Irritability and sleep problems after pharma

[Jox]

Hi all,

Me and my husband have noticed that after our pharma night the following few days we feel irritable and for some reason nightts 3 and 4 we have difficulty falling asleep and restless sleep. We both do pharma in high doses.

What plant could help with this post farma phase. I was wondering if Kava Kava or Kratom may do?

If anybody has experience with these or some other plants please let me know. We have no interest in marijuana.

Thanks
Jox

 

[Vodsel]

I'm curious about what do you call "high doses", but here the question would be - have the symptoms appeared after any change in dosage, frequency or composition in your pharma experiences?

And for recovering sleep quality, I'd try melatonin (or 5-HTP if melatonin is not available) before unspecific drugs. Say, 5 mg at 9-10pm, go to bed before midnight.

 

[obliguhl]

I would not take any drug to help with this personaly after only 3 or 4 nights. Chances are, it'll settle on its own. These experiences are intense, possibly life changing. It seems plausible to me, that these side effects could occur.

 

[universecannon]

Well, what was the trip like?

 

[۩]

Sometimes I find myself abnormally irritable the day after eating harmalas or syrian rue. I have never felt this before from caapi and I don't understand why that would be as I don't believe the vine holds any sort of significance over the seeds or extracted compounds. Something I have noticed but haven't quite put my finger on.

I find that I am very awake after using all forms of harmalas like you described. Needing less sleep, and finding going to sleep a little more difficult. Not a problem for me because I eat cannabis. Kava Kava sounds like it would be just the thing!

 

[jamie]

skullcap might help you with the sleeping.

This is normal for me when I take really large doses of harmalas, which you do.

 

[Warrior]

Hey Jox, I've been following your posts a little. You seem like an interesting being living an interesting life. I think we would get along well in the material world.

That said, I've been thinking about your thread about the difficult experiences and I've been meaning to share my thoughts. I have also had a few difficult experiences that have allowed me to work through tremendous emotional barriers in my life. Sometimes going in I feel like there is a 50/50 chance of having a difficult experience. And reporting that here seems to get a wave of replies that are more protective to the group than of helping the one person that is working through stuff (I love the community here, for the record--just needed to be said). I think the reason why everyone jumps on the 'take time off' bandwagon so quickly is because there is a fear of bad press. There's some voodoo with this drug, and promoting tough experiences is kinda weird in our current legal climate. No one wants to put bad DMT-related stories out into the world if we can help it. But, digressing back to your original question again... We want to promote and encourage the empowering stories, and help people follow that path.

Starting around December, I had some new stressors come up in my life that were very social in nature--the kinds of pressures you can't avoid because they are attached to friends and family. I noticed my Aya trips became less visual, and even the best journeys were riddled with difficult spots, and coming out of it after the peak left me in an inconsistent state. Sometimes I'd feel even more stressed and think to myself "just meditate and let the effects pass." But really, even after hours and days passed, I would still feel edgy. Diving back into the abyss again was a gamble every time as to how it might make me feel afterwards, so that wasn't going to help my mild/moderate, transient insomnia.

But what HAS help me tremendously has been microdosing. Plan on taking a break from breaking through, and try a couple of weeks of a dose that is so low you barely feel anything. Take the kind of dose that at the 60-90 minute mark you can feel an energy change if you sit still and meditate, but otherwise don't feel anything (and can go about your normal day as if it was exactly that). I've found that this has an emotional centering property that is very powerful. Take the time with microdosing to examine emotions that arise, and suddenly you find yourself going about your daily life processing things you would otherwise ignore--in real time--as if your life becomes a walking therapy session. It's a profound thing that is different from the full experience because you aren't jacked out of this reality and back again. It's very gentle. It allows for days to come to a natural closing point, and allows me to sleep in the comfort of my own body, bed, and home without turning to something else.

I've found that if I let these feelings guide my life journey, I remain centered. I sleep better, I feel better, I get along with people better, and my journeys are deeper and more meaningful. If I try to force a journey, then I end up in these conflicted states after. But processing them with microdosing (without breaking through) brings me back to center in an accelerated manner.

My two cents.

Love and respect to you, Jox.

 

[Jox]

Hi all and thank you for your responses,

@ Vodsel

It so hard for me to know in mg what is high dose since I don't go for super clean extractions, and mimosa I do in cold brew, so it is half way pharma, but in # it is 600 mg of harmalas and 2g of MHRB, the inner root bark, in phosphoric acid ph 2. The physical manifestation of high doses is :

- not being able to open the eyes for two hours, and not able to move much in the bed.

Melatonin sounds like a good idea.

@ oliguhl

I was to tell you that it is not a big deal BUT, just 3 days ago we did a treatment, and the 2nd night we took 2,5 g of diazepam and still didn't get good sleep, so it is troubling.

@ House

Hmmm can't remember for caapi, and now we do rue, but price wise We can't go back to caapi.

