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Impatience is a virtue

Migrated topic.
LOL, we are hard to please it is true. The standards here are really high. I mean just look at and read that orange text above the posting area. Ever see anything like that anywhere else? Perhaps you have but I have not.

Also, nothing wrong with a little bragging - I put what bonafides I had out there in my overly long intro essay. I bragged endlessly about a crappy book I wrote. So, my apologies if that came off the wrong way. You know probably as I do, that first impressions are valuable but not all there is to life - the proof is in the depth of the pudding so to speak.

The Attitude link here is very valuable - it appears in your Welcome pm as well as at the top of the forum pages. I don't know about other members but I make a POINT of reviewing it in depth at LEAST once a month. I believe it is important to always remember that this place is different and maintains very high standards. I need to remember that even though I have a lot of experience and am well read compared to others here that I need to maintain my humbleness. There are lots of employed scientists here, as well as at least a few medical personnel and a huge number of other depth professions. Lots of students and grad students focusing on the hard stuff. The Administrator spends a huge amount of money and personal time maintaining this place. It's amazing how much I HAVE LEARNED from people half my age here. Everything I've listed here and more deserves respect in my opinion. Attitudes CAN be communicated very clearly via text.

I hope this helps give you an idea of who we are and how we operate. If you choose to leave that is your choice. If you choose to stay, I hope you will contribute in a positive manner.
 
I am happy to answer any questions, but won't get into any further arguments about my introduction or the process. I came here to help, not to bicker. Feel free to read into my posts in this thread whatever you like as I won't bother defending them anymore. Life's too short to put up with people who just want to see the worst in everyone.

If you'd like to know anything else about me please feel free to ask. Also, if you have any questions that fall within my fields of expertise then feel free to point me to your threads as that is ultimately what I came here for.
 
If people are consistently seeing the worst in you, perhaps it's because you have shitty people skills and are presenting yourself very badly.

Personally, I'm hoping you'll pack it up and go back to your own forum. However, until our fearless leader wants to weigh in on the matter, I won't fight with another moderator about it.
 
Irie,
Wow, it should be an honor to have such a knowledgeable KOOK (keeper of original knowledge) around.
Good to see you here....Hope you'll stick around!
Big Respect to T.
Zaka
 
Welcome to the Nexus, Tabaluga.

I can understand your frustration with the system we've got set up here, especially if you feel you don't have time to take the steps necessary for promotion. (I realize that you have been promoted and hopefully it stays that way for now...) I hope however you also understand that we have set up this kind of system in order to keep this place as a valuable resource actually worth participating in - whether socially or scientifically. It's been working quite well over the past years. Rather than being annoyed with it, as I felt you appeared in your initial posts, perhaps see it in a different light: it's what makes this place worth wile.


From what you've written about yourself I'm sure you have a lot to offer, and I'm glad you've chosen to join. As with every community, when new people join, a bit of friction in the beginning is normal, until both adapt to one another. I hope that after this little episode of frustration we can return to the mutual respect and clarity that we typically share here. Because no matter what great information we may be willing to share with one another, if we fail to transmit it in a way that others are open to receive it, the info is lost. That is - rubbing people the wrong way, being offensive or whatever usually does not help get our point across.

Unfortunately this means that sometimes the information is lost due to personal feelings, simply because of HOW someone spoke. It's something I'm sure everyone has experienced - think of some of the worse teachers you've had...

Like I said, it usually takes a bit of adaption on both sides.

That being said, please let's not fuel this discussion more than necessary. I'm sure everyone has better things to do than getting angry at each other.
 
Pandora said:
Question: What can you tell us about cutting edge AU law as it relates to entheogenic plants such as various acacias?
Click to expand...

Big topic and I presume there will be dedicated threads to it very soon - if there aren't already. In a nutshell there are currently 3 major changes underway.

1) The NSW state government is looking at alternatives to scheduling. They are seriously considering the new NZ model of regulation for new drugs. This has been a long and slow process and may come to nothing in the end, but it has been an itnerestign process to watch and participate in. The parliamentary enquiry should report in about february and new laws may follow soon after. While this does not directly affect DMT, it is nonetheless important because it is the thin end of the wedge. Imagine synthetic cannabinoids being regulated while cannabis is prohibited - this is obviously not a sustainable position on the basis of toxicity when we already have proof that cannabis is less toxic than the synthetics. Similarly there will be serotonergics and adrenergics that will also become regulated and hence the already illegal drugs that have lower toxicity should then become available too. State law overrides federal drug law in australia, so workig on this ata state by state level is important. Sadly this is the only potentially good development. The rest are negative.

