Identity and Difference

[original_sessions]

I was watching an Alan Watts video, and it inspired me to write the following piece, which I have since decided to share. Comments and criticisms are welcome.

. . .

Man is the mirror nature uses to watch itself with. Nature is also the mirror of man. Still, it is an impartial place. The planet is unconcerned with the meanings and prejudices of man. The Earth cannot make distinctions, because all distinctions are made by man. For man labels things with his language. And all language is learned. And that same language is used to both interpret and construct cultural meanings and values and ideologies.

We are no different than anything else around us. Man is the dirt, the grass, the deer, or whatever other matter or non-tangible items his energy transfers into. We are the weeds, the waterfall, and the spider’s web. The whole process of categorizing things into classes is an end result of an inability to see beyond symbols—to see beyond living a symbolic life. And this, of course, is difficult since it is language itself that gives rise to consciousness. And while we can use language (specifically the language of logic) to construct technologies and interpret the universe, always does the planet remain an impartial place.

Meaning is a matter of a prejudiced mind. And so what do our prejudiced minds do to people? Well, we end up dividing everything by their differences, creating illusory identities, categories, and classes, which are then sorted in a hierarchical system (from top to bottom). And the so-called “good” things are put above, while the so-called “bad” are put below. And we outcast the “bad” and reward the “good”, teaching others to assimilate to the dominant ideals and top part of this hierarchical power pyramid. And all of this power, of course, is oppressive.

In not making distinctions, however, nothing is sorted or given a distinct identity. Everything rests along an equal plane. And it is this plane that is the point and place of all peace. For, again, I say, we are no more different than the dirt. For, from out the dirt, the food we eat, in the garden, grows. And when a man dies, he becomes the dirt. There is no difference or distinction. There are no opposites like “good” or “bad”. For what is good or bad varies by what we believe—what is constructed through culture. That is to say, they are all imaginings of the human mind.

I say, that until we can see the universal similarities that all things share, we will never find peace. We will remain living in a prejudiced power system of oppressed people that believe in identity through difference, and who place more significance in their culturally constructed symbols, and linguistic signs, than in the universal silence of space. For there really is nothing for us to know, other than the fact that we are everything around us. Yes, we are everything around us. For what are we but conscious forms of energy, undergoing cyclic change during the deceiving act of observation? And while we can use some of these observations to construct cities, and other technologies, what is the point if all of these things occur in a power system where people are oppressed?

“But, oh,” some say. “What about evolution? What of nature’s own point of progress?” And to this, I say, that the drive toward progress, scientifically or otherwise, is just another ideal constructed through culture. Peace knows no progress. And while some may say evolution is a form of progress, this is simply a matter of perspective, and, ultimately, a falsehood. For to believe evolution is a form of progress is to say people are more important (or greater, or higher) than anything else on this planet. In other words, it is seeing ourselves as being separate from what surrounds us (i.e, seeing ourselves at the top of a hierarchical power pyramid). And, as we have already discussed, to see things as being separate is to become lost in the prejudice of language.

If we are to understand anything, we must look to how the world impartially operates. For no matter our rank in such a hierarchical, oppressive system, we will all decay when we die. All men, after all, are equal, and accepted, in the eyes of the earth. To say, again, simply, when we die, we are dirt—the same as anything else that decays. The world feeds upon each other’s flesh. And no amount of belief will change this.

 

[Pan Man]

Great read I agree with pretty much everything you said. You wrote through a very conflictive point of view and poetically ended with "The world feeds upon each other’s flesh."

I find it tough to not see evolution as progress. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things where the alpha is the omega and in due "time" a supernova wipes out the earth, the importance of the man's evolution and culture bares no relevance. Maybe then you can laugh evolution off as not being progressive or futile. However, even that does not make the idea a falsehood. It is only through perspective that one sees evolution hierarchically and places importance on matter and material. Evolution is method of the mirror. Culture is the tool. Man and the Planet are equally impartial. Cultural evolution is the source of material tools to enhance the mirror's experience, accomplished progressively. I understand the destruction of this culture's progression, but it still boils down to a matter of perspective. Really what I'm trying to say is that it's better to view the enigma as beauty.

 

[Jin]

amazing read , just brilliant

 

[Non Dua Natura]

Thanks to Jin for bumping this, it's a nice read. If you don't mind, I'd like to offer a few different views on certain parts of your essay and perhaps open up the discussion again.

The first thing I'd point out is this: "language itself that gives rise to consciousness".

If you look directly at your own bare sensate experience, you will see that language is dependent upon consciousness for it's perception to occur. Language doesn't give rise to consciousness, it allows us to communicate our own experience of consciousness as it happens, but it's something which has been constructed by our species to facilitate this process; in and of itself, language has no inherent value or independent existence.

Man is the mirror nature uses to watch itself with. Nature is also the mirror of man. Still, it is an impartial place. The planet is unconcerned with the meanings and prejudices of man. The Earth cannot make distinctions, because all distinctions are made by man. For man labels things with his language. And all language is learned. And that same language is used to both interpret and construct cultural meanings and values and ideologies.

My experience so far seems to indicates that there is no distinction between man and nature, the mirror is merely a thought which prevents us from fully and directly experiencing 'union' with what already 'is'. Your points about how all distinctions are made by man is very insightful and I like the way you've phrased it.

I mentioned before that language is inherently empty of meaning in and of itself, and so your point about interpretation and cultural meaning is well made. Try looking at how these things, values and meaning etc, only occur as mental objects arising as consciousness itself; mental consciousness is the result of the 'mind' making contact with a mental object, just as visual-consciousness occurs due to a visual object making contact with the eye as light, form and colour. See how, on closer inspection, there is no experiential distinction between seeing, hearing, or any of the other senses as they happen. It's only when the mind parses that pure consciousness into the six streams of sense-consciousness that a distinction is created. It happens very, very, very quickly but it's possible to experience this directly and validate what I've said for yourself.

Before I go on, let me say that nothing I write about should be taken as fact or believed without first experiencing, or maybe even not experiencing at all, it for yourself. What I write about is based on my own practice and experience here, nothing authoritative. As a friend of mine puts it, just a casual sharing.

We are no different than anything else around us. Man is the dirt, the grass, the deer, or whatever other matter or non-tangible items his energy transfers into. We are the weeds, the waterfall, and the spider’s web. The whole process of categorizing things into classes is an end result of an inability to see beyond symbols—to see beyond living a symbolic life. And this, of course, is difficult since it is language itself that gives rise to consciousness. And while we can use language (specifically the language of logic) to construct technologies and interpret the universe, always does the planet remain an impartial place.

Even the most staunch of materialists couldn't disagree that we, as carbon-based lifeforms, are literally no different, at least at this level, from anything else in the universe. It's humbling and inspiring to recognize that literal oneness at a deep, deep level, it has led me to a far more ecological and environmentally friendly view but, ultimately, I understand that even this is only a more skilful way of navigating in this beautifully chaotic 'thing' called life.

What you talk about here (in italic) is what I was getting at by saying that language doesn't cause consciousness, language depends upon consciousness. There is bare awareness which exists as every sensation you can possibly experience, consciousness is but one facet of this and, as you venture further into the meditative game, vipassana in specific, it becomes clear that even consciousness cannot be said to be that which experiences; all that can be found is this interdependent arising of luminous, self-liberating sensations appearing and vanishing like bubbles floating in a clear sky.

The planet remains impartial as it does not have the faculties of mind and emotion/feeling as we do through which it could form beliefs and take sides; the ground of consciousness is ethically neutral.

Meaning is a matter of a prejudiced mind. And so what do our prejudiced minds do to people? Well, we end up dividing everything by their differences, creating illusory identities, categories, and classes, which are then sorted in a hierarchical system (from top to bottom). And the so-called “good” things are put above, while the so-called “bad” are put below. And we outcast the “bad” and reward the “good”, teaching others to assimilate to the dominant ideals and top part of this hierarchical power pyramid. And all of this power, of course, is oppressive.

The mind itself is not the problem, it's the conditioning our mental processes have been subjected to through everything from genetics to what you see on television. The mind is neither good nor bad, these are relative mental concepts which require the other to exist when, in their actual experiencing as mental and physical sensate patterns, they contain neither quality until we perceive, (re)cognize, and develop either a pleasant, neutral, or unpleasant feelings about them based on previous/similar experience. I'm speaking purely in terms of bare perceptual processes here, not ethical or moral activities since that's a whole 'nutha ballgame.

In not making distinctions, however, nothing is sorted or given a distinct identity. Everything rests along an equal plane. And it is this plane that is the point and place of all peace. For, again, I say, we are no more different than the dirt. For, from out the dirt, the food we eat, in the garden, grows. And when a man dies, he becomes the dirt. There is no difference or distinction. There are no opposites like “good” or “bad”. For what is good or bad varies by what we believe—what is constructed through culture. That is to say, they are all imaginings of the human mind.