I think Kava sounds perfect, trying to see if I can get it in India where I am now. Do you know the doses for Kava?

@ universecannon

Are you refering to my previous post of bad trips, or asking in general, in the former case the sleepnessles and irritability is not related to the hyperspace time.

@jamie

I don't know about this plant but I will look into it.

@ Warrior

You bring a lots of interesting points, in your first paragraph you make a lots of sense regarding a bad press for DMT. I think there is a lot to be said in this regard, I will elaborate a new entry from the direction you pointed out.

I haven't realised that there may be interest regarding my work with bad trips, actually I said nothing of how I work with them, and how they evolved over time, but I will make report regarding this aspect.

And in this line, it surprised me how much response I got in this thread from senior members, which confirms your statement of bad press.

Your second advise is also very interesting: we have been too focused on high end experience since half way trips are actually very difficult - one is not in hyperspace nor in common mind and I think it is even worst than the difficult trips. But it will take me quite some time to find the # for micro dosing. I think it can be very usefull to do, let's say 3 Saturdays of it and one full flood on the 4th week. I will work on this and let you know how it goes.

Best to all
Jox

 

[۩]

kava kava preparation - Other Psychoactives - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Best Kava Kava recipe around!^ It's 1 tablespoon minimum per person.
Do not mix with harmalas. Only use Kava Kava the day after, not the day of. Mixing these two can lead to serotonin syndrome.

 

[Jox]

Kava Kava sounds interesting, just reading now it's new to me.

Anybody can recomend seller. I thimk it's OK to ask since it is legal.

Thanks

 

[Rabbit]

My pet rabbit shares many of the same side effects from harmala that you describe here.

Basically, harmala itself (aside from the nausea and nasty side effects) generally makes him feel pretty freaking good while on it. However, when the blood-harmala levels begin to drop, the rabbit begins to feel irritable, drained, and just generally not very good. The symptoms usually include a mild malaise, similar to that experienced with a cold (milder than that though, without cold symptoms.)

Sleep is also notably affected for the rabbit. While the harmala is still in his system at all, sleep is virtually impossible--thus, the rabbit doses, well-rested, at least 8 hours in advance of bedtime. Even then, it can come difficult, and for the rabbit, one of the most notorious symptoms of post-harmala sleep is NIGHTMARES.

I found feeding my rabbit magnesium aids with some of the irritability. B12 and caffeine will help with lack of energy, though careful with caffeine, as it itself can cause irritability. Haven't tried Kava specifically for this. Alcohol seems to help a bit, in moderation. As can cannabis (please don't call animal control on me...) I don't recommend either for sleep though, as they can lighten sleep which is the opposite of what you need. Would stick to naturals for sleep, like Melatonin 1hr before your normal bedtime. Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is an option, but my rabbit dislikes that substance and thus avoids it.

Remember that harmala is an MAOI, and mixing it with certain drugs is dangerous. I recommend not taking anything before 8 hours post-harmala (more if you dosed high), and choosing carefully afterwards. Stay away from SSRI's (including St Johns Wort.) Remember too that harmala can put a strain on your body, so following it with toxins like alcohol or Kava (which can harm the liver) may not be the best move.

Ultimately the best way I've found to get back in balance is to take as little as possible, and eat a nice meal. If you went into the experience well-rested, come out 8 hours later, eat a nice healthy (but filling) meal, drink some green tea (caffeine/theanine), go about your day, and hit the hay around a normal time, your side effects will be minimized, and you might not need to take anything at all.

Hope this info passed to me helps you. Good luck in your travels.

 

[tregar]

Post #5 above said:

Sometimes I find myself abnormally irritable the day after eating harmalas or syrian rue. I have never felt this before from caapi

I completely agree with this statement. This topic comes up now and again.

It's the harmaline in the rue, harmaline is a GABA agonist (valium like effects), stoning and very sleepy like, once it wears off, you get the opposite effect, that is irritability and wakefulness, can't stand harmaline because of this, harmine and thh which is what is mostly in caapi brews & extracts have no GABA interactions, thus no rebound GABA symptoms. Love caapi but can't stand rue extracts personally. Even seen lab tested caapi extracts out there which have zero harmaline. Some people are quite sensitive to harmaline aftereffects, while others not so much -- these type people do just fine with rue extracts.

As am very sensitive to GABA agonist, it takes me several days to get back to normal sleep after a rue extract high in harmaline, but with caapi, I'm sleeping normally the next night, esp with caapi brews or caapi extracts that contain only harmine & thh, with only trace or zero amounts of harmaline. Many Mestizos (head brewers) of the Santo Daime have learned how to brew caapi so that it contains only harmine & THH over time, this can be seen by looking at this study on page 2, notice no harmaline in all the brews prepared by the Santo Daime:

Callaway, James C. (June 2005). "Various alkaloid profiles in decoctions of Banisteriopsis caapi" (PDF). Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 37 (2): 151–5. doi:10.1080/02791072.2005.10399796. ISSN 0279-1072. PMID 16149328. Retrieved 2012-08-10.