2) The state of Qld will be introducing a bill into parliament that will radically change drug law in that state. At the moment any new drugs must satisfy two conditions to be classed as analogues. They must be structurally similar AND they must have a similar pharmacological action. The new bill aims to change the 'AND' to 'OR'. ie if you possess an adrenergic drug then you can be charged with possession of amphetamine even if there is no structural similarity. The details for this are still thin on the ground, but we already have plenty of unworkable and stupid laws in australia so stupidity itself won't stop them.

3) The third is the main problem. It is a federal proposal to extend the federal drug schedules. The proposed schedules [called the model schedules] were published nearly 2 years ago and we've been waiting to see how they might be implemented. The proposed process was to have them go through parliament as an act which would have allowed us to fight them with the resources we have available. Instead the government has changed their process by making an amendment to the act which removes the schedules fromt he act and places them into the regulations. regulations do not have to go through parliament and hence are not scrutinised and leave little option for effective opposition. While the model schedules themselves have not been enacted yet, the change from act to regulations passed parliament 2 weeks ago without anyone noticing. if the model schedules are implemented as proposed they will prohibit the possession and sale of many plants and their seeds [each seed being counted as a plant]. The model schedules include 'all DMT containing plants', 'all mescaline containing plants', 'all Datura & Brugmansia' and several more. For more information and details go to http://www.gardenfreedom.com
In most australian states it has so far been legal to grow plants that contain dmt or mescaline as long as the plants were not harvested which is the basic definition of 'preparation' here]. So unless someone was watching you harvest your chacruna and knew what it was, your legal risk was virtually zero. The new laws will make possession of the plants themselves illegal in all states under federal drug laws which has very severe penalties. We expect the model schedules to be introduced into law over the next 6 months. This could be as soon as tomorrow, but hopefully not. The schedules also become active as soon as they are declared by the minister, ie unless you check the gazette every morning you won't know if your garden is now a jailable offence.
The laws are intentionally broad and vague, and are designed to be applied selectively. ie granny next door will probably never have any trouble with her datura and cactus collection, but the hippie who has been know to police for his plant-evil ways can get jail for the same offence.

When these model schedules were first proposed no one understood them - not even the department that wrote them. I have been arguing with them for nearly 2 years now and finally got them to udnerstand just how far reaching their laws actually are. When I first contacted them they were unaware that we had native plants that contained DMT. Their response was that it only affected a handful of exotic species and no natives. They also claimed it would not affect individual collectors. I have retractiosn of both statements now, but it seems that every time I contact them the whole process starts from the beginning. ie when I emailed them last week they again said that there are no native species with DMT. It's like talking to a brick wall, so we are hoping they will introduce the schedules gradually which will allow us to challenge them in the courts one by one.
 
Welcome Tabaluga, good to see you here.

The closing date for submissions on the proposed legislation which would ban acacias (and other plants) was March 31 2011. Since then nothing has been said by the government.

Have you heard differently Tabaluga?
The response was so overwhelming against, I assumed they'd put in on 'hold'.

There is an astonishing range of people arguing against the proposed legislation on this ABC Radio National forum from last year: Banned plants - ABC Radio National
I just noticed Nen (!) 's comment from in there last year:
What the government will be doing with this legislation is bringing greater attention to what was not exactly widely known. Already (in response) underground research teams are scrambling to post yet more species (containing the naughty natural compounds) on various net forums (search & you will find..). Several sites claim as many as 50 additional wattle species contain the same compounds as
those on the proposed schedule list...(don't want to give http here, just do some googling!)
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I didn't notice this till today. Welcome 'T'. :)

He's ok!. He just likes a bit of intellect like half of you:p haha.
LOTS of plant knowledge!! In this case intelligence is a virtue.
He spends a lot of time managing arguing enthoheads:lol: lol
 
The Meddling Monk said:
Welcome Tabaluga, good to see you here.

The closing date for submissions on the proposed legislation which would ban acacias (and other plants) was March 31 2011. Since then nothing has been said by the government.

Have you heard differently Tabaluga?
The response was so overwhelming against, I assumed they'd put in on 'hold'.
Click to expand...

The plant aspect of this legislation is only a very minor part from their perspective. These schedules are mostly about synthetic drugs and precursors, and I can guarantee you that these sections will be implemented in full. As for the plant schedules it is really hard to say what the outcome will be. However we can take a good guess by looking at who is behind them, why they were created, and what they are supposed to achieve. That sadly leaves a very bleak outlook. The overriding principle is that these are MODEL schedules which means that they are not only suppsoed to be federal schedules, but that the feds expect them to be implemented into state drug law over time to harmonise the legislation in all states. Hence the reference to MODEL. To ensure that no state is 'worse off' with the implementation the model schedules need to include ALL substances currently in state schedules. As SA already has the listing of 'all DMT/mescaline containing plants', this definition is almost certainly going to be part of the federal schedules.

