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If the acetate salt is smokeable, should I stop there?

lazloz

Established member
Hi fellow Nexians,
This is my first post after some 15 years of lurking and learning. Up to now I, together with a dear friend, always used an A/B tek with HCl, NaOH and n-hexane on MHRB. No complaints so far, but growing older I feel less inclined in using harsh chemicals and stinky solvents.

I was dipping my toes in eco-friendly/food safe teks when it occured to me that I could just reduce my acid tea made with vinegar and stop there. There are going to be a lot of tannins of course (not a lot of fats though, MHRB shouldn't be too fat-loaded, right?). So my thinking was to use some gelatin like they do in the wine industry to "clearify" the vinegar tea, maybe even a bentonite decant to get rid of the gelatin and then reduce the tea to a smokeable goo.
Am I hallucinating or is it feasible?

PS: since benzoates are smokeable and citrates are vapeable, one could supposedly brew the acid tea with the respective acids.
 
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I have no doubt that this should work, but I don’t think the result you’re getting is necessarily much healthier when smoking than using some chemicals first to make your extraction more efficient.

My advice would be: if you really don’t want to work with naphtha, you could try using limonene as an alternative, and then back-salt from that with vinegar. You can then evaporate it and vaporize the resulting goo.
 
Thanks for your reply :)
Why do you say you doubt it's going to be healthier? It would be just water and vinegar and both can be completely evaporated. What is left is all plant material, hopefully DMT acetate for the major part, than NMT acetate, and other minor alkaloids and possibly tannins and lignins as contaminants. The latter not ideal to smoke but if in traces I'm not really concerned.

Limonene is super expensive where I live, like 150€/L, deal breaker for me. I was thinking about vegetable oil but I fear it is too messy.
 
Yes, that’s true, but when you end up smoking all those things that do make it into your extract, I think that’s probably much more harmful than just using some chemicals to make a clean extract. At the same time, that’s obviously a personal choice. Smoking DMT is probably not very healthy for anyone in the first place.

In any case, you could try veggie oil but be very cautious as saponification is real.
 
Yes, that’s true, but when you end up smoking all those things that do make it into your extract, I think that’s probably much more harmful than just using some chemicals to make a clean extract. At the same time, that’s obviously a personal choice. Smoking DMT is probably not very healthy for anyone in the first place.

In any case, you could try veggie oil but be very cautious as saponification is real.

Is there a scientific paper highlighting the various components of MHRB? I mean not the active substances, but rather the matrix in which they are dispersed. I ask because I think that with a cold/not boiling extraction/percolation with CH3COOH on powdered material, one should extract just the actives and some flavonoids. Worst case scenario lignins and phospholipids. Lipids could be removed by defatting pulls of veggie oil (no saponification here since no base was added), tannins/flavonoids removed by gelatin-->bentonite. Oxalic acid might be an issue though.
 
What is left is all plant material, hopefully DMT acetate for the major part, than NMT acetate, and other minor alkaloids and possibly tannins and lignins as contaminants.
Also acetic acid. I don't know if that's problematic to smoke or not.

If you find a way to reliably remove tannins without leaving residues (like egg protein) or removing too much DMT, I'm interested (to use in oral brews). I intend to look into PVPP for this purpose in the future, it's used by wine makers and should be easier to completely remove than egg or gelatin. I also found a paper where they used it to remove tea polyphenols (tannins among them) without removing caffeine or other substances. So it sounds promising.
 
Yes PVPP is another great candidate, thanks for pointing that out! I'm afraid the excess needs to be thoroughly filtered out because it forms a very fine suspension. With the right material (like 0.45 micron RC) it is doable though.

Now that I'm thinking about the oxalic acid I fear that all my thinking was in vain.. probably better to try a semi-dry tek with Na2CO3 and veggie oil. Like few cycles of freeze/thaw with vinegar water, percolate with lukewarm vinegar water, reduce to almost goo, mix with excess Na2CO3, let it dry, pull 5-6 times with veggie oil and salt back with vinegar, CASW/CASA/CASI.

It was too good to be true, but I Guess that just reducing a brew containing up to 10% oxalic acid is not a good idea.
 
Ahah I was reading this exact thread that you posted :)
Seems a very good and simple tek and if done with >96% ethanol (to which I have access) should yield sodium carbonate free product. I wonder if it would still be beneficial to soak the powder in diluted vinegar for a while before making a paste with Na2CO3, what do you think?
 
Ahah I was reading this exact thread that you posted :)
Seems a very good and simple tek and if done with >96% ethanol (to which I have access) should yield sodium carbonate free product. I wonder if it would still be beneficial to soak the powder in diluted vinegar for a while before making a paste with Na2CO3, what do you think?
You might also want to look into what I've dubbed the "TnT" vodka/lime tek, where a brew in hot vodka can have the tannin removed using calcium hydroxide. While still technically a work-in-progress, it shows some promise as a route to freebase DMT tincture. Further experiments are detailed in the "little lightening [sic] bolt" thread, but a proper write-up shall be forthcoming within the fext few weeks.

If you're looking to reinvent the wheel, at least check out some of the method development that's gone into the TnT so far.
 
You might also want to look into what I've dubbed the "TnT" vodka/lime tek, where a brew in hot vodka can have the tannin removed using calcium hydroxide. While still technically a work-in-progress, it shows some promise as a route to freebase DMT tincture. Further experiments are detailed in the "little lightening [sic] bolt" thread, but a proper write-up shall be forthcoming within the fext few weeks.

If you're looking to reinvent the wheel, at least check out some of the method development that's gone into the TnT so far.
Hi Transform, thanks for chiming in!
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel, I'm just brainstorming on possible lazy ways of obtaining a smokeable/vapeable product.
I tried the search functions for TnT because I stumbled upon your posts in endlessness's thread, but I wasn't able to find it. Could you spam it here? I'm really interested!
 
tried the search functions for TnT because I stumbled upon your posts in endlessness's thread, but I wasn't able to find it.
Yes, for some reason "TnT*" doesn't turn up any results. Perhaps it's a blocked term "for some reason" :LOL:
I found a few things with a search for "vodka", where this recent post summarises a few entry points.
 
Thanks a lot!

Edit: I read your post, I actually found the thread a couple of days ago, but some posts in it are so verbose that I missed your contribution duh!
So, back to basics, I infer you suggest to macerate the powdered MHRB in 40ish % ethanol and then adding lime to both freebase and coagulate tannins, or is there a basifying step before the addition of vodka? Then you freeze "precipitate" water and what is left is ethanol+DMT that can be concentrated to just DMT? Am I getting in the ballpark?
 
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Thanks a lot!

Edit: I read your post, I actually found the thread a couple of days ago, but some posts in it are so verbose that I missed your contribution duh!
So, back to basics, I infer you suggest to macerate the powdered MHRB in 40ish % ethanol and then adding lime to both freebase and coagulate tannins, or is there a basifying step before the addition of vodka? Then you freeze "precipitate" water and what is left is ethanol+DMT that can be concentrated to just DMT? Am I getting in the ballpark?
:unsure:Hmm..Where did i hear that freebase is safe to vape...but salt is not considered smokable ...if smoked.... could be very harsh on throat and lungs.?
 
Thanks a lot!

Edit: I read your post, I actually found the thread a couple of days ago, but some posts in it are so verbose that I missed your contribution duh!
So, back to basics, I infer you suggest to macerate the powdered MHRB in 40ish % ethanol and then adding lime to both freebase and coagulate tannins, or is there a basifying step before the addition of vodka? Then you freeze "precipitate" water and what is left is ethanol+DMT that can be concentrated to just DMT? Am I getting in the ballpark?
That's about it! @blig-blug also performed a test using cold (room temperature) vodka followed by boiling off excess alcohol from the lime-treated tincture for oral use alongside harmalas:
XIX log update:

Dose: 230mg harmala freebase (from Rue) @ T-00:30 + 3ml tincture (equivalent to 1.5g Mimosa) @ T+00:00 + 3ml tincture (same) @ T+01:00. With empty stomach, fasted for 10 hours. Very late at night.

This was an experiment to try the tannin-free Mimosa tincture made following @Transform 's tek. As he had warned of signs of potential convulsant activity, I had a lower dose than I would have otherwise. So this was mainly an experiment to see the effects.

Due to some noise from the neighbors next door getting ready to leave the village the next day, I had to take it very late at night. The effects from the harmala alkaloids proved to me that the muricata doses I've had were low (and thus the material I have is weak): I started feeling as if transported to another world before I even drank the tincture.

The tincture had a very mild flavor, not unpleasant at all. Combined with the fact that it's so little volume of liquid, it was very easy to drink. This is a good plus. I couldn't feel any tannin dryness in my mouth (as it's supposed to be).

When I went upstairs, I found out I had forgotten to prepare some basics (bring there my mp3 player and earphones, a second blanket, a pillow...) and as I was already feeling effects come up, I frantically went downstairs to look for all I needed. It was difficult to find in the state I was in, and when I finally got it all my heart was pounding. I think I'm going to write down a checklist for the next time, because this is not a good way to start an experience, and I tend to be forgetful.

As I laid down, I felt profoundly relaxed. Soon, strong flashes of vibrating light appeared, and over time they developed into phantasmagorical, flickering images. Their style was very much that of Mimosa CEVs as opposed to pure DMT (at least for me): less well defined but somehow more realistic, quickly shifting (in this case they flickered fast and over time a new image started alternating with the old one during the flicker and finally replaced it), and with a feeling of "space" to them. So the tincture must have successfully extracted other actives besides DMT.

The content of the CEVs this time was very unusual for me, and somewhat embarrassing to recall. There were many women, specifically young women, very beautiful and often acting in a very sexually provocative way. Some of them naked. At times it was not sexual but they were looking upwards as if in prayer while crying. Over time, the images started being predominantly in an anime style (and I don't usually watch anime). Despite the high amount of sexual content, the feeling was one of sadness. I don't know why.

After some time, the CEVs started to become more abstract, and I think I would have started to have realistic-type visions if the dose had been higher. I started to have many complex trains of thought that I can't recall well. Part of it is due to it being unusually late, so I was tired and I think at some points I was drifting into a state not far from dreaming. I remembered many good moments of my life and friends I appreciate but haven't seen in a long time. I realized how their image had been slowly fading from my mind: now I could see them again clearly, as they are, a very fresh and vivid image. I'm going to reach out to them soon.

I also saw clearly the reason I misinterpreted @fink 's recent posts: the real problem is not how they were written, but that some posts he made before triggered some very negative associations, and so I was predisposed to misinterpreting it from the beginning. I apologize for that @fink , I was harsh just due to my own misinterpretations and issues.

At many points I could feel different presences, most of them benevolent. Unlike other times, I had no gastric discomfort (very slight bloating, but not uncomfortable) and didn't have muscle tension, I was very relaxed and felt safe and comfortable. So about three and a half hours in, everything started getting more and more dreamy, and eventually I fell asleep. When I woke up (five and a half hours after taking the Mimosa) there were still noticeable effects, although not strong. I went to bed, and when I woke up this morning I was still having tracers, at T+9:00! This is very unusual for me, also considering that the dose was not too high.

So the tincture worked perfectly, and it's exactly what I was looking for: the Mimosa effects without stomach pain. The tek is great and it's going to be my go-to way of preparing Mimosa. So thank you @Transform! As I didn't perceive any worrying effects, I'm going to try a higher dose with harmalas next time. And if it works well, I'll combine it with B. muricata.
 
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