Is death even possible?

[○]

Have you ever been put under with anesthesia for surgery? One moment you are counting out loud while being prepared for surgery. And the next momemt you are waking up in the recovery room. In between is a blank absence. I imagine that death is a similar blank absence that is permanent.

While being in a medically induced coma resembles the appearance of death to some degree, we've got to be careful not to equate being in a medically induced coma to being dead/death. We're speaking on two different things here.

Hyperspace does not prove that we somehow continue on after death. How could it? YOU ARE ALIVE WHILE EXPERIENCING THAT. Your brain is intact and functioning.

You're correct there, though due to alot of the phenomena experienced in the deeper states of DMT experience, there could certainly be intimations on the nature of mind/consciousness, reality, etc.

Have you worked with DMT at all? And if so, what were your experiences? And just because the experience is contained within a persons subjective experience - that doesn't make it 'not real' nor 'invalid'. To be fair our entire lives are predicated on our individual subjective experience, so is our waking state of consensus reality 'not real' or 'just chemicals firing'?

Just because the experience is quote on quote 'anecdotal' doesn't necessarily invalidate it. Like I said above.

If you want to talk objectively - our entire experience of life, consensus reality, etc is within the confines of our brain (or so it seems). We don't see the world 'outside of our brain', how could we? Our brain pieces together all the incoming sensory data, on top of the the constant modulation in the brain through neurotransmitters/hormones, etc, eventually piecing together a continuous, coherent, navigable model. Though, then enters consciousness on top of all this, so where exactly does consciousness fit or come from? I can't answer that.

So what is reality beyond our brains, beyond our barrier of our physical bodies and various senses?

When people say 'oh man the DMT experience is just inside your head', haha, to be fair our entire lives, like I said, are 'inside our heads'. I think folks need to think a little deeper on what they're actually saying. :d

You are not your brain. You are your body, one singular organic being. Any division is false. Consciousness is just a functioning of your singular organic unit. When the organism dies consciousness dies as well. Let us embrace reality.

Seems like your making some definitive statements here. "Not", "is just" "When the organism dies conscious dies as well". You've got to be careful talking in absolutes. Because at the end of the day none of us know definitively what consciousness exactly is nor comes from exactly, and we don't know what death is.

'Let us embrace reality', with that statement it seems you're trying to push your own feelings and views into direct focus. You do not have the answers. Why talk like this? Stay mindful of this.

 

[Crispycat]

If you're a strict materialist, you have to believe that matter can generate consciousness.

But if that indeed, is what is happening in our brains, then why couldn't it happen in other places as well? Why couldn't a planet be conscious, or a forest, or a universe?

Why couldn't consciousness be everywhere?

it can and will it just requires a very specific and rare combination of elements and events all in the same place to produce even the most basic organic life hence not every rock in space has life,
then frequent changes, environmental and predatory pressures over millions of years and generations to fuel evolution and mutations to the point a brain capable of consciousness at the human level is created.
Unfortunately at the point a human like consciousness is formed it sets about destroying any other competitor, hence we dont have other human like sentient beings eg neanderthal,denisovan etc and are hell bent on destroying anyone not from our country or tribe or that does not look like us

if we (humans) left this planet alone for a few million years im certain we would come back to another species at the level we are now, we would also find many species unchanged as they have reached a sort of dead end or found a perfect niece to exist in that does not require higher brain function

The possibility a rock could become conscious is doubtful as it requires multiple generations of mutations to develop and rocks dont reproduce nor do they generally contain highly complex combinations of elements most are not even conductive and all life as we know it requires electrical power.
Trees and plants have a far better chance of reaching sentience seeing as they actually reproduce and have a form of nervous system but they simply have not evolved along the lines insects reptiles birds or mammals have as their pace of life is far slower requires far less three dimensional movement awareness or calculations and their environmental pressures are not as heavily influenced by predatory action, as such plants have taken the defensive rout of producing toxins to deter predators which gifts us with all the toxic and beautiful substances

 

[Exitwound]

The possibility a rock could become conscious is doubtful as it requires multiple generations of mutations to develop and rocks dont reproduce nor do they generally contain highly complex combinations of elements most are not even conductive and all life as we know it requires electrical power.
Trees and plants have a far better chance of reaching sentience seeing as they actually reproduce and have a form of nervous system but they simply have not evolved along the lines insects reptiles birds or mammals have as their pace of life is far slower requires far less three dimensional movement awareness or calculations and their environmental pressures are not as heavily influenced by predatory action, as such plants have taken the defensive rout of producing toxins to deter predators which gifts us with all the toxic and beautiful substances

If something doesn't have pair of eyes and pair of hands and doesn't bite back when you kick it - it doesn't mean it isn't conscious. We have very short lifespan and even shorter attention span, so maybe we are too fast to notice something greater going on, the whole picture.

