If the acetate salt is smokeable, should I stop there?

[Transform]

Well.....maybe what i read was about.... smoking mescaline salts?...not DMT?

DMT is different..



Mescaline salts, such as mescaline hydrochloride, are not a desirable choice for smoking primarily because they are much less efficient when vaporized than their freebase form
. A substance's efficiency for smoking depends on its ability to vaporize at a relatively low temperature without breaking down. Mescaline salt's properties make this process difficult and wasteful.
Reasons why mescaline salts are undesirable for smoking

• High vaporization temperature: Salts have a higher boiling point than their freebase counterparts. This means it is difficult to vaporize mescaline salts without applying a high heat, which causes the chemical to degrade rather than turn into a smokable vapor.
• Poor volatility: The charged, polar nature of alkaloid salts prevents them from volatilizing easily. In contrast, freebase alkaloids are non-polar and uncharged, allowing them to vaporize at a lower temperature and be more readily absorbed by the lungs.
• Inefficient delivery: Because the salts do not vaporize efficiently, a significant portion of the substance is destroyed by the heat, and a user would need a much larger amount to feel any effects compared to other methods of consumption. Smoking mescaline salts is generally considered an inefficient and wasteful way to use the drug.
• Traditional and preferred methods: Historically, mescaline has been consumed orally by chewing or brewing dried peyote or other cacti, or by ingesting synthetic mescaline in pill form. Some users smoke dried cactus buttons with other leaf material like cannabis or tobacco, but this is a less common route of administration. The freebase form would be required for the most efficient smoking, but this is an uncommon preparation.

Legal and health considerations

• Illegal status: Mescaline is illegal in the U.S., regardless of the ingestion method. It is classified as a Schedule I substance with a high potential for abuse and no accepted medical use.
• Health risks: All methods of ingesting mescaline, including smoking, carry significant health risks and may cause side effects such as nausea, vomiting, anxiety, and an increased heart rate.

Mescaline benzoate vaporized fairly readily, except this thread's about DMT acetate

 

[Jamie01]

I took a huge bong hit of really crude citrate cactus tar stuff once many years ago. I remember a warm mescaline glow, colours brightening.

2cb vapes are apparently a thing.

I thought freebase mescaline was too caustic to vape safely?

 

[lazloz]

That's about it! @blig-blug also performed a test using cold (room temperature) vodka followed by boiling off excess alcohol from the lime-treated tincture for oral use alongside harmalas:

Wow! I'm going to try it on my next batch of MHRB, right now I'm doing a sunflower oil cold extraction on the 50g I had left, but this seems way easier and straight forward.
-macerate the MHRB in 40-50% EtOH or just simply vodka
-filter the powder out (percolate?)
-treat the tincture with Ca(OH)2, how much for a given amount of MHRB? 1:1?
-decant/filter the lime-tannins complexes
-freeze precipitate water or even low heat evaporation until satisfied

Please correct whatever is wrong.
Many thanks!

 

[blig-blug]

how much for a given amount of MHRB? 1:1?

I don't think you need that much, but it's not necessary to measure it. Just add it in small amounts and mix well, pausing periodically to see if a clear yellow layer starts forming on top as the tannins decant.

Please correct whatever is wrong.

All correct! Only be aware I didn't go all the way to a solid end product and I'm not sure if that has been done before.

 

[Transform]

Wow! I'm going to try it on my next batch of MHRB, right now I'm doing a sunflower oil cold extraction on the 50g I had left, but this seems way easier and straight forward.
-macerate the MHRB in 40-50% EtOH or just simply vodka
-filter the powder out (percolate?)
-treat the tincture with Ca(OH)2, how much for a given amount of MHRB? 1:1?
-decant/filter the lime-tannins complexes
-freeze precipitate water or even low heat evaporation until satisfied

Please correct whatever is wrong.
Many thanks!

I don't think you need that much, but it's not necessary to measure it. Just add it in small amounts and mix well, pausing periodically to see if a clear yellow layer starts forming on top as the tannins decant.

All correct! Only be aware I didn't go all the way to a solid end product and I'm not sure if that has been done before.

The lime amount has to be adjusted to every individual batch if not extraction as the amount of tannin varies. @blig-blug did a very good job of this. Hopefully, once more experiments have been done, we should be able to have a baseline amount/ratio for lime which can pretty much be dumped in in one go (but beware of clumping!) and then followed up with small increments to clear up the remaining dark red coloration as previously described.

I may have a notebook somewhere with a few figures in, but really it's quite straightforward to work in small increments while watching carefully for the colour change to orange-yellow.

But please remember that this is an experimental technique so you must pay close attention to what you're doing and preferably keep detailed notes of things like quantities, durations, temperatures and methods.

