If DMT would be a neurotransmitter.

[benzyme]

I could imagine that in a sense we're always under the influence of endogenous tryptamine psychedelic's, but just to such a limited degree that we normally don't notice it.

this sentence contradicts itself; to be under the influence of endogenous tryptamines means that subjective effects are present. given normal concentrations in serum, it just doesn't happen. depolarization signals are too weak, well below threshold levels, to get any sort of subjective effects; also consider that receptors bind serotonin more readily, given that it's a 'normal' neurotransmitter to the binding sites, present in much higher concentrations.
figuring that in with rapid metabolism of endogenous tryptamines by MAO, how can you be under the influence of something you can't perceive?

 

[burnt]

For me, the intruiging question remains: is it just coïncidence that activity of so many of the receptors DMT binds to, leads to psychedelic effects?

Remember that in vitro binding studies don't necessary demonstrate what receptor the compound typically interacts with in vivo.

 

[polytrip]

I could imagine that in a sense we're always under the influence of endogenous tryptamine psychedelic's, but just to such a limited degree that we normally don't notice it.

this sentence contradicts itself; to be under the influence of endogenous tryptamines means that subjective effects are present. given normal concentrations in serum, it just doesn't happen. depolarization signals are too weak, well below threshold levels, to get any sort of subjective effects; also consider that receptors bind serotonin more readily, given that it's a 'normal' neurotransmitter to the binding sites, present in much higher concentrations.
figuring that in with rapid metabolism of endogenous tryptamines by MAO, how can you be under the influence of something you can't perceive?

Well, if you drank half a glass of beer, wouldn't you technically speaking be under the influence of alcohol without nessecarily percieving this yourself?
I mean, i bet that if you let a test group of a hundred (average) people drink half a beer and you let them do reaction speed tests, you would see a difference with a controll group that didn't drink anything while all of those people themselves would not notice any difference at all with when they didn't drink anything.

 

[benzyme]

not a good analogy, because of course they would feel the effect of drinking a beverage vs. not drinking a beverage. However if the beverage contained ethanol vs. a non-alcoholic beverage, then we're getting into 'being under the influence' vs. not. it's relative to signal exceeding threshold at respective receptors to give an active effect.
endogenous psychedelic tryptamines are normally just too low in concentration to perceive an effect.
so, we're not 'always under the influence of endogenous psychedelic tryptamines'

 

[polytrip]

OK, we're getting lost here in definitions of the term 'being under the influence of'. What i mean with being under the influence of is simply that it has effects, whether these are noticeable or not.

So let's say that there are always psycho-active tryptamines in our blood...Well, that seems to be the case anyway. It could be in amounts below the threshold where we can notice their effects, but it would still have some effects.

So if there's always some DMT, MeO-DMT, bufotenine, etc, in our blood having some effects below the threshold where we can become aware of them, would that be just accidental or could it have a function like let's say, dreaming?

It would clearly be an evolutionary disadvantage if we'd be tripping balls all the time because of some coincidental by-product of all kinds of bodily processes.
But it would be from an evolutionary perspective be an advantage though, if we could incorporate the effects of that by-product into our normal way of functioning so that it would become an integrated part of our system...just like it's better for the economy to recycle used products.

But it's one of the following two anyway: either DMT plays an elementary part in our counsciousness and that's why it has such effects.
Or our counsciousness is structured in such a way that changing just a few little parameters in the processes that drive it, unfolds all it exists of to itself.

 

[benzyme]

it would likely lean towards the latter.
you obviously wouldn't notice anything if an active compound were present below threshold levels; so in this respect, how would it have any bearing on consciousness? i mean, you technically wouldn't be conscious of it. :?

dreaming is an altogether different event. the serotonin-signaling pathway is supposedly inactive during REM sleep, and 5-MeO-DMT, DMT, and bufotenine are all serotonin receptor ligands. sure, they may also bind other receptors (TAAR, sigma, etc.), but those arguably don't have an effect on consciousness while you're asleep.

what I can appreciate, as many others do, is that it's both fascinating and remarkable that these side-products of amino acid metabolism can give such profound effects when exceeding normal physiological levels.
asking 'what's the purpose of DMT' is like asking 'what's the purpose of life's experiences',
ultimately rhetorical and subject to subjective interpretation

 

[Virola78]

not that i'm aware of; hmm...so what is it, a pseudo-neurotransmitter? it would still be
a secondary messenger
yea, i forgot that neurotransmitters are packed into vesicles, which fuse with the presynaptic-membrane following Ca2+ influx.

if epinephrine is a hormone, that would make it a primary messenger (neurotransmitters are secondary messengers).