Point is: don't be unfair to rocks, we live on one, most of them are here for longer than we are, maybe they are just really patient or shy

 

[Crispycat]

If something doesn't have pair of eyes and pair of hands and doesn't bite back when you kick it - it doesn't mean it isn't conscious. We have very short lifespan and even shorter attention span, so maybe we are too fast to notice something greater going on, the whole picture.

Point is: don't be unfair to rocks, we live on one, most of them are here for longer than we are, maybe they are just really patient or shy

haha exactly why i said doubtful, im not ruling it out just saying they show none of the typical characteristics of what we currently classify as alive, sentient, self aware or conscious!
im fairly sure i have read that our early civilisations didnt classify trees as alive due to their lack of movement something any school child would laugh at you for today
what makes me laugh even more is a partial memory of a trip that showed me a group of entity's looking down on us questioning if we were sentient by their standards had a very zoo like feel to it only i was the caged animal :shock:

on a personal note while im clearly a "materialist" im under no illusion that we humans know everything and id love to believe that dmt showed us a spirit world or an after life a continuation of consciousness or even other civilisations and ive been very close to accepting thoes ideas on a personal level several times!
but im always brought back to the fact that we all see and experience very very different reality's and huge variation when under the dmt influence, even the same dose from the same extraction will send you to two completely different places there is no repeat-ability, and everything we rely on as humans daily is based in repeat-ability! imagine if your car only went forward one out of 100 times you put it into drive!
Now if everyone got the famous mckenna sequence of the "jewelled self dribbling basketballs" elves and could describe them in identical ways without ever having heard that quote i feel we would be on to something!
hopefully one day this forum will lead us to a way to access a shared experience that can be quantified through identical user experiences but till then sadly im stuck with believing the things we can prove repeatedly by anyone with the equipment to do so, over the one off very personal unrepeatable experiences

 

[dragonrider]

If you're a strict materialist, you have to believe that matter can generate consciousness.

But if that indeed, is what is happening in our brains, then why couldn't it happen in other places as well? Why couldn't a planet be conscious, or a forest, or a universe?

Why couldn't consciousness be everywhere?

it can and will it just requires a very specific and rare combination of elements and events all in the same place to produce even the most basic organic life hence not every rock in space has life,
then frequent changes, environmental and predatory pressures over millions of years and generations to fuel evolution and mutations to the point a brain capable of consciousness at the human level is created.
Unfortunately at the point a human like consciousness is formed it sets about destroying any other competitor, hence we dont have other human like sentient beings eg neanderthal,denisovan etc and are hell bent on destroying anyone not from our country or tribe or that does not look like us

if we (humans) left this planet alone for a few million years im certain we would come back to another species at the level we are now, we would also find many species unchanged as they have reached a sort of dead end or found a perfect niece to exist in that does not require higher brain function

The possibility a rock could become conscious is doubtful as it requires multiple generations of mutations to develop and rocks dont reproduce nor do they generally contain highly complex combinations of elements most are not even conductive and all life as we know it requires electrical power.
Trees and plants have a far better chance of reaching sentience seeing as they actually reproduce and have a form of nervous system but they simply have not evolved along the lines insects reptiles birds or mammals have as their pace of life is far slower requires far less three dimensional movement awareness or calculations and their environmental pressures are not as heavily influenced by predatory action, as such plants have taken the defensive rout of producing toxins to deter predators which gifts us with all the toxic and beautiful substances

I also tend to look at it that way, but my point was....you cannot simply dismiss the possibility of the existence of other forms of counsciousness outside of the brain or CNS. And if you realy would want to rule it out completely, you would have to, at some point, deny the possibility of matter generating counsciousness altoghether wich would obviously be self-defeating from a materialist point of view.

 

[Grey Fox]

I've never done DMT. But I am experienced with psychedelics and I've had numerous mushroom and cactus trips in the very high dose range. The closest I've come to "hyperspace" is on very high dose mushroom trips (10+ grams dried) where I've gone in and out of wakefulness while coming up to the peak. I've seen what seemed like grey aliens standing in front of me under a canopy of giant purple fractalled mushroom trees. It felt like they were trying to communicate something to me in their expression but I could not understand it and the vision ended soon after that. Many times on both mushrooms and cactus I've had the feeling that something beyond my visual field is watching me. It can be unnerving at times.

