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Intense negative body load from Mescaline Sulfate?

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H

HolderChert

Rising Star
Does anyone else experience this? I've been really looking forward to trying this one as I grew up reading Huxley's work and it really was kind of a catalyst for my interest in this realm. Pretty upsetting to have such a difficult introduction. The experience was mentally very light, as I only took 100mg, not challenging in the least. But physically I was in hell.

I'm a pretty healthy person, drink lots of water, and eat a balanced diet and get regular exercise.

Just before COVID I extracted some SS02 cuttings from the garden and got a yield corresponding to that which can be found on the forums here in the Cactus Analysis thread. The sulfate method I used was very similar to DG's but with a more pure sulfuric acid reagent. The result was a very pure looking coating of long M sulfate needles inside of the crystalization beaker. This product was then washed twice with ice cold acetone (Dried with MgSO4). I've got a degree in chemistry (BS) and graduate experience, and as far as I can tell my product was decently pure.

I say this to (maybe) rule out the possibility of contaminants being the cause. Also, even if it were a less pure extraction, I don't believe any contaminants or side products of these simple reactions could cause hours of negative side effects (such as sulfuric contamination etc).

Can anyone shed some light on this for me? Is the mescaline body load worse than that of LSD or Mushrooms for anyone else? Even 200ug LSD didn't have this kind of body load for me...

Any advice or opinions would be much appreciated

Best, HC
 
From all the three classical psyhedelics (mescaline, psilocybin and LSD) I get the most unwanted side effects from mescaline. The only mescaline I've tried is mescaline hcl that I've extracted myself. I also tried some good san pedro tea (made from the same cacti material as my mescaline hcl). There was no difference in main negative side effects when I've compared the two experiences. Therefore my conclusion is that mescaline is the main agent in producing the wonderful effects and the unwanted side effects as well. For example I get heavy migranes and disrupted serotonin system after a mescaline experience. Not pleasant at all.
 
That's quite normal, mescaline is known for causing unpleasant body load in some people. Much worse than that of mushrooms.
This property of even pure substance was recognized and mentioned in early reports from western psychonauts and was considered its big disadvantage.

As far as I know Huxley never repeated his mescaline experience and continued his explorations with acid.

What was also very early recognized (and is also my experience) was that there are some people who can tolerate mescaline quite well and some people who cannot.

Psychedelic enthusiasts (as was Huxley and lot of people on internet forums) tend to ignore it.
There are lot of reports on the net about mysterious impurities of extracted mescaline, which should be washed out to obtain pure experience. Of course, there are some impurities, but most of the unpleasantness is caused by combination of mescaline itself and specific body of the user.
 
Hey, welcome to the forum.

Yeah, as other's said, mescaline can tend to have quite a bit of body load; this is the case whether or not you have extracted/synthetic material, tea, or cactus. There are different variables at play though, and there are ways to attenuate or eliminate the negatives; how exactly to do this I cannot tell you as I haven't taken any (psychedelic) in years, and never played with optimizing my stomach on the things I took (I just took them and dealt with what happened).

Mescaline (and other psychedelics as far as I can tell) tends to have a much greater body load during the ascension and early phases of the experience. Many people throw-up before the effects have fully manifested and this tends to help in many cases.

I would look up Cosmiclions nausea shot; I haven't taken it but some people have sworn by it. I have used cannabis during the early part of the trip, and this has helped greatly, although it may not be ideal for some ( I would not want to use cannabis with mescaline now I don't think). The rate at which you consume the mescaline can effect outcome too. Many people (including me) take the dose in staggered amounts. Mescaline comes on very slow so this is not a problem and tend to help the kick to the gut.


I would not give up on this one. It is one of the best, if not the best, psychedelic in terms of how easy going, gentle, euphoric, and empathic it tends to be. It's the only substance I've never had a "bad" time on.
 
Mescaline is for sure harder on the body for myself, compared to psilocybin, LSD or DMT.

For myself, I experience a lot of constriction in my muscles at times on cacti and extracts, but where it bothers me seems to be my large intestine and all the muscles through my pelvis. It seems at times to make my cramping, burning etc worse from arthritis, concentrated in that area which is already sensitive. To add to this, this discomfort has lasted well over 24 hours before and more or less ruined whatever afterglow I would have.

Whats going on here for me, is that I have a hypertonic pelvis due to arthritis, and the muscle tightness through my pelvis feels like a lot of pressure and tension. I assume many people who experience gastric discomfort on different 5ht psychedelics are experiencing in part effects of constriction in the gut. It will at least make some people feel very bloated.