I think that it is most likely to act as a hormone. As you say, this would do it a "primary" messenger (message generator) rather than "second" messenger (message conveyor). But that's as far as it's endogenous role(s) and action goes.

Obviously, exogenously administered dmt reaches the synapses and binds to receptors as a "pseudo-neurotransmitter just as all the other psychotropic drugs.

huh?
i thought the neurotransmittor to be the primary messenger, forming an input to the post synaptic membrane, and the calcium and the release of hormones as secondary messengers (=result of the intracellular processing of the primary message.)

 

[benzyme]

*edit* sorry, was mistaken..
primary messengers are hormones and neurotransmitters
secondary messengers are Ca2+, cAMP, cGMP, IP3, and Diacylglycerol

(had to consult the neuro text)

 

[polytrip]

it would likely lean towards the latter.
you obviously wouldn't notice anything if an active compound were present below threshold levels; so in this respect, how would it have any bearing on consciousness? i mean, you technically wouldn't be conscious of it. :?

I don't agree with that logic. If you're in the supermarket deciding wich brand of potato chips to buy, you'll obviously gonna choose counsciously for the brand wich features a naked girl in it's TV commercials without knowing or even bothering why you'd suddenly feel that this brand is worth paying the extra 50 cents for.

But back to the DMT. I'm not asking what the function of DMT is.
I'm intrigued by a phenomenon many people also seem to have experienced on psychedelic's such as DMT, and that is a feeling of familiarity with it, even when it's the first time you try it. That feeling of 'i've been here before'.

I know DMT is capable of inducing deja-vu like experiences, but that's not realy it, since this feeling of familiarity is somehow different.

my explanation thus far is: counsciousness, when the brain is functioning the way it's supposed to, is generated by a series of processes and DMT is capable of making these processes run slightly out of sync, to temporarily distort the balance between these processes, so that instead of them running perfectly syncronised and thus creating a 'unified experience', you'd become aware of them separately.

But i feel that theory is lacking in some ways.

 

[proto-pax]

I'm pretty sure ethanol is in our blood too due to anaerobic metabolism........

 

[benzyme]

it would likely lean towards the latter.
you obviously wouldn't notice anything if an active compound were present below threshold levels; so in this respect, how would it have any bearing on consciousness? i mean, you technically wouldn't be conscious of it. :?

I don't agree with that logic. If you're in the supermarket deciding wich brand of potato chips to buy, you'll obviously gonna choose counsciously for the brand wich features a naked girl in it's TV commercials without knowing or even bothering why you'd suddenly feel that this brand is worth paying the extra 50 cents for.

But back to the DMT. I'm not asking what the function of DMT is.
I'm intrigued by a phenomenon many people also seem to have experienced on psychedelic's such as DMT, and that is a feeling of familiarity with it, even when it's the first time you try it. That feeling of 'i've been here before'.

I know DMT is capable of inducing deja-vu like experiences, but that's not realy it, since this feeling of familiarity is somehow different.

my explanation thus far is: counsciousness, when the brain is functioning the way it's supposed to, is generated by a series of processes and DMT is capable of making these processes run slightly out of sync, to temporarily distort the balance between these processes, so that instead of them running perfectly syncronised and thus creating a 'unified experience', you'd become aware of them separately.

But i feel that theory is lacking in some ways.

yea it is

and again, you're assuming DMT plays some key role in consciousness, when as i've already pointed out, it's not even a key neurotransmitter. It's not even present long enough to be a blip on the radar, a reason it's been very problematic to probe it en vivo.

you can interpret it however you want, but the evidence doesn't support your theory.

 

[polytrip]

No, i don't assume DMT plays a role in counsciousness. Where did you get that impression?

 

[benzyme]

No, i don't assume DMT plays a role in counsciousness. Where did you get that impression?

But it's one of the following two anyway: either DMT plays an elementary part in our counsciousness and that's why it has such effects.
Or our counsciousness is structured in such a way that changing just a few little parameters in the processes that drive it, unfolds all it exists of to itself.

 

[polytrip]

Well, i'm leaning towards the last of the two, i think DMT's psychedelic effects are caused because it makes several brain mechanisms run out of sync so that individual mechanisms become more noticeable. In the visual effects you can for instance see that the processes that cause us to see shapes and processes that cause us to see colours are not running completely synchronised anymore, under the influence of DMT.

I was just trying to explore alternative theories, because basically most of the time if people come up with the idea that DMT could have a function, this alternative idea includes all kinds of metaphisical unworldly concepts, so the idea that DMT could have a function never realy got explored properly on this forum as a result of this.

 

[benzyme]

it seems evident that altering concentrations of DMT, while protecting it from rapid oxidation, causes dramatic changes in consciousness. I mean, that's pretty much how ayahuasca works.
as DMT likely acts as a competitive ligand at the 5HT sites, you'd need to increase concentration to displace the native ligand, serotonin.

the visual effects, metaphysical phenomena, and other psychedelic manifestations remains a mystery :?
Nichols and Co. are still trying to figure it out

 

[polytrip]

Well, on the visual effects i'm definately right. If you look realy good and with a bit of an analytical eye, you can clearly distinguish several visual processes taking place separately.
These processes normally take place anyway, so the fact that you can distinguish them is because they're no longer perfectly synchronised and in balance with eachother. Like you can more clearly distinguish a single instrument in a symphony orchestra when it plays out of tune.

 

[Virola78]

Well, i'm leaning towards the last of the two, i think DMT's psychedelic effects are caused because it makes several brain mechanisms run out of sync so that individual mechanisms become more noticeable. In the visual effects you can for instance see that the processes that cause us to see shapes and processes that cause us to see colours are not running completely synchronised anymore, under the influence of DMT.

I was just trying to explore alternative theories, because basically most of the time if people come up with the idea that DMT could have a function, this alternative idea includes all kinds of metaphisical unworldly concepts, so the idea that DMT could have a function never realy got explored properly on this forum as a result of this.

Polytrip, that is some fine quality out of the box thinking :d perfect blend of sense and intuition.
Very holistic angle i might add.

Unavoidable some concepts will be stretched :d and i think this is the only way to go. Luckily one can always go back to where one came from. Only the water should carve in stone.

 

[TakesOneToKnowOne]

But it's one of the following two anyway: either DMT plays an elementary part in our counsciousness and that's why it has such effects.
Or our counsciousness is structured in such a way that changing just a few little parameters in the processes that drive it, unfolds all it exists of to itself.

Dear Polytrip,

Do you think it could be both? Or is it more likely that just one of the two statements you made is true? I like to imagine them happening simultaneously, like some kind of a tandem sling-shot into reality itself. Not that I really know what I'm talking about, I just get a feeling. Also, I like using the phrase "tandem sling-shot into reality."

Sorry if this post is useless or just a distraction. I'm just glad to be here, and I love being part of a community of thinkers such as yourselves!

Lovingly,

One

 

[joedirt]

I don't want to reboot the pinealgland theory here. I would want to look at DMT in a different way.

My question is: if DMT would be a neurotransmitter instead of some coincidental by-product, what would it's function be then?
I'm not saying it is a neurotransmitter, i don't even think i'm suggesting it is, all i'm asking is..what if it IS a neurotransmitter?

There must be some people here who've got ideas about that.

The enzymes necessary to methylate DMT are found in the spine... The spine is in the CNS and is part of the central nervous system. It has direct access to the brain via the cerebral spinal fluid. There is a good paper on this floating around the site somewhere. I had a long talk with the head of biology at the last company I worked at about the experiments that were run for the paper and we both find it to be pretty damn convincing. I believe endlessness has the paper in PDF form around here somewhere.

DMT is a neurotransmitter as far as I'm concerned. I have a friendly bet with others on this board that science, likely coming out of LSU, will soon confirm this.


BTW the pineal was just a theory that Rick came up with. It's likely wrong, but it was a reasonable theory when he said it. He also made it very clear that it was a theory. Why people want to hold him accountable is beyond me! Get the book..The spirit molecule and read it.

--edited. That sounded rude! It wasn't mean to come across rude. and it wasn't directed at anyone in general. I should have read the entire thread before posting.

Peace

 

[jamie]

the fact that alot of people, including myself are having endogenous psychedelic experiences very much like those of harmala/DMT combinations is enough evidence for me to assme that DMT is an endogenous neurotransmitter. I am sure this will all be verified sooner or later...but as I have said before..for me it is not like a pure DMT trip..it is like ayahuasca.