Is life worth living?

[anon_003]

First of all, it is important to this thread to clarify that for definitely, DEPRESSION DOES NOT IMPLY BIG EGO. It can, for sure, but this assertion is tremendously offensive both to me (as someone who has suffered from very serious depression) and to everyone else (a huge number of people) who have suffered from depression. Depression is SO real.

For example, what I believe to be a major root of my depression is lack of stimulation. I just get bored from stuff easily. Getting bored with life has nothing to do with ego. If you think otherwise, it is pretty obvious you have never truly been depressed.. or you have, and it was because of ego, and you are just projecting.

What was the cure then? Listening to myself and MAKING EFFORT in picking up interesting and fulfilling hobbies.

Speaking of ego, LOL at those of you thinking working a boring job makin cash moneys is a fallacy or ego thing. Seriously, get back to me in 10 years and tell me how you feel after you are stressed about money all of the time. Making money means you are actually providing humanity with services that keep the wheels of society running... with a few minor exceptions... if you feel differently, I'm sorry to say, you are naive and do not understand what keeps our quality of life so good here in developed countries.




But enough with the self pity. Get over yourself. Ufo is on point when saying that this sort of depression is based in ego. Do you just expect the world to cater to you? Poor baby. Get stuff you want done, DONE. Make some money and go on vacation. Be the person who picks your friends out of their depressions. Seeing smiles on other peoples faces, knowing you were a major factor, is a joy that is almost unmatched.

Quit making excuses about how miserable your life is. You know exactly why it is miserable if it is only your circumstances you are complaining about. You are the only person that can change those circumstances.

 

[blue_velvet]

Disclaimer: I'm probably full of it and I have a potentially unhealthy world-view.

The gnostics grappled with this problem on a cosmic level almost a couple millenia ago, some seeing the universe and creation (i.e. demiurge) as a negative force or even Satan. The existentialists and nihilists focused on subjective solutions to the problem, while pessimist philosophers go the whole hog and claim consciousness a horror of inevitable suffering. Personally, I feel adulthood is a process of resignation to the indifference of the universe. Some take to it quicker than others. Daoist philosophy has helped me a great deal here, it's almost a blend of all the aforementioned tendencies. Now, I just try to project that indifference back on the demiurge, rather than into the feedback loop of depressive thought.

When I start thinking of this stuff, I turn to Cioran for some levity.

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

The refutation of suicide: is it not inelegant to abandon a world which has so willingly put itself at the service of our melancholy?

No one should try to live if he has not completed his training as a victim.

By all evidence we are in the world to do nothing.

Life is too full of death for death to be able to add anything to it.

Consciousness is nature's nightmare.

If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason.

The Creation was the first act of sabotage.

We are all deep in a hell each moment of which is a miracle.

When people come to me saying they want to kill themselves, I tell them, “What’s your rush? You can kill yourself any time you like. So calm down. Suicide is a positive act.” And they do calm down.

"What do you do from morning to night?" "I endure myself."

We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing, when we are impregnated by that nothing to the point of intoxication.

Except for music, everything is a lie, even solitude, even ecstasy. Music, in fact, is the one and the other, only better.

 

[anon_003]

Disclaimer: I'm probably full of it and I have a potentially unhealthy world-view.

The gnostics grappled with this problem on a cosmic level almost a couple millenia ago, some seeing the universe and creation (i.e. demiurge) as a negative force or even Satan. The existentialists and nihilists focused on subjective solutions to the problem, while pessimist philosophers go the whole hog and claim consciousness a horror of inevitable suffering. Personally, I feel adulthood is a process of resignation to the indifference of the universe. Some take to it quicker than others. Daoist philosophy has helped me a great deal here, it's almost a blend of all the aforementioned tendencies. Now, I just try to project that indifference back on the demiurge, rather than into the feedback loop of depressive thought.

When I start thinking of this stuff, I turn to Cioran for some levity.

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

The refutation of suicide: is it not inelegant to abandon a world which has so willingly put itself at the service of our melancholy?

No one should try to live if he has not completed his training as a victim.

By all evidence we are in the world to do nothing.

Life is too full of death for death to be able to add anything to it.

Consciousness is nature's nightmare.

If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason.

The Creation was the first act of sabotage.

We are all deep in a hell each moment of which is a miracle.

When people come to me saying they want to kill themselves, I tell them, “What’s your rush? You can kill yourself any time you like. So calm down. Suicide is a positive act.” And they do calm down.

"What do you do from morning to night?" "I endure myself."

We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing, when we are impregnated by that nothing to the point of intoxication.

Except for music, everything is a lie, even solitude, even ecstasy. Music, in fact, is the one and the other, only better.

Gross.