I know there was a lot of opposition to the initial proposal, but after continued communication with the attourney generals department I am convinced that this has been of virtually no impact [other than maybe making their approach more sneaky by keeping it out of parliament]. After nearly 2 years and hundreds of letters telling them so [including published analyses], they STILL claim that there are no dmt containing native plants and that this is all news to them. It takes a lot more than a few people chatting on ABC to sway government policy and sadly the people who did talk about the issue largely failed to get mainstream support. Bottom line is that the only mainstream stakeholder that was willing to speak out against this was the rep from the nursery association and he was recruited to the cause by the rather conservative guys from gardenfreedom, not by members of the ethnobotany community. Since that time a couple of cactus society chapters have also shown support, but the vast majority of them refuse to get involved in anything that is tainted by a perception of pro-drugs. To really have an impact it would ahve required ALL nursery associations, cactus societies and various ethnic groups to unite behind this, but this was impossible. I feel that the only option we have now is to wait till the schedules are presented in their final form and then challenge them in the courts.

There is also a small hope that the government will issue a collectors permit system which will likely cost plenty of money and will establish a database of all collectors. This is what they did when they wanted to shut the kava market down. By pretending to run a long term permit system they got a registry of all kava importers and dealers, so when they closed the market 2 years later they could notify all permit holders and thus ensure that all prosecutions would be successful [impossible to plead ignorance if you were on the permit system]. A permit system would also spread out the opposition. Satisfy hardcore collectors now by giving permits which then marginalises the rest of the opposition. Then some years latr when the first lot has forgotten about their loss of freedoms they can strip the collectors of their rights. A nice way to divide the opposition. That's exactly the same effect the permit system had on the opposition to the kava restrictions and it worked brilliantly.

As for Nen's comment at the time, i am not sure how that would help. The model schedules did not list any species, so publishing new ones will not change the schedules' relevance. It's a great way to make the laws more futile, so definitely great advice, but it in no way helps to protect our rights, which is my primary focus. It may in fact harm things if there is a raid. A person is only likely to be convicted if a plant was found to contain DMT and the person was reasonably expected to know that it did contain DMT. So if someone looked up whether his acacia collection contains any illegals and the authorities find the document in the cache or HD then the defendant will not be able to sucessfully claim ignorance. The more you know the more liable you are. hence I am currently very busy forgetting everything I know about acacias ;)
 
If they want to haul me up for personal use, then ok. That's the risk I take for chosing to work on my health.
Unless I've got extract of 2kg or the like I don't see what to worry about. Like cannabis I think more open discussion of use will help, rather than lurking in the shadows. Of course they want us to Fear. That's how they work, but I won't give in. So I'm happy to admit to ALL my Acacia knowledge and USE:).
 
Tabaluga said:
3) The third is the main problem. It is a federal proposal to extend the federal drug schedules.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your in-depth response. Very interesting. I am here in USA and I remember reading on various forums about the draconian changes you reference beginning approximately two years ago.

Although your response is about much more than what I chose to quote above I have another question for you.

Question: If you can answer this you may confirm or destroy a type of conspiracy theory that has popped up in my household due to your response above. My question is: Has the USA played any part at all in this? From funding to meddling? Or is this strictly an Australian matter, without outside interference?
 
..welcome Tabaluga:)..you Have been a the front line fighting for rights, so i respect your caution..
The more you know the more liable you are. hence I am currently very busy forgetting everything I know about acacias
Click to expand...
..fair enough, and we each know the limits of our risks..
but i can say that i am completely known to the authorities, who know where i live..i do genuine scientific research, i never sell anything..they are welcome to raid me any day and they know that, and that i'm that unconcerned..
why? it costs a lot of money to mount a Federal case..if there isn't even supply, let alone trafficking, what's the point of the cost..could get thrown out and make them look foolish..no one is going to jail over a few live plants..(at least not until they make the laws even more fascist)
e.g. a certain ayahuasca importer a few years ago..got handed back his bottle after judge threw out fed case! (i'm not in direct support of this individual btw, just of their liberty)
..i tend to agree with the monk on the fear aspect..

"I've just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the Senate."

"How will the Emperor maintain control..?"

"Fear."