I really enjoy mescaline but hot baths and some kind of muscle relaxant are necessary for me to come down. I also grind my teeth and clench my jaw more on mescaline, similar to but less than MDMA. It just causes some body tension.

I have had to resort to advil to stop the cramping after a cactus trip.

It stops me from consuming my entire garden, anyway.
 
@HolderChert

Yeah mescaline can have a strong bodyload. Strong waves can come over you, moreso than any of the other classical psychedelics. Ime in the higher dosage realms this can become one of the predominat aspects of the experience [though not always], unless there's breakthrough [if that's desired] - which can be fairly rough [the entry & re-entry].

Cleaned up hcl xtals lessens a bit of it ime, though it's still there for me, though in the higher dosages most if not all of this goes out the window and it's ever-apparent, no matter how well things are cleaned up.

One thing I've found over the years that's personally helped is to slow the breath [& focus] despite everythig internal/external happening to me. Close eyes, big long deep breath in, smile, hold for a brief moment, out slow, repeat.

The bodyload/rushing always seemed to be in tandem/tied with my breath [and the overall intensity of it], and it also seemed to be tied in with the visual aspect as it unfolds - both closed & open-eye, at least that's how it's appeared to me over the years. Though this sort've connection happens with all the other classical psychedelics also, so this isn't something entirely related to mescaline.

Focusing attention behind the eyes, honest long-standing focus, don't let it up. Breathe. Sit with it. Repeat, repeat.

Might seem super redundant and dry, though sometime's it's the most barebones, simplest things that can give some of the best results. It's easy to overlook the breath.

Comfortable headphones and specific sets of music have always helped me quite alot in dealing with w/e may come.

Sit up erect, back straight, stretch long and wide, stand up, stretch some more, long and wide. Maybe take a few seconds walk to another area of your tripping space if you're able to, change things up, dance a little, smile. Fresh eyes, new environment, new potential direction for the trip - these things can help sometimes though not always.

Hope this helps you in some sense.



** Also for me the rushing/bodyload, I've more or elss always treated it as part of the experience, so I really never turned myself away from it. Just always accepted it mostly ,as it's not permanent and would eventually subside into the rest of the experience. The sort've 'pay the ticket to take the ride' sort've deal - which mescaline can certainly have you do.
 
In my explorations with both cactus tea and cactus extracts (mescaline acetate) the body load is more than with other psychedelics and is comparable to the feeling of having the flu. All my joints ache and the inevitable purge only gives some relief to my suffering stomach. Eating is out of the question until near the very end. The end and the following day of most of my trips is usually spent nursing a migraine headache. As mentioned earlier in this thread, focusing on breathing helps as does periodic stretching. I accept the body load as part of the process, more body load seems to correlate with a stronger dose of mescaline, and when I get a good, therapeutic dose of mescaline it is all totally worth it. I've not found anything more useful than mescaline for inner work.

In comparison to my two recent ~200 ug LSD trips, the gut does cramp some (direct evidence for the gut-brain connection!) as well as other muscles, but not to the same degree. A few hours in and I can eat with LSD, which is unthinkable with mescaline.

Good luck with your explorations, HolderChert, I'm envious of your chemistry knowledge!
 
HolderChert what sort of bodyload issues did you have? Was it nausea or muscle tension or something else? I tried SS02 before and remember feeling very cold and heavy during that trip. There was both nausea and muscle tension during that one. But its not uncommon to feel that way during a cactus trip, especially with Bridgesii or with higher doses in general. Sometimes it comes with the territory with cactus. Its more of a whole body experience compared to mushrooms or LSD. But usually at lower doses the negative bodyload issues are not too bad. Vasoconstriction is the one that I really dislike when it occurs. When the vasoconstriction is mild its not that bad. But when it gets stronger then it can feel like something might be wrong medically, and who wants to feel that way while tripping!
 
Hello everyone,

Wow, thank you for all the love and insight. It sounds like I may not be alone in this experience. A lot of you have suggested remedies and I will look into all of them, your efforts are very appreciated.

@Triglav:

This is what I was wondering, and it sounds like this may just be the case from reading the responses here. It is interesting that it is so common to hear how gentle the experience is. For me this was not the case, and both of my experiences (I've had another before with strong cactus tea) were less 'gentle' than other classical psychedelics. Yes, the mind is less effected than with the others, but the body poses its own challenges.