But ultimately I conclude that these visions and feelings originate within myself, under the influence of the substance. Cactus is my favorite psychedelic because, unlike lsd or mushrooms or even cannabis, the cactus brings incredible CLARITY that cuts through the confusion of human existence. Time and again the cactus has shown me that I am just an animal like all the others with a start and an end and that I must accept this. I've hunted and fished. I've slaughtered livestock. I've seen death before. I've held the hand of a young woman and watched the life leave her eyes as she succumbed to the cancer. That is our reality. We are no more than the other animals on this Earth. Only pride and desire builds us up to be more.

 

[Exitwound]

I was very much atheist, but after certain trips and much learning I think that god/universe is the best joker and hides from materialistic world perfectly in sight.

 

[Exitwound]

I've never done DMT.

Take 30-50mg properly vaped and then lets talk again.

Start with low doses first though.

 

[○]

I appreciate the reply Fox.

But ultimately I conclude that these visions and feelings originate within myself, under the influence of the substance.

And as I mentioned above - as dose the entirety of your perceived reality/subjective experience of consensus reality [if you're wanting to talk objectively, which ultimately this 'objectivity' rests within our subjective experience). So where does that leave us then?

The with[in]/with[out] dichotomy in this case becomes a moot point.

Time and again the cactus has shown me that I am just an animal like all the others with a start and an end and that I must accept this.

No issue here, though you've got to remember that this is your experience, and not the experience of others. If that's what you experienced and interpretd from it - then that's what you experienced and interpreted from it, but also it doesn't necessarily mean to discount the hundreds/thousands of others experiences.

Once again, other's experiences differ, as it should to some degree. We're all built differently to certain degrees, physiologically/neurologically speaking (i.e receptor desnity being one variable/example in this case).

I've hunted and fished. I've seen death before.

I've held the hand of a young woman and watched the life leave her eyes as she succumbed to the cancer.

As many thousands/millions etc have also (regarding seeing death).

Also I live in a state with one of the highest populations of white tails, and while I'm not a full fledged hunter by any stretch - I've rifle hunted twice now in the last 2 years during season. I've 'seen' death too. I've also saw my mothers mother die in the hospital due to MS.

Though , (and as I mentioned above regarding medically induced coma/death dichotomy) 'seeing' death from an outside perspective, and being the one experiencing death - these are two different things and states of experience that we're talking about here.

That is our reality.

What is? That fact that we see others die and will one day experience death ourselves? Well sure, lol.

We are no more than the other animals on this Earth. Only pride and desire builds us up to be more.

Once again you're speaking from your own direct experience (and not the experience of others). And also in these two statements you're still speaking in absolutes. You're speaking from your own opinions.

 

[Grey Fox]

We're all speaking from our own opinions here. I have no desire to try DMT at this time. I'm all in on cactus and moving forward in that direction. Best luck to you all.

 

[Grey Fox]

And my post was edited by a mod. Why fear differing opinions if you are confident in your own?

We're all speaking from our own opinions here. I have no desire to try DMT at this time. I'm all in on cactus and moving forward in that direction. Best luck to you all. Don't get lost too far in the fog of your dreams.

 

[FranLover]

And my post was edited by a mod. Why fear differing opinions if you are confident in your own?

We're all speaking from our own opinions here. I have no desire to try DMT at this time. I'm all in on cactus and moving forward in that direction. Best luck to you all. Don't get lost too far in the fog of your dreams.

lol your a bit of a troll and mean spirited=( which is sad causw this is my third reply and its sort of a waste of time.

Its easier to not smoke dmt and think u know something than to smoke dmt and be shocked. DMT made me vegetarian btw, so the lesson was; you live in the world u make. Its a cruel and sensless world if you are cruel and senseless. Its void of meaning if your heart sings no song, if you are dulled out by the hard edgedness of daily existence. You cant intelectualize your way into the glory of a Chopin piece; your heart has to be ready for it, live up to its exellence. The same in the world: its in the perspective of the fishermen and of the sheppard which pierces into the magic of life.

 

[○]

And my post was edited by a mod. Why fear differing opinions if you are confident in your own?

We're all speaking from our own opinions here. I have no desire to try DMT at this time. I'm all in on cactus and moving forward in that direction. Best luck to you all. Don't get lost too far in the fog of your dreams.