This is dangerous, life threatening, and IME really a piss-poor way of looking at things. As a philosopher, what utility does looking at things this way provide? "I endure myself"? "We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing"?

Sounds like some masochist cool-person drama queen. Sounds like an egomaniac. OMG ITS SO DEEP. This person truly needs to get over themselves.

You don't need to over-complicate it. Make a living so you have money to support yourself. Even if you don't really love going in to work 50 hours a week (or less most of the time).... that stress provides the contrast that makes the weekends so great. Pick up some real hobbies and make something you are proud of. The fact that you are able to live in modern housing and eat delicious food is a miracle in and of itself. Even 500 years ago, people would look at any situation like this and literally kill their own family for the opportunity. It's only you who is undermining it.

I'm not kidding you.... revel in the sublimeness of existence, make a living, and do what you want in your free time. Watch your diet, sleep, and exercise, and your thought patterns. Tell me you are depressed after that.

Emil Cioran sounds like a seriously confused individual.

 

[Chan]

Gross.

This is dangerous, life threatening, and IME really a piss-poor way of looking at things. As a philosopher, what utility does looking at things this way provide? "I endure myself"? "We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing"?

I disagree.

Your focus on "utility" probably extends the oppressive framework based on (erroneous attempts at...) self-valuation. And reaching for terms like gross, dangerous and life-threatening speaks of a level of fear about the validity of such valuation.

To become trapped in the internal, at the expense of the ever-changing, unpredictable external is a bit of a waste, and usually futile, IMO.

Aspiration to nothing = freedom.

Don't diss the Dao!

 

[anon_003]

Gross.

This is dangerous, life threatening, and IME really a piss-poor way of looking at things. As a philosopher, what utility does looking at things this way provide? "I endure myself"? "We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing"?

I disagree.

Your focus on "utility" probably extends the oppressive framework based on (erroneous attempts at...) self-valuation. And reaching for terms like gross, dangerous and life-threatening speaks of a level of fear about the validity of such valuation.

To become trapped in the internal, at the expense of the ever-changing, unpredictable external is a bit of a waste, and usually futile, IMO.

Aspiration to nothing = freedom.

Don't diss the Dao!

Nah. I believe that the lack of ultimate purpose is quite liberating... maybe I just disagree with labeling this truth as "aspiration to nothing"

If you don't have any aspirations, you're gonna be miserable. Sitting around, getting stoned all of the time gets real old after a while.

Even if the goals "aspire to nothing"... accomplishing goals that you want to accomplish brings you joy in this incarnation... that is the point.

 

[hug46]

Personally, I feel adulthood is a process of resignation to the indifference of the universe.

I have come to the same conclusion myself and i have to say that, although i am still sometimes mentally challenged in some respects, it has been liberating for me.

From what i see depression is a growing problem and i believe that it maybe related to aspiration and the need for success, whether it be in our personal, creative or professional lives. It is accentuated by the development of information technology.
In the west we are now constantly bombarded with tripe on how to be a better lover, businessperson, how to be a better artist, how to be a better human being and it can make some people feel pretty inadequate and down when they feel that they don't match up to the expectations of society. Or that everyone else is living some kind of hunky dory, utopian kind of lifestyle.

Once you give up on aspiration and the possible fact that everything is just meaningless you can get on with the important business of existing for the sake of existence. Without mental anchors such as success or aspiration you can get on with doing the things that you want to do.

I would also like to add the same disclaimer as Blue_velvet as it could be that i am just making excuses for being a lazy son of a bitch.

 

[obliguhl]

I think zknarc proved my point by feeling personally attacked instead of answering my question. That's the problem with depressed persons imo. It's always about themselves, not about others.

To me that is a different cn of worms. The need to feel cared for would be arguably higher in depressed people and also the percieved threshhold for personal attacks. But that isn't due to the depression itself but the fact that their system is trying to prevent more hurt. This can most definatly lead to self pitty and other self centered behaviour - but it isn't exclusive to depresion but rather a strategy the ego employs to prevent more hurt.

It is not a good strategy, but if you're bitten by a walker, you have to get your legs cut off to survive.

Sure, but there's always somebody worse off than you. I mean 99% of depressed people aren't concentration camp survivors

Is that a valid argument? Does the suffering of a concentration camp surviver somehow diminish the pain you are feeling? Especially if you have absolutely no frame of reference. By that i mean, you can't really know how you pain compares to the pain of others because pain can't be measured scientifically as its a mode of consciousness. What can be measured though is the subjective amount of pain someone feels by their own testament. Some people do have amazing coping strategies and DO NOT develop mental illness after a traumatic event. Some people cope rather poorly and need way less to feel intense, long lasting pain.

