seat, and knowing when to say, "Hey! Look out!"

Trust is medicine... knowing when to surrender... having faith in what is beyond the ego boundary...

And gratitude... thanking the ego when it speaks up, in feelings of defensiveness, honoring its purpose... without becoming paranoid.

Terrorism is the perfect example of a product of ego run amok at a collective national level. (Without delving too deeply into left brain psychology ), the ego's purpose is to defend a unique identity and protect. But when defensiveness and fear take over, paranoid delusions and a lot of tragic, harmful, and unnecessary actions result.

The experience of ego death is so profoundly healing because it reaffirms the source of all life (including the unique existence defined by ego). It gives ego perspective. Ego needs perspective to function productively--otherwise it becomes destructive.

My rambles about ego...

I would have to interpret a hypothetical death of the superego as a death of the greater spiritual whole, beyond ego--which could mean a collapse of the entire universe itself, and also nothing at all, because in ego death, one realizes, there is no such thing as death, just dissolution and expansion. That could be borderline not making sense, though.

 

[Morphing Interstices]

I get a powerful feeling in every DMT trip that the entities and places I experience are also me and I am them. But in some I can't even say that 'I' experience anything, because the sense of selfhood is so radically dissolved into the being of the DMT world that there no way to distinguish 'it' from 'me'. Is this 'ego' death? If you like.... But if you think of ego in psychoanalytic terms then that will be too narrow since the psychoanalytic Ich is not the entirety of the self, and that entirety is certainly what seems to merge into the DMT world.

 

[elphologist1]

If water had an ego, every drop would think itself separate from the ocean. The death of the ego, then, is the dissolution of that barrier between self and universe.

At a young enough age, a small child (at least according to child psychologists) does not differentiate himself or herself from the rest of the world. Very young children use the word "me", not I, as in "Me wants...." or even "Johnny wants....". Their realization that they are separate from the rest of the world is supposed to correlate with the beginning use of the word "I". But I don't know if I believe this.

I do believe, however, that at a young enough age a child has not differentiated himself or herself from the surrounding universe, and that people who experience ego loss under the influence of psychedelics likely experience a similar state.

elphologist

 

[Morphing Interstices]

I agree. In one trip I actually found myself in a cradle nursed by a mother goddess and shown an array of colourful jostling toys as she sang a lullaby about taking those toys back out into the world and laughed at me every time I asked about one in particular - 'what is inside it, what can it do?' and she would shugg her shoulder and tell me there is only way to find out, I have to play with it. As I was coming out of the dmt world I realised i was looking at a bookshelf in my loungeroom and that these were the toys she had shown me.

But actually forgetting to look from the perspective of our ego-self probably happens more often than we think in life. Its just that we are not in a position to notice when it happens because the 'I' that would normally notice such things is suspended....Unless you have a regular meditation kind of practice in which you inhabit a different perspective daily and become comfortable within it, your suspended ego states will pass largely unrecognised.

 

[lorentz5]

When I last experienced "ego death" I still retained a sense of "I" However I had become God/omnipotent- I was able to smell/taste/feel/see/touch anything I thought of. This all took place in a land of 20ft tall rainbow colored sour diesel plants and fractals/religious symbols everywhere I looked.

Wow, that sounds amazing.

If water had an ego, every drop would think itself separate from the ocean. The death of the ego, then, is the dissolution of that barrier between self and universe.

Beautifully said. SWIM has never had a distinct ego death but his experience on lsd resembled something similar to what you described.

At a young enough age, a small child (at least according to child psychologists) does not differentiate himself or herself from the rest of the world. Very young children use the word "me", not I, as in "Me wants...." or even "Johnny wants...."

Yes, that phenomenon is called egocentricism I believe.

I may be getting confused, but I believe elphologist1 is contradicting ms_manic_minxx:

If

The death of the ego, then, is the dissolution of that barrier between self and universe.

Then

Ego death would be the opposite of egocentricism (i.e. "the incomplete differentiation of the self and the world [wiki]"

Therefore,

people who experience ego loss under the influence of psychedelics likely experience a similar state.

would not be true because these people are experiencing "ego death" not egocentricism (which defined by you is a state at which

a child has not differentiated himself or herself from the surrounding universe

 

[ohayoco]

at a young enough age a child has not differentiated himself or herself from the surrounding universe, and that people who experience ego loss under the influence of psychedelics likely experience a similar state.

This is my understanding of 'ego death' too.