@doubledog:

I was not aware of this I was under the impression that he went on to continue his mescaline research, very interesting to think about. I will likely try again and may end up down a similar path. I'm hard pressed to believe that any impurities in a sample clear/white crystalline M Sulfate should be so insignificant as to now pose an issue. These reaction we use for extracting DMT and M are very predictable and not likely to create extremely bioactive side products. Any such impurities would have to originate from the cactus itself, and would likely be alkaloids that would/could be extracted and purified along with the M. From what I understand, sulfate crystalization is relatively selective in this case.

@Spiralout:

You say: "I would not give up on this one. It is one of the best, if not the best, psychedelic in terms of how easy going, gentle, euphoric, and empathic it tends to be. It's the only substance I've never had a "bad" time on."

This is such a common sentiment I can't help but this I'm missing out. This is exactly why I've posted my question. I can't help but notice how many people share this sentiment, and it was a large part of why I was inspired to explore M. Actually the nausea was present but not a huge issue. It was more of a "whole body" feeling. Like being uncomfortably tickled from the inside out.

@jamie:

Thank you for your input I will keep your experience in mind. I agree I think it has something to do with vasoconstriction. I've been told that Magnesium and L-Argenine may be of some benefit for relieving such symptoms.

@Tatt

Really enjoyed your comment Tatt, and I have to say I deeply align with your perspective. This is also the general mood I try to bring to every experience. I've gained more practice in unacceptance from these experiences than I could ever show my gratitude for in this lifetime. I have also noticed the tie between body load and breath as you mention, and have been able to ease more than one rough experience through some calm breathing awareness practice. This experience is certainly an outlier for me. It may be that I have just not reached that level of practice yet. Although I did only consumed 100mg, what Is generally expected to be a very light experience. This is the first time with any psychedelic where I felt that something was genuinely 'wrong'. As you have kind of hinted at, that very well may be a projection of my mind. Hopefully I'm not being naive when I say, something was certainly 'different' for me this time.

@curious Seeker:

This has been my experience as well. I usually benefit from a meal at some point during a long trip, even if I generally feel a little weirded out by eating. With mescaline I was totally unable to eat for 12 hours +. I really wouldn't mind this, or other 'side effects', but for me so far they have been extremely disproportionate to the benefits of the experience and very distracting for me. My first experience was with tea and it was a very strong brew made from around 15 sections of "Penis Cactus" which ended up being very intense to say the least. I vomited multiple time but was otherwise unaware of my body. Maybe, for me personally, this is the type of experience I need to aim for with mescaline but after this last run I am hesitant. I can't help but think I made a mistake by extracting the cactus rather than making a brew. Im left wondering if the body load was lessened by some sort of entourage effect due to the presence of other alkaloids in the plant.

@Grey Fox

Thank you for reminding me to clarify these symptoms. Some of the feelings we're very much in line with the classical psychedelics but more intense. I felt very cold (common for me) and had a tight feeling in my stomach for the first 4 or 5 hours (common with mescaline?). The body load developed into this intense 'tickling' almost like full body restless legs syndrome. Usually with LSD I can "feel" my skin on my body so to say, and it can get pretty intense but it's nothing like this. With mushrooms I feel like of 'wet' and it is similar to the LSD experience. With M it was more like I could feel something crawling around in between my skin and my muscle, and inside the marrow of my bones in a very ticklish manner. It was very surprising to say the least as I only took a low dose (as you mention), and other aspect of the experience were very very light almost sub-perceptual.

Thank you all for your input! This has been an enlightening conversation and I will certainly keep all of this in mind. I may sit on it and try again in a few months. It would be a shame to waste all this cactus! I set myself up imagining I would thoroughly enjoy the experience, and would probably want some in reserve.

Thank you all again.

Much love, HC
 
Man... I have the same issue. I haven't been able to overcome it. It's a shame because I wanted to love it the way others do, and I tried all the recommendations given here and elsewhere. It just isn't for me I guess. I don't know why, but natural vasodilators did not help, nor did ginger, nor did stretching/breathing/set and setting changes. The higher the dose goes, the worse these effects are for me. The high doses are where the visual and psychedelic experiences of this medicine shines, but the physical discomfort overshadows these benefits and makes the experience truly unpalatable for me.
Interestingly as well- I have never had deep introspection with this medicine. "The voice" and connection to source are also not there for me at all. It seems empty and all I am left with is discomfort.

I really wanted to love it, but as tea, extract, any form, it is always the same.

I guess it's tryptamines for this human meat sack over phens. Seems unfortunately simple as that at this point.

100% open to explanations and suggestions though.
 
@HolderChert you really nailed the explanation of the sensations and experience I have with the medicine unlike anyone else. In some other, more just version of this world I'd ask to put our heads together and find out what is common about our body types that leads us to experience it this way vs all the glowing reports others seem to have. Alas, here we are, anons out of necessity and safety. Someday may we be able to research consciousness medicine openly and safely- this I pray for.
 
Something that oughtn't to be overlooked is that the sheer amount of mescaline at active doses is more than any other psychedelic. I feel its structural similarity to noradrenaline has to play a role in the discomfort too (although I'm one of the fortunate ones, so far, where this has not been an issue).

I'm of the view (borne out by a handful of experiences) that the slower that the dose is taken, the smoother the ride. Slowly nibbling a length of potent cactus (spiralise it!) gave me my best experience to date. Quidding thin strips of fresh cactus appears to work well.

Perhaps s-l-o-w ingestion gives the body a chance to adjust. Whole cactus will also help keep magnesium and other nutrient levels up. Maybe I've just been lucky 🤷‍♂️
 
Slow or fast, it makes no difference to me. The stomach discomfort itself is more than manageable. I do notice a difference in that department when I split the dose up. The other effects as described by HolderChert are present no matter how slowly the dose is taken and are magnified as the dose increases. I think you are right that the sheer amount of alkaloids are having an effect here, as a "common" dose such as 666mg of citrate doesn't overwhelm me with discomfort in the same way a proper psychedelic dose does. Even 800mg is extremely uncomfortable to me, 1gram even more so, and the largest dose I've taken (1200mg) was a downright awful experience in terms of body load. Tea within the same estimated dose range has similar body load, although seems both more psychedelic and slightly more comfortable. Slightly more comfortable here though is still VERY uncomfortable.

Interesting your note @Transform that M is structurally similar to noradrenaline. Perhaps the answer lies somewhere in there and the manner in which my body type processes adrenaline?

Again, open to advise and opinions here. I would love to find a way to comfortably work with this medicine. But for now, my cactus garden will be for aesthetics only.
 
This may or may not be ok for you but I’ll throw it out there…. Some alcohol really helps to calm the jitters down during a mescaline come up and journey.

I don’t drink anymore because it became a problem for me but it used to stop my muscles from twitching when I was coming up on a big dose. These days I see it as part of the experience, there has to be an acceptance and letting go physically to the sensations, and then lots of twitching and flailing limbs if that’s what the medicine demands. I certainly feel mescaline throughout my body and nerves and I’ve always tried to close my eyes and imagine the molecule triggering an electrical charge through my cells as it takes hold. Usually by the peak I’m so out there it’s not the focus of my sensations anymore. But yeah, try adding some booze if your into it
 
The two times I tried mescaline it gave me a really unpleasant disoriented/agitated/groggy feeling, even at very low doses. Closest thing I can relate it to is the non-painful sensations accompanying a migraine, or that awful sickly feeling during/after a really long car ride.
 
Interesting thread. Anecdote with a million variables and a good sprinkling of subjectivity incoming:

The first time I took about 260mg of mescaline extracted from only the outer dried green flesh of a bridgesii, dry tek. The section I extracted from had had recently been acquired from a warmer climate. The resulting Mescaline HCl was also ground up and rinsed with ice cold IPA and acetone. I can't remember struggling with body load at all with that batch.

The second time I took the same dosage after a different extraction method. This was from a mix of cacti with portions grown abroad and at home, possibly even a mixture of the three common trichs but mostly bridgesii. This time it was all chopped up (the whole thing, even the spines), blended and boiled 3x, filtered, reduced and extracted. The final product was not washed with IPA or acetone this time. It was combined with some mescaline acetate which was extracted the same way. Final dose was equivalent of 260mg of mescaline HCl. When The resulting product finally kicked in long after ingestion (I must have eaten too much beforehand) it was bodyload city. The closed eye visual were also much stronger. It was almost as if I could see my own thoughts right in front of me. I was tired and stimulated all at once and it was uncomfortable but still a good trip.

I will only be extracting from individual cacti from now on and storing the product separately to test and compare. I definitely want to try the polar solvent washed drytek product again, just to see if this does actually make a difference.
 
I like the peaceful and grounding qualities of mescaline/San Pedro cactus, however it tends to give me serious headaches, going all the way back around 17 ago years when I first started getting into it, up until the winter before last, which was my last time taking a psychedelic dose. During that last trip, I took a low dose (maybe 0.5g) of cubensis mushrooms, which relieved the headache and amplified the psychedelic effects.
 
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