Yup, it was by me. There's no need to get in the last comment insinuating that people are necessarily going to get lost along their road of psychedelic usage, their own minds, lives or what have you. Why couldn't you have left it with 'best of luck to you all'? Why was the last comment after that needed? Was there any other way that that could've been worded or no? What was meant by that last statement?

And there's no fear of differeing opinions at all, as we all have them based on our own experiences.

 

[dragonrider]

I've never done DMT. But I am experienced with psychedelics and I've had numerous mushroom and cactus trips in the very high dose range. The closest I've come to "hyperspace" is on very high dose mushroom trips (10+ grams dried) where I've gone in and out of wakefulness while coming up to the peak. I've seen what seemed like grey aliens standing in front of me under a canopy of giant purple fractalled mushroom trees. It felt like they were trying to communicate something to me in their expression but I could not understand it and the vision ended soon after that. Many times on both mushrooms and cactus I've had the feeling that something beyond my visual field is watching me. It can be unnerving at times.

But ultimately I conclude that these visions and feelings originate within myself, under the influence of the substance. Cactus is my favorite psychedelic because, unlike lsd or mushrooms or even cannabis, the cactus brings incredible CLARITY that cuts through the confusion of human existence. Time and again the cactus has shown me that I am just an animal like all the others with a start and an end and that I must accept this. I've hunted and fished. I've slaughtered livestock. I've seen death before. I've held the hand of a young woman and watched the life leave her eyes as she succumbed to the cancer. That is our reality. We are no more than the other animals on this Earth. Only pride and desire builds us up to be more.

I agree that we are animals.

And also that it would be wise not to hold on to views that directly reject or contradict materialism. Not as long as you can't walk on water or bend spoons with only the power of your mind that is, wich is long enough for the most of us, i suppose.

I just don't think that materialism is a definite answer to these and other questions.
Religious beliefs surely don't answer anything either, and the more fixed and dogmatic they are, the less usefull they will prove to be. But the thing is....you just cannot rule out the existence of "other realities". The "real world" is always gonna be far stranger than we can even begin to imagine anyway.

I don't think it matters much though. Or at least, it should not realy matter. Because we will not ever find out in our lifetime.

But just allowing the experience of counsciousness to manifest whatever it does, without saying that "this is X", will probably get you as close to your answrs as you're ever gonna get.

 

[0_o]

Since most of the cells in my body are actually other organisms that vastly out number me... What am I?

What happens when a bacterium dies?
Why would it be any different for a human?

 

[abusedtoaster]

Edit:

"In the mists before the Beginning, Fate and Chance cast lots to decide whose the Game should be; and he that won strode through the mists to MĀNA-YOOD-SUSHĀĪ and said: "Now make gods for Me, for I have won the cast and the Game is to be Mine."

 

[Grey Fox]

The truest thing is probably to say that no one knows what happens after death. And we all choose our favorite guess.

But I feel pretty confident about this decision. Dont bet the farm on the other option.

 

[Achilles]

Lol ... I stopped receiving notifications on this post... didn’t realize it went that far haha... hopefully I didn’t cause to much of an uproar.. I just like pondering. Think what you will guy and we’ll do the same Peace brotha

 

[Loveall]

Good discussion. I enjoyed the part where FranLover becomes vegetarian

I personally think we don't really know and can only guess (as others have mentioned already). For a while (teens, twenties, and early thirties) my opinion was closer to Grey Fox's, but later in life that clarity of conviction faded and was replaced by a beautiful mystery.

 

[Cactus Man]

The ultimate truth of what we can know while still human about what is called "Death" is that the entire conception of what a person considers to be "Life" plays to every measure of what that person conceptualizes about "Death".

This fact alone regardless of the actual facets of the persons conception must be understood before going forward with such a slate of review of those facets.

After that we can break things down into subcategories of "Opposites" and "Extremes" in order to conclude what precisely it is and is not that which constitutes a persons personal definition of the "Life - Death" dynamic.

From there we can explore the objective overlaps observable in the manifestation and decomposition of different forms of "Matter" in order to compare and contrast those observations with the persons beliefs/understandings regarding "Death".

When we finally reach the point of doing all this within ourselves, using ourselves as the subject which we are observing and draw as many possibly conclusions as we can therefrom, then we are ready to ask OURSELVES whether we believe in "Death", with the knowledge that our definition of "Life" and "Death" will unquestionably differ wildly from that of many other people, while at the same time we will likely also find people who share our conception thereof.

Only you can really know the answer, no one else will ever tell it to you, even if they do you wont believe them unless you already agreed anyway.