See page 2 of study, entries 22 thru 25 and entries 28 & 29 by Shuar Indians (no harmaline in their brews due to extended brewing time):

http://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/various%20alkaloid%20profiles%20in%20aya%20decoction.pdf

Also from Naranjo (1967):

Harmaline produced more lethargy and withdrawal than harmine but both caused visual changes.

Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout

Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants & analogs by Keeper of the Trout (full text) title page

www.erowid.org

Benefits of Caapi:

Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout

Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants & analogs by Keeper of the Trout (full text) title page

www.erowid.org

 

[jamie]

"harmine and thh which is what is mostly in caapi brews & extracts have no GABA interactions"

Source?

Harmine, harmane, and harmalol all have GABA activity afaik.

The subjective after effects of vine and rue are the same for me.

 

[chocobeastie]

It sounds to me like you are dosing the harmalas unecessarily high and that may be affecting your brain chemistry.

Remember, when you knock out all these MAO's, you are preventing your body from degrading all these amine neurotransmitters, not just DMT, and there may be many more than just dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin, an excess or imbalance of, which might be affecting your sleep patterns.

 

[some one]

I get the same from using Harmala extract (from syrian rue).

Especially combined with shrooms. First is the shroom trip, when that settles the harmala body load vibe freq starts. This feels very good, healing. But then it keeps on going and going. At one point the body buzz feels a bit too forced, artificial, non natural. Until I feel irritated by it. It lasts longer than 12 hours and I find it hard to sleep. Next two days I still feel a bit off.

Similar when combined harmala extract with oral DMT. Leaves you feeling more confused and less grounded compared to Caapi. So I figured why not try Caapi tea (without DMT) to stop the harmala after effects? I found out this works very well! Makes sense as Caapi has harmala /harmaline in it which other plant elements seems to be able to block out /reduce in potency.

Hope this helps.

And yes 600 mg harmalas sounds way too high. Try 100-150.

 

[FLeP]

Whoa, that is a lot of harmalallamas. :lol:

Pretty sure that's one of your culprits. I quite like microdosing, i.e. smoking a little changa in a joint, especially early in the day. Can leave you feeling quite good, for days in fact and sleep surely won't be a problem.

In the words of a great lawyer, "You took too much, man! Too much, too much!"

 

[starway6]

For sleep problems I take ..melatonin and ..Valarian Root extract capsuls.. it makes me get to sleep fast and have vivid dreams sometimes that become lucid...

Try valarian root capsuls...they will knock you out!:thumb_up:

 

[Final Incarnate]

Hi all,

Me and my husband have noticed that after our pharma night the following few days we feel irritable and for some reason nightts 3 and 4 we have difficulty falling asleep and restless sleep. We both do pharma in high doses.

What plant could help with this post farma phase. I was wondering if Kava Kava or Kratom may do?

If anybody has experience with these or some other plants please let me know. We have no interest in marijuana.

Thanks
Jox

Disclaimer im not a doctor nor license to give medical advise.

sleep wise, Melatonin and blue light blockers Uvex skyper , as well as F.Lux

google or go to ebay type Uvex skyper Glasses.

F.lux is a software free, f.lux

their really cheap and i wear mine at work their z87 so approved for safety glasses, coz the lighting at my job is really intense. consumer reports tested uvex skyper among other blue light blockers and found those 8-12 dollar glasses outperformed the others,


Could it possibly be Seratonin syndrome ? ( seratonin is daylight hormone keeps u awake and active. )


If SS is not the case , ive found a lot of times the irritability has to do with Human Realm being so limited and the end results of human Endeavors is Emotions where as in HyperSpace emotions seems like starting points or Strings to a Harp , which can alter Hyperspace, but this is just a theory.


EDIT

Saw the post read story, posted then saw others mention Melatonin, so yeah Melatonin is gr8 for sleep. can possibly have Endogenous DMT Trips, i dont have the equipment to test if it was endo DMT but only assuming it was coz of the eff. this tend to happen in high constant doses in dark environment.


Blue Lotus Extract works too for getting high quality sleep ( contains nuciferine ), but ive read something that nuciferine binds to dopamine receptor . here is a gr8 site for med research and tons on nuciferine

nuciferine - Search Results - PubMed

nuciferine - Search Results - PubMed

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

EDIT #2

Long-term use of psychedelic drugs is associated with differences in brain structure and personality in humans - PubMed

Psychedelic agents have a long history of use by humans for their capacity to induce profound modifications in perception, emotion and cognitive processes. Despite increasing knowledge of the neural mechanisms involved in the acute effects of these drugs, the impact of sustained psychedelic use...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov