• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

Increasing Mescaline Biosynthesis to Genetic Potential

Migrated topic.

modern

Esteemed member
So I shared this idea on my YT but since discussion isn't very easy on that platform I'm posting this on a few forums so others can test this idea.

This may all be bullshit but all seems viable and logical to me. I'd love if someone could test atleast the apple/banana theory next harvest of theirs

Since we already have the pathway for biosynthesis of mescaline why not just facilitate the process.

In the past there have been posting on doping cacti with tyrosine or dopa however that never seems entirely plausible since it would require injecting it in core or under flesh with a large gauge and other reasons that I can't remember right now. Others suggesting mixing with DSMO but seems dangerous?

So each step of the biosynthesis to mescaline is helped by us

From tyrosine- Tyrosine hydroxylase

TH upregulated by low dose aspirin, or possibly even using black pepper to increase iron and manganese which are what regulate or initiate Tyrosine hydroxylase.

For example, the treatment of potato plants with abscisic acid (ABA) can increase the activity of DD, and TH; ultraviolet exposure increased the activity of DD; drought increased the activity of TH and DD; low-temperatures can reduce the activity of DD; and dark treatment and red light treatment can inhibit the activity of TH, and DD.1

aspirin .36g/L is 2mm this is for foliar spray (1g per 3L) calculated from some papers; also can be used to increase cold tolerance (the aspirin)

Black peppers to the soil would also help provide more iron and manganese which both up regulate TH process. I think peperine might help but can't remember any specific info. It also works as a pesticide.


So from here we have dopa

from dopa we have seen the results from keeping the cactus cuttings in the dark. My research leads me to believe that it is using NAD+ process of converting malate acid to decarboxylose the dopa. Since the cactus isn't getting light it isn't converting the malate into starch to grow however I don't believe that cacti are 100% photo-dependent and actually follow circadian rhythm. So the process of pep-NAD+ cycles happen but dopa will be used instead of malate acid in this case from lack of light might take a few days. Another way would be placing it in a closed environment with lots of KOH so that it absorbs all the CO2 also impeding the CAM process and can be left in the light. Seems harder though. So covering the section to be harvested with soil or another material to impeed light is the step to take.
the dark treatment in potato would inhibit this but since in CAM I believe it is the opposite.

During the 'dark treatment' a more likely reason may just be due to the 3 months of drought. Drought increases TH and DD activity. High light, high temperatures and drought all activate the same enzymes in many other plants. With my theory the best time to harvest would be late summer after 1-2 months drought period in full sun and high temps... then 'curing' the cuttings with a bundle of apples for a month (random time everything needs testing) darkness is some plants actually inhibit TH and DD but does increase content in others


I skipped dopamine I believe since process is hydrosis rewatering is needed? I'm unsure on the process to facilitate this conversion.


Now we are at 3,4,5-trihydroxy-B-phenethylamine

from here ethylene and methylene is required to go to mescaline

from the stress of lack of water or darkness or both... ethylene would be produced on its own by the cactus however we could increase this by keeping it in a small container where the ethylene couldn't be released and further increase the concentration.
We could also add apples or bananas that release ethylene similar to how people add them to unripened tomato to accelerate the process. The methylene I couldn't find a safe or common source for so allow the cactus to produce its own thru whatever process is uses. I think adding ethylene to cuttings that are being 'aged' has most possibility to have favorable results... not exactly more mescaline over 3 months dry but short time to reach the same values.


and the end result would be more? MESCALINE.


Now this is all theoretical however scientifically viable, low cost, and easy to test.

I also suggest doing this during warmer months as the enzymes responsible for these actions are more active in warmer temperatures. We tend to believe that cold helps but there are papers showing that the most accumulation of alkaloids is in hot days and hot nights vs cooler days and nights in other papers.





Some mentioned that nitrogen or nutrients favor alkaloid production and this is true with most plants and likely true even with cacti but may not be true with mescaline in specific. There are papers that show little or no extra nutrients had higher concentrations of certain alkaloids then those wit more fertilizer. Depends on the alkaloid and plant.

However keep in mind that almost all the papers I read the most alkaloids were in the plants with heavy fertilization since it had the highest amount of biomass the lower concentration was nullified and surpassed. Now you can take this as a sign that fertilizing is best but depends on your conditions. If you can fertilize great but if you are planting in remote location or funds are tight (large collection costs maybe too much for some) also be aware that fertilized plants are not always to strongest plant as far as pests and other conditions.


So even with over fed and not stressed cacti the idea of this would be to cure the cuttings in a warm location with apples or bananas to maximize mescaline conversion. Having previously used aspirin to induce stress and also up-regulate uptakes and processes of enzymes. Warm rather than cold temps since enzymes function best in warmer temps and storing in area with no light to utilize the cam process.

ABA hormone can also be applied externally and amounts tested for toxicity and effective but just stressing the plant will cause the plant to produce it.



TLDR: apply aspirin to cactus before cutting... when 'curing the cutting' in the dark add a bundle of apples or bananas.
 
IDK why I can't read the reply but I read it earlier... agreed getting a quality cuttings or even growing a few from seeds and growing them in the ground for a few years will easily provide more than enough content.

The thing is many buy cuttings due to lack of space or region/temps. Clones and prices are getting out of hand IMO cause they were 20 dollars per foot years ago when I was more active now prices are much higher.

So assuming you want to start off with less material (higher concentration) so you can use less material to extract if you choose to go that route or even consume less I think this would be helpful...

This could all be wrong and this is all pointless but since most now suggest dark stressing for 3 months I thought it would be interesting to figure out if its the dark or the drought and also if ethylene helps reduce the time needed to convert to mescaline.

BTW if it was a MOD that 'censored' you can leave this thread open as I think all discussion is fair since I don't actually have any proof.
 
Sorry Modern - on rereading I felt the comment, made in jest, was a bit in appropriate so it was deleted by me, not mod censorship :) You're right, it is a luxury to have the garden space and climate to grow out a great plant that is known to be rich in content. I am trying a project with a guy here who is a master cactus (esp tricho's) grower and trying to identify plants with good mesc content. He has never gone beyond growing so we are testing plants people have said to him are 'strong'. Unfortunately the subjective 'strength' (usually via teas) does not necessarily correspnd with mescaline content.

It seems to me there is huge variation in each cultivar and most people have no idea what's in the plant. They judge 'strong' from 'weak' in drinking teas and other sorts of 'semi' extractions (resin) but no-one takes the time to actually test the mesc content per se.

IME when you find a good one it is a consistent producer and doesn't much depend on soil/position circumstances or nutrition.
 
I understand your rational... but why not do a minimal action to possible even 'double' the content like dark stressing that has been proven over 3 month to increase mescaline.


More content from same material without much 'work' even drought conditions would help before harvesting.
Now a good producer will produce regardless of conditions AGREED but will not be consistent if one is grown in conditions that don't allow the conversations and accumulation of mescaline vs another. 1 kg of clone x for me may result in very different amount of mescaline then 1 kg of clone x for you.

Also going back on clones that are 'strong' but not high in mescaline maybe we have conditions like psychotria alba and viridis where alba is void of DMT but is active? Mescaline is undoubtedly the main active in trichocereus however the combination of the other alkaloids unactive alone may bring an experience that is psychoactive.

My idea is just a way to possible explain why the 3 month stress period works (either from actual darkness or maybe the 3 month drought period) also adding ethylene via apples or hell even 'smoking' with wood might work to accelerate this process to reduce the 3 month baseline we have tested.
 
So I ended up with goo however at a small scale experiment using 220 grams fresh split vertically to reduce any variable on alkaloid location (maybe played a role) There was a large difference in the two extractions of a control and ethylene.

The control at 3.8g dry had almost no mescaline precipitate after freezing the iso with the goo. While the experiment had noticeable amount of precipitate easily 10x in volume. I'm going to say that it was human error since the difference is massive so I'll have to retry this experiment with larger starting material.

The experiment with 12 days exposed to calcium carbide and water to release a small amount of acetylene which in other plants is converted to ethylene by the plants. So in theory the same as using a few bananas or apples.
 
After adding warm 99% iso and filtering the precipitate which didn't dissolve I'm freezing whatever passed with the iso so maybe a little more content.

The weight of the precipitate came out to .038g from the 4.188g starting material so .9% citate where the other half of the cactus had almost none which was the control.

This extraction I'm gonna just ignore the results since I did have a few errors and likely losses but there was a difference with the control and ethylene so I will repeat this in the future. I'll be grinding the starting material much better and also 'dry' the ethyl acetate to hopefully prevent the goo from forming.
 
Thanks for that reply as it made me think of possible reasons why my control was so incredibly low yeild.

Yes I think any ethylene suppressant would reduce or stop mescaline formation. 1-methycyclopropene is used to prolong the lifespan of fruits post harvest and makes me rethink the idea of aspirin to increase mescaline content as well. There are different steps in the biosynthesis of mescaline so despite Salicylic acid (SA) reducing/delaying Ethylene production it will increase other chemicals that are used in the formation much earlier on in the biosynthesis.

The control and the ethylene experiment cutting have both been exposed to GA3 which has an antagonist effect and counters ethylene effects on plants and senescence of fruits.

Using 1mcp may prove beneficial during the growth cycle to reduce negative effects of stressors and lead to better growth similar to the idea of aspirin but as the final stage' for increased mescaline biosynthesis I'm pretty sure it'll hinder the mescaline formation.
 
Thanks for your thoughts; of course, 1-methylcyclopropene isn't exactly otc-friendly so it's good to see that you've considered effects of other compounds that may act in a similar manner. Have you collated this information into a coherent diagram? And do you have any links to good resources on these matters?
 
I joined a lot of different papers and made some assumptions with my limited understanding following the mescaline biosynthesis that was shown in a paper. There are two different pathways 1 is lophophora specific
if I remember correctly.

From there I tried to understand each step in the biosynthesis and tried to see what can be used to induce or up regulate those pathways/enzymes. With some plants there is actually down regulation using the same chemicals/stressors.

Everything is theoretical so slowly I'll be testing each to see the influence it has and hopefully one day I'll be able to try the entire series of up regulation in order to see if there is a 'genetic limit'

This will be a multiyear thing for me since it takes a while to get starting material from seed but should start speeding up soon since I'm at 2 year old seedlings.

BTW I've seen that trichocereus needs to be 5 years old to be active but my seedlings were 1y8m old
 
Back
Top Bottom