Fortunately, it's pretty simple - you just have to go easy on the lime addition, and rinse the solid residues with a little extra vodka each time to enhance yields.

One further extension of this I'd contemplate would be to see how much (if any) of the DMT might migrate into a naphtha or heptane phase, with a view to following that up with a freeze precipitation. Some might baulk at the mention of petroleum products in the context of what was meant to be a food grade extraction, but it's worth bearing in mind that the original source of heptane was from a particular species of pine tree.

 

[blig-blug]

One further extension of this I'd contemplate would be to see how much (if any) of the DMT might migrate into a naphtha or heptane phase, with a view to following that up with a freeze precipitation

Would that be on the full tincture (ethanol and water), on ethanol only, or in water only?
I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if the tincture extracts notably less DMT than normal teks, but the other Mimosa actives compensate for it. Something like that has to be happening with normal brews, because 3g Mimosa are stronger and longer in duration than 30mg DMT, and I'm not sure if it's possible even 30mg DMT could be extracted from 3g MHRB without basifying.

 

[Transform]

Would that be on the full tincture (ethanol and water), on ethanol only, or in water only?
I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if the tincture extracts notably less DMT than normal teks, but the other Mimosa actives compensate for it. Something like that has to be happening with normal brews, because 3g Mimosa are stronger and longer in duration than 30mg DMT, and I'm not sure if it's possible even 30mg DMT could be extracted from 3g MHRB without basifying.

Yeah, but 3g mimosa might contain 60mg or more of DMT, so…

It depends on the strength of the bark.

 

[lazloz]

The lime amount has to be adjusted to every individual batch if not extraction as the amount of tannin varies. @blig-blug did a very good job of this. Hopefully, once more experiments have been done, we should be able to have a baseline amount/ratio for lime which can pretty much be dumped in in one go (but beware of clumping!) and then followed up with small increments to clear up the remaining dark red coloration as previously described.

I may have a notebook somewhere with a few figures in, but really it's quite straightforward to work in small increments while watching carefully for the colour change to orange-yellow.

But please remember that this is an experimental technique so you must pay close attention to what you're doing and preferably keep detailed notes of things like quantities, durations, temperatures and methods.

Fortunately, it's pretty simple - you just have to go easy on the lime addition, and rinse the solid residues with a little extra vodka each time to enhance yields.

One further extension of this I'd contemplate would be to see how much (if any) of the DMT might migrate into a naphtha or heptane phase, with a view to following that up with a freeze precipitation. Some might baulk at the mention of petroleum products in the context of what was meant to be a food grade extraction, but it's worth bearing in mind that the original source of heptane was from a particular species of pine tree.

My day job is analytical chemistry R&D (mainly HPLC), I'll take detailed notes, you can be sure of it
My dream would be to test purity but I cannot purchase a reference standard and I don't know if the response factor is the same as melatonin/tryptophan, that would be awesome because I developed a method for melatonin not long ago, but I digress!

 

[Transform]

Would that be on the full tincture (ethanol and water), on ethanol only, or in water only?
I'm not sure if it would be worth it. I wouldn't be surprised if the tincture extracts notably less DMT than normal teks, but the other Mimosa actives compensate for it. Something like that has to be happening with normal brews, because 3g Mimosa are stronger and longer in duration than 30mg DMT, and I'm not sure if it's possible even 30mg DMT could be extracted from 3g MHRB without basifying.

Yeah, but 3g mimosa might contain 60mg or more of DMT, so…

It depends on the strength of the bark.

I forgot to answer the first part (it was late) - water or aqueous ethanol, the more water the better, I'd say, to help push the DMT out of the ethanol and into the NPS since they have a ridiculous affinity for each other. So, post- boiling off the ethanol as you did, and maybe at 40°C or so.

 

[blig-blug]

I forgot to answer the first part (it was late) - water or aqueous ethanol, the more water the better, I'd say, to help push the DMT out of the ethanol and into the NPS since they have a ridiculous affinity for each other. So, post- boiling off the ethanol as you did, and maybe at 40°C or so.

Well, I tried it before I saw this post, just out of curiosity, and also because I was concerned about the possibility of getting mold, as it didn't have ethanol anymore. I did it in a water bath at 100C, do you think it could have destroyed some actives?

As I already boiled it to reduce it, I figured out more boiling would be fine.
It didn't boil at any point, and actually it reduced very slowly. I had to refill the external container several times because the water level was getting too low, while the very small amount of water tincture (45ml) went down very very slowly. At one point, some solid, dark brown, very thin "plates" started precipitating. I understand it can't be DMT, as DMT would be melted at 100C, right?