..part of the strength of the Nexus is emphasising a no-sale policy towards these things..that, while not being completely safe of course, should keep the fear of jail away for most..also, the emphasis on individuals extracting their own dmt from plants (i.e no middle-men, dealers etc) tends to make this a sparse hunting ground for feds wanting their big publicity bust..

it is true, though, Tabaluga, as you say, that in australia information can have legal restraints..
i guess my theory is to help information go 'viral' so it can't be contained..
and to make clear Why i would go out of my way to try to bring light to this info..
not to 'get high' or make any money, and not even just for some civil-libertarian ideal..
i truly believe in the spiritual wisdom of these plants..
i suspect you do do too, or you wouldn't have devoted your life to risking liberty in their name..;)

Pandora (hi! must see you in chat again one day soon:)) wrote:
Has the USA played any part at all in this? From funding to meddling? Or is this strictly an Australian matter, without outside interference?
Click to expand...
..interesting question..Tabaluga probaly knows more, but the US government can 'dismiss' Australian Prime Ministers if they get a bit too 'socialist'..the Pine Gap US Missile Tracking Facility (in the middle of the desert) is actually US Soil! (not australian!:surprised )..
.
.
 
Pandora said:
Question: If you can answer this you may confirm or destroy a type of conspiracy theory that has popped up in my household due to your response above. My question is: Has the USA played any part at all in this? From funding to meddling? Or is this strictly an Australian matter, without outside interference?
Click to expand...

Australian drug policy is almost never strictly an australian issue. Any attempts to liberalise drug policy in australia has always met with interference from the USA. Even scientific trials of supervised heroin injecting rooms were significant enough for the USA to send people out here to put pressure on our politicians. One state in australia produces a large percentage of legal opiates via poppy farming and basically anytime any moves are made to look at alternative drug policies we are held to ransom by the USA who can veto our licensed opiate production. The USA even sent their drug czar over when there was talk of a heroin [instead of methadone] supply trial.
So while I don't see the USA having any direct interest in these laws, I feel that at the very least their constant meddling and influence has removed any politicians from office who are likely to challenge the current policy. ie if you remove the effective opposition to the general policy then you will still get the desired outcome even without the need to get involved in the finer details of that policy over time.
 
Hi Nen, it's been a while!

but i can say that i am completely known to the authorities, who know where i live..i do genuine scientific research, i never sell anything..they are welcome to raid me any day and they know that, and that i'm that unconcerned..

I don't think you would be high on their list of targets. However possession is possession and there is no automatic exemption for scientists under australian law. The processes to be allowed to work with such substances are ridiculous which is why no one bothers in australia.
A fed case is only worthwhile if there are other benefits. Nothing like taking out the top of the knowledge tree to put a dent in things - at least that's what they would think.

a certain ayahuasca importer a few years ago..got handed back his bottle after judge threw out fed case!

This could have just as well gone the other way. wrong judge or wrong day could have resulted in a very different outcome. And sadly it sets n precedent for anyone else as it was only a lower court.

"Fear."

Absolutely! That's what it is all about. My position in this always to educate rather than to stop people from doing things. I have been interested in legal matters for a long time and one of the thigns I see over and over is that people get themselves into a depth of trouble they had no idea about. So when I make people aware of laws I don't meanto tell them to stop doing what theya re doing, but rather to do it in a smart way that minimises their potential damage.
In the old days smart pot growers used to have the magic limit of 49 plants because it was unlikely to get jail on first offence for anything under 50 plants. The not so smart ones would get busted with 200 seedlings at once and end up in jail. These days the law is more complex but the issues are the same. if you know the laws then you can avoid the majority of fallout while still doing what you do.


part of the strength of the Nexus is emphasising a no-sale policy towards these things..that, while not being completely safe of course, should keep the fear of jail away for most..also, the emphasis on individuals extracting their own dmt from plants (i.e no middle-men, dealers etc) tends to make this a sparse hunting ground for feds wanting their big publicity bust..

There are plenty of places that encourage trading of seeds and plants, but this is currently legal. In a few months it may be illegal to trade acacia seeds. You could get a federal drugs charge for swapping 10 maidenii seeds. Not everyone is connected enough to obtain seeds by private trade. the big groundswell for ayahuasca and analogues has been the ready availability of the plants. if this is removed the number of new people entering the scene will be dramatically reduced. Just think of how the laws have affected salvia and kratom availability in australia. I get weekly cries for help from people who have spent a year or two or three trying to find salvia despite the fact it is still around.
Ignoring laws and operating in freedom without fear is possible for some, but others don't have the contacts or courage to do so.

My greatest concern about the model schedules isn't actually their implementation into fed law. The fed law couldn't be bothered with small time stuff. But pelase keep in mind these are model schedules to be adopted by each state. States will not have a 10 plant minimum, but rather a single plant or single seed minimum. State cops are also far more trivial in their pursuits and will happily bust someone for a single seed if it is likely to get them a first offence conviction [because it makes second offence convictions easier and more substantial]. In our recent raid the cops were not all that interested in the large bags of wite and beige powders we have lying around everywhere. They were far more interested in used pipes, baggies containing half a gram of green herbal material, prescription medicines that were not in our names, and various other trivial things that would have gotten them an easy conviction. They struck out on all of those, but not for lack of trying. It shows you that if they can't get you for the big things they'll try to get you for whatever they can, if only to intimidate you.


i guess my theory is to help information go 'viral' so it can't be contained..
and to make clear Why i would go out of my way to try to bring light to this info..
not to 'get high' or make any money, and not even just for some civil-libertarian ideal..
i truly believe in the spiritual wisdom of these plants..
i suspect you do do too, or you wouldn't have devoted your life to risking liberty in their name..;)

we're on the same page. I just seem to be exposed a lot more to the noobs and I know that the ethnobotany scene has a very high throughput. Like I said, it has only taken 7 years to remove salvia from the reach of the majority who pass through and I feel any restrictions on other plants will do the same. It's not just the knowledge that needs to be out there, but also the means. The laws really won't affect you or me in terms of our beliefs, availability and freedoms, but we already know what we want. If you want to have an impact you need to nurture the youth.
 
i'm a saboteur, i appreciate your presence here :thumb_up: look forward to whatever may come

it may just be rumours but i hear things and people associated with the nursery over the years have played a significant role in the story of DMT in Australia.


thanks to The Traveller having a .me the nexus here obviously gets to be a bit looser than the way the other forum has to be run. (note the general lack of shenanigans here though!).. the thing i come here for is one thing that's not allowed over there, so it's good to see you here
 
I think we've played a significant part in plant awareness over the years, but i wouldn't say that specifically about dmt. I can think of at least 4 or 5 people who are far more specialised in that regard. Just like Nen is all about the knowledge being out there for us it was always about getting the plants themselves out there - and not just to the people who were already in the scene. I get a thrill everytime someone gets plants from us and tells us that they live in some remote conservative community where no one knows about their special interest in ayahuasca or cati or whatever, but because of what we do they can now grow the plants and learn about them and learn with them. That is what these new laws threaten and the authorities know exactly why this is important to them.

our forums run on .com to keep out of immediate aussie authority reach, but we have plenty of other domains to flip to if that ever became an issue.
 
Hey Tabaluga! welcome on board mate.. look forward to your contributions :D i'm too tired to type anymore but i'll see ya round in the acacia section no doubt (and other threads too of course :roll: )
 
thanks for reply, free ticket to ega for a haiku poem on sab last year was the entry point to me, no one i know here is really into ethnos, so kudos to you :d
 
Seldom said:
thanks for reply, free ticket to ega for a haiku poem on sab last year was the entry point to me, no one i know here is really into ethnos, so kudos to you :d
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..:lol: ?.?..while i did once almost agree with a statement on sab 2-3 years ago about the nexus: "What I can't handle about the Nexus is nobody grows anything!"..this place has grown fast!..planting the seeds of knowledge, as Tabaluga plants the physical seeds..i felt like saying to that sab comment: "Yeah but what I can't handle about the typical sab respondent is nobody extracts anything!"..
..Neither statement is true..these are just tow slightly differently orientated sites..each important..

Seldom..you may be surprised who's in 'here' at the Nexus, especially who reads acacia threads..
hidden famous people, well-known enthnobotanical authors under avatars (who tell me 'i don't want anyone to know that's me!😉 ), senior custodians, the odd politician (in office, yes)..many of the plant suppliers (who've broadened their ranges as the thread progressed, with well 'informed' choices:)..and of course law enforcement, but also the 'thinking' side, as well as the Emperor's drones..yeah, a few police and the odd magistrate don't object to personal safe communion with the sacred following ancient traditions (as long as no one knows who they are, lol)
and as for people who get paranoid with TOR protocols etc..if they want to find you, they will..just live your life as you feel is right..have faith in spirit and use the force!
i think Tabaluga you will find the Nexus a strong access point for the youth culture..:) ..post some of your Techno if you like..:d

..so, all you SAB snobs..come and share some plant knowledge with the youth as T, who's shown you so much, is..!:p

..but, Tabalugu..wow, 11 maidenii seeds an offence?..jesus!..we live in the New-Taliaban's Australia..:twisted:
 
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