There are ways to go about experiencing that "point and place of all peace", it's not something that only monks, magicians or specially trained or gifted people can experience and is well worth the (paradoxical) effort required. To understand that all of these things are "imaginings of the human mind" is a profound realization and its continual recognition is what dismantles those fabrications. Nice one!

I hope I'm not coming off as preachy or all mystical with these replies, I found your post interesting and enjoy talking about these things so I hope you'll take my elongated replies in good humour. When it comes to awakening, I take a very down-to-earth and practical approach but, unfortunately, sometimes the metaphors can get a bit OTT and sound silly.

I say, that until we can see the universal similarities that all things share, we will never find peace. We will remain living in a prejudiced power system of oppressed people that believe in identity through difference, and who place more significance in their culturally constructed symbols, and linguistic signs, than in the universal silence of space. For there really is nothing for us to know, other than the fact that we are everything around us. Yes, we are everything around us. For what are we but conscious forms of energy, undergoing cyclic change during the deceiving act of observation? And while we can use some of these observations to construct cities, and other technologies, what is the point if all of these things occur in a power system where people are oppressed?

Don't become ignorant of your own beliefs and prejudices, they can become incredibly subtle the further you go. Any and all beliefs are hiding places for the "I", they are part of what gives rise to the sense of identity at a deep level.

Taking it to another level, consider more thoroughly the idea that you as an identity, as a personality or sense of being in any way, exist as anything other than, like all things, a mental fabrication; "I" can only be found in a thought, "I" am unlocatable in space and time; a dependently arising mental object which happens and then is gone without a trace.

“But, oh,” some say. “What about evolution? What of nature’s own point of progress?” And to this, I say, that the drive toward progress, scientifically or otherwise, is just another ideal constructed through culture. Peace knows no progress. And while some may say evolution is a form of progress, this is simply a matter of perspective, and, ultimately, a falsehood. For to believe evolution is a form of progress is to say people are more important (or greater, or higher) than anything else on this planet. In other words, it is seeing ourselves as being separate from what surrounds us (i.e, seeing ourselves at the top of a hierarchical power pyramid). And, as we have already discussed, to see things as being separate is to become lost in the prejudice of language.

I like the way you put this and agree to an extent, although my (very minor) objections may be purely down to the way I'm reading what you've written. The joys of forum communication...:lol:

Consider this: On observing our experience, we seem to find change as the only constant. Yet the idea of change itself implies that there is something which is unchanging, something stable from which this initial state of change occurred; change as a concept requires stability as it's dualistic counterpart to exist against. Change is imputation.

If we are to understand anything, we must look to how the world impartially operates. For no matter our rank in such a hierarchical, oppressive system, we will all decay when we die. All men, after all, are equal, and accepted, in the eyes of the earth. To say, again, simply, when we die, we are dirt—the same as anything else that decays. The world feeds upon each other’s flesh. And no amount of belief will change this.

The nature of reality is such that our beliefs influence our perceptions, the trick is to learn how to play with beliefs by dismantling them, putting them back together and eventually seeing how arbitrary they actually are. Empirically test beliefs and see how the affect your experience, it's a project that needs work to get the best out of but is worth it for the flexibility achieved through it. When we learn that our beliefs are ultimately no more than second-hand wisdom and conditioning, we can begin the process of choosing a more positive, loving, fun and compassionate reality to live in and then work towards making it a reality.

We can only change now, there is no before or after outwith mental fabrication and so we need to start with ourselves. In changing our own ways of living in the world and interacting skilfully with our fellow beings, we can contribute, however small it may be, to the betterment and freedom of all sentient beings. Being happy isn't a crime and we don't need to feel guilty for all the woes of the world, some things we just can't change and so we focus on the things we can change. Learning to enjoy life as it happens is one of the greatest meditative practices around, just the simple moment-by-moment attentiveness of what's happening right here and now, at the sense doors and nothing more complex than that. There's an incredible freedom in this which is beyond description, but I'm sure, given your insights in this post, that you've experienced it already and so have a point of reference with which to aim your intent.

Peace.

 

[Jin]

The first thing I'd point out is this: "language itself that gives rise to consciousness".