After about 45 minutes with the heat at full blast, it didn't seem to be reducing anymore. I moved it around and it was yellow, oily (but fluid) substance, with slight iridescence when reflecting light. I waited to see if it would solidify after cooling down, but it didn't.
As I couldn't see a good way to handle this oil, I decided to redissolve it in vodka, so it won't get mold. Everything redissolved very easily. The re-dissolved tincture is more transparent than the water-based one, despite having double the concentration.

Do you think a second try at around 40C (I can't be very precise here) is worth a try? It looks like it would take forever, as it took 45 minutes to evaporate less than 45ml of water.

 

[Transform]

Well, I tried it before I saw this post, just out of curiosity, and also because I was concerned about the possibility of getting mold, as it didn't have ethanol anymore. I did it in a water bath at 100C, do you think it could have destroyed some actives?

As I already boiled it to reduce it, I figured out more boiling would be fine.
It didn't boil at any point, and actually it reduced very slowly. I had to refill the external container several times because the water level was getting too low, while the very small amount of water tincture (45ml) went down very very slowly. At one point, some solid, dark brown, very thin "plates" started precipitating. I understand it can't be DMT, as DMT would be melted at 100C, right?

After about 45 minutes with the heat at full blast, it didn't seem to be reducing anymore. I moved it around and it was yellow, oily (but fluid) substance, with slight iridescence when reflecting light. I waited to see if it would solidify after cooling down, but it didn't.
As I couldn't see a good way to handle this oil, I decided to redissolve it in vodka, so it won't get mold. Everything redissolved very easily. The re-dissolved tincture is more transparent than the water-based one, despite having double the concentration.

Do you think a second try at around 40C (I can't be very precise here) is worth a try? It looks like it would take forever, as it took 45 minutes to evaporate less than 45ml of water.

Your method sounds like a decent way of producing a more concentrated tincture.

Do you mean a second try at pulling from the reduced-solvent oil? It would be interesting to find out whether the solid layer forms again, if you're thinking of repeating the evaporation. You might be able to spare some water bath evaporation by using a lid with a suitable aperture for the beaker with the extract. Aluminium foil would be one easy solution, although I've improvised a steam bath using an inverted preserving funnel with a neck of the right diameter for my flask to sit in quite snugly.

Evaporation would occur best at 80 - 100°C or even a bit more once most of the alcohol has gone. The 40°C is suggested for extracting into naphtha/heptane.

 

[blig-blug]

Do you mean a second try at pulling from the reduced-solvent oil?

That's what I meant, because I misread and thought 40C was being advised for water.

It would be interesting to find out whether the solid layer forms again, if you're thinking of repeating the evaporation.

Yes, I suspect it will. Looks like some type of impurity (like tannins) to me, and if that's the case, making it precipitate and then separating the oily layer would be a good way of getting a more pure tincture. I didn't mention it, but the solid layer forms at the bottom, it doesn't float. And it's not a lot. Unfortunately I can't take pictures, my phone camera is too blurry for this.

I'm going to try the tincture as it is now first, to make sure it's still active and to further investigate its effects at a higher dose. That way, I may be able to notice later if removing the solids causes some change in effects.

 

[lazloz]

That's what I meant, because I misread and thought 40C was being advised for water.


Yes, I suspect it will. Looks like some type of impurity (like tannins) to me, and if that's the case, making it precipitate and then separating the oily layer would be a good way of getting a more pure tincture. I didn't mention it, but the solid layer forms at the bottom, it doesn't float. And it's not a lot. Unfortunately I can't take pictures, my phone camera is too blurry for this.

I'm going to try the tincture as it is now first, to make sure it's still active and to further investigate its effects at a higher dose. That way, I may be able to notice later if removing the solids causes some change in effects.

Do you happen to have some feedback on the matter? I'm very interested in knowing if reducing by boiling/heating reduces yield. Thanks

 

[blig-blug]

Do you happen to have some feedback on the matter? I'm very interested in knowing if reducing by boiling/heating reduces yield. Thanks

The first boiling didn't seem to reduce activity at all when compared to a water-based brew. I'm not sure about this second one as I had some stomach issues unrelated to the Mimosa, but I'll try again next Wednesday so I'll tell you when I know.

 

[lazloz]

The lime amount has to be adjusted to every individual batch if not extraction as the amount of tannin varies. @blig-blug did a very good job of this. Hopefully, once more experiments have been done, we should be able to have a baseline amount/ratio for lime which can pretty much be dumped in in one go (but beware of clumping!) and then followed up with small increments to clear up the remaining dark red coloration as previously described.

I may have a notebook somewhere with a few figures in, but really it's quite straightforward to work in small increments while watching carefully for the colour change to orange-yellow.

But please remember that this is an experimental technique so you must pay close attention to what you're doing and preferably keep detailed notes of things like quantities, durations, temperatures and methods.

Fortunately, it's pretty simple - you just have to go easy on the lime addition, and rinse the solid residues with a little extra vodka each time to enhance yields.

One further extension of this I'd contemplate would be to see how much (if any) of the DMT might migrate into a naphtha or heptane phase, with a view to following that up with a freeze precipitation. Some might baulk at the mention of petroleum products in the context of what was meant to be a food grade extraction, but it's worth bearing in mind that the original source of heptane was from a particular species of pine tree.

So, I just now ruined an extraction on 50g at the very last step. I went with a citric acid tea, filtered and reduced the tea to a goo, mixed with excess Na2CO3, dried and powdered. Pulled three times with 99% EtOH, freezed to decant Na2CO3 (none after 24 hours) proceeded to evaporate EtOH pulls to a goo. I could have stopped here and have a decent product, but I decided to dissolve in CHCl3 and discard the undissolved tannins but managed to spill everything in the sink because I got burned by the adjecent double boiler I used to evaporate EtOH. I feel stupid.

Anyhow, in what I can now reinterpret as a foggy mind state, I immediately went ahead and acidified 150g of MHRB with 500 mL of 1% citric acid solution (warm). It is now sitting in a jar. I can I salvage this and proceed with the TnT tek? I suppose I could add about 200 mL of 96-99% EtOH and leave to maceration and then basify/de-tan with Ca(OH)2? I have roughly 5g of citric acid in the soup and that would create some form of Calcium citrate (Ca3Citr2 x-hydrated?) that is somewhat soluble in water (around 1mg/mL, leaving me with 500mg of it in my final yield that should fall between 1.5 and 3g).

What if I de-tan the tincture, reduce it the most I can without screwing the freebase, mix with Ca(OH)2 to make a paste, dry and powder and then pull again with EtOH? This way I shouldn't have any contaminant given that both Calcium hydroxide and Calcium citrate are not soluble in EtOH. Sure it is not as straight forward.

Alternatively I could again reduce the acid brew and proceed with basifying the sludge with Ca(OH)2 hoping it would still complex tannins so that when I pull with EtOH the yield is somewhat purer and I don't need to redissolve in nasty CHCl3/CH2Cl2.

Mainly I just need a pat on my shoulder and some words of advice.

Thanks

 

[Transform]

I could have stopped here and have a decent product, but I decided to dissolve in CHCl3 and discard the undissolved tannins but managed to spill everything in the sink because I got burned by the adjecent double boiler I used to evaporate EtOH. I feel stupid.

Don't worry, I've done worse in the lab myself, as well as almost the exact same!


KEEP THE CHLOROFORM IN THE BOTTLE AND LOCKED IN A CUPBOARD!

You were somehow right in focussing on when to stop


TnT tek starts with brewing the bark in vodka, not acidified water. At this stage you might as well just carry on with @endlessness' standard eco-friendly tek variant much as you did the first time, but of course you should be able to substitute the SC with lime. Evaporating loads of water is rather a pain, of course.

Your alternative would be adding enough pure (95+%) ethanol to the brew you already have, but that'll require just short of 350mL to get to the appropriate ~40% ABV required. Then you'd be able to precipitate tannin quite easily with lime.

 

[lazloz]

Evaporating loads of water is rather a pain, of course.

Yeah, that's my main concern, I really don't want to do it, but alas.

Your alternative would be adding enough pure (95+%) ethanol to the brew you already have, but that'll require just short of 350mL to get to the appropriate ~40% ABV required. Then you'd be able to precipitate tannin quite easily with lime.

I could do it no problem, but what about the calcium citrate? And then I would still have to evap 850 mL

 

[Transform]

I wouldn't worry about the calcium citrate. It's probably not that soluble in vodka. Once you've got the cleared up tincture, you'll still have a ridiculous volume to work with and it'll be rather dilute. On the plus side, it gives you a lot of aliquots to experiment with, such as removing excess water by freezing, then pipetting off or otherwise separating the alcohol phase, or perhaps some experimental pulls into various non-polar solvents.

Breaking up the aqueous brew (before adding alcohol) into smaller aliquots would allow you to add a smaller volume of ethanol to just one of them, and then re-use it if you're equipped to recover the ethanol. Another possibility is to try IPA with one aliquot.

Whatever you choose, it's probably best to have a plan at this point.

 

[lazloz]

Yeah it's time to have a plan, you're quite right. My problem is I'm impatient and often tired, so I start OK and then I rush things and mess everything up. Can't afford it this time around though!

 

[lazloz]

I have a question, en passant. What if CaCO3 is used to precipitate tannins? Does it work? Obviously that won't convert any salts to freebase, but say one just wants to detanninize the solution.

I ask because I brewed my acid tea in a steel pot with tap water and then thoroughly filtered (through Whatmann paper) and reduced in the same (cleaned) pot, and now I have a very thin film of what appears to be calcium (and/or magnesium) tannate on the bottom.