If you look directly at your own bare sensate experience, you will see that language is dependent upon consciousness for it's perception to occur. Language doesn't give rise to consciousness, it allows us to communicate our own experience of consciousness as it happens, but it's something which has been constructed by our species to facilitate this process; in and of itself, language has no inherent value or independent existence.

definetly i was also wanting to point this out , infact these days i have come to believe language is a barrier to total conscioussness , infact if i could forget language i would be able to experience more , since its very hard to think without language , have you also noticed that mostly all our thoughts are made up of language , infact without language there would be no thinking , just the direct experience

as once a great man said learn it and then unlearn it all , is language keeping us out of the moment ?? infact all of meditation , spirituality is about experiencing rather than thinking , thoughts are like a screen between us and the world most of the times , its as if we have been imprisoned in language , isn't freedom from language gonna cause Enligtenment , since to me the definition of being Enligtened means to be free of thoughts and free of language and experience life without a screen of thoughts

i can see the colour black without needing my mind to label it as the colour black yet my mind always labels everything , when it does not label i am in nirvana , going through life thinking most of the time is certainly a very silly way to live life , but then i have fallen from grace ,

is it possible all of us would stop thinking the moment we forget language ? is this what is required ? for even without language the eyes will see , the ears will hear , the tongue will still taste ,the nose will pick up scents , the skin will feel and we will experience

are we being cut off from the larger universal experience just because of language ?? is language confining us to the human experience ?

i know some of you might already have accuired this state of mind , i was there once , i trying to get back up there ,

 

[Non Dua Natura]

definetly i was also wanting to point this out , infact these days i have come to believe language is a barrier to total conscioussness , infact if i could forget language i would be able to experience more , since its very hard to think without language , have you also noticed that mostly all our thoughts are made up of language , infact without language there would be no thinking , just the direct experience

Thought is just the natural product of the human brain processing sensory information, and language is a tool which facilitates communication of those thoughts and other subjective experience. You don't need to drop language to experience more, bare sensate experience occurs prior to its linguistic expression so it's a matter of 'tuning in' to that instant when a sense object makes contact with its associated sense door, e.g. a visual object hits the eye which gives rise to seeing.

as once a great man said learn it and then unlearn it all , is language keeping us out of the moment ?? infact all of meditation , spirituality is about experiencing rather than thinking , thoughts are like a screen between us and the world most of the times , its as if we have been imprisoned in language , isn't freedom from language gonna cause Enligtenment , since to me the definition of being Enligtened means to be free of thoughts and free of language and experience life without a screen of thoughts

Freedom from language comes with the realization of its emptiness. When we see how language is simply a convenient system of labeling and how the words themselves are no more than symbolic representations of dynamic processes, it's possible to begin to really appreciate the beauty of it. There are no nouns in experience, only verbs; life is a constantly changing process and there is no such thing as stability, so the way to fully experience life is to embrace the transience, see how there is no "me" to be found in actuality and how clinging to such a falsehood leads to suffering.

To be enlightened doesn't mean you're free of thought, although there does come a point where discursive, or self-referential thought ceases. That's not to say that "thinking" entirely stops, it's the "thinker" itself which vanishes as its seen to be no more than mental imputation. When there is no thinker to be found in experience, thought is no longer something "I" do.

i can see the colour black without needing my mind to label it as the colour black yet my mind always labels everything , when it does not label i am in nirvana , going through life thinking most of the time is certainly a very silly way to live life , but then i have fallen from grace

Try to just recognize when thinking is occurring, notice how thought doesn't actually require someone to think it. Thoughts arise and pass without effort, try to experience this clearly and you'll be a step closer to awakening.

Thinking itself is not the problem, it's becoming absorbed in those thoughts and considering them to be anything more than mental phenomena. We give them power, emotionally invest ourselves in them but never realize that they're just bubble-like arisings, empty and inherently unsatisfactory. The idea that you, or anyone else, has "fallen from grace" is just a metaphor for the pre-programmed ignorance which clouds our vision. It's simply a matter of clear perception, recognition of the way things are and have always been.

is it possible all of us would stop thinking the moment we forget language ? is this what is required ? for even without language the eyes will see , the ears will hear , the tongue will still taste ,the nose will pick up scents , the skin will feel and we will experience

There's an excellent Buddhist sutta called the "Bahiya Sutta" which you might find helpful in understanding this a bit clearer.

are we being cut off from the larger universal experience just because of language ?? is language confining us to the human experience ?

No, language is a byproduct of human experience and only "confines" us as far as we allow it to. It's more subtle that this, but it's also far more simple than it seems to the conceptual mind.

i know some of you might already have accuired this state of mind , i was there once , i trying to get back up there ,

A few things to know about awakening:

- It's not a "state of mind".
- "I" don't 'get' there.
- There is no "where" to be, it's what already 'is' without conditions.

If you're genuinely interested in awakening you're welcome to drop me a PM or ask about it on here, I can point you to some good resources and, if you want, offer some practical advice based on my own experience so far.