I don't find that rude at all as it is not a competition. Who wins something by claiming that they are worse off than x ? The only reward would be some sort of twisted sense of eligability to continuing your self pitty. But this is somthing that you do seem to despise.

 

[jamie]

We can only ever really offend ourselves.

If you feel that life is not worth living, than for you, It isn't. Many people take they're lives every day because they feel there is no worth left. I see no value is glossing it over. This is the struggle we all must face at some point. There is a very good reason that men and women through the ages have described a dark night of the soul.

Is life worth living? I see this question a bit like asking what a blowjob is worth. That is always going to be relative.

What is a life worth living? What does that look like?

In my view, one must loose it all in order to really touch down on what real value lies at the core. Many people are resigned in life, miserable and caught in self loathing cycles of narcissism. They do all sorts of things, yet are not quite sure why. Does that sound like a generalization? Good. It is.

There is a reason for the value in a job done well. Hard work is valued in the world. There is no such thing as free will. Will, is to be exercised. It is not handed out to the unwilling. It takes work, dedication and the experience of longing. Longing, when divorced from the idea of needs, can be a blessing. It is not a craving which any thing can satiate. Make peace with it. It is inviting you to deepen. Once this is realized, I think it is best to abandon the notion of meaning. I find no satisfaction within the realm of meaning in my life. My satisfaction, comes from a life lived. It requires no suitor. love, is paramount. It no longer requires meaning.

I don't really believe that anyone here gives a damn about meaning. No one cares about meaning. No one wakes up and thinks "oh dear me I wish I had more meaning in my life!"...not really. What every person really wants is happiness. This, in my view, comes forth naturally from a life lived. When life lives a person, moves them, meaning is seen as an intrinsic part of the background of all existence. It was never gone, never absent..never elsewhere. It was always right here, in the lived moment. How many men and women are so resigned in life that they fail to step into living?

A better question, that I have come to in my own life, is how many triggers do you have? A true man or woman of wisdom, of lived experience is one who has fallen, gotten up and fallen back down enough times that they have awakened to these triggers. You want to know what real wisdom looks like?..Someone who can sit in the bloody room with another and never be triggered..regardless of race, class, gender, philosophical or religious orientation. They carry a certain warmth within them, they are never offended, they carry opinions very carefully, and adhere to no agenda. They're presence itself is enough.

It's in the way a person conducts themselves.

Very few people achieve this kind of greatness. I have met very few I would regard in this way. All of them, have suffered greatly.

Want to know if your life has any worth? Figure out what is triggering the worthlessness.

Want to know how to be happy in your life? Figure out what is triggering you to feel unhappy.

..and then ask why? Why these triggers?

Self examination is crucial. Look no farther than the mirror. I no longer believe there are any of these mirrors in a hermetically sealed cave. The mirror, is in relationship. This is where the battle within yourself comes up front and center. How well do you sit with others? What are your triggers? Find out, and you will find the road back home.

Sitting off alone in the corner wont get a person there. Meditation and solitude are important, but they are not to be overtly indulged in either, in my experience. When you come down from the mountain top, ya still got to sit with others. Peer into that mirror.

Life is to be lived.

Never forget that many people come and go in this world, resigned to defeat and misery to the bitter end... Babies get cancer, rapists walk among us.. For myself, this realization has been invaluable. There is no time for that. You are here, now. Stop wasting time.

 

[jamie]

Disclaimer: I'm probably full of it and I have a potentially unhealthy world-view.

The gnostics grappled with this problem on a cosmic level almost a couple millenia ago, some seeing the universe and creation (i.e. demiurge) as a negative force or even Satan. The existentialists and nihilists focused on subjective solutions to the problem, while pessimist philosophers go the whole hog and claim consciousness a horror of inevitable suffering. Personally, I feel adulthood is a process of resignation to the indifference of the universe. Some take to it quicker than others. Daoist philosophy has helped me a great deal here, it's almost a blend of all the aforementioned tendencies. Now, I just try to project that indifference back on the demiurge, rather than into the feedback loop of depressive thought.

When I start thinking of this stuff, I turn to Cioran for some levity.

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

The refutation of suicide: is it not inelegant to abandon a world which has so willingly put itself at the service of our melancholy?

No one should try to live if he has not completed his training as a victim.

By all evidence we are in the world to do nothing.

Life is too full of death for death to be able to add anything to it.

Consciousness is nature's nightmare.

If I were to be totally sincere, I would say that I do not know why I live and why I do not stop living. The answer probably lies in the irrational character of life which maintains itself without reason.

The Creation was the first act of sabotage.

We are all deep in a hell each moment of which is a miracle.

When people come to me saying they want to kill themselves, I tell them, “What’s your rush? You can kill yourself any time you like. So calm down. Suicide is a positive act.” And they do calm down.

"What do you do from morning to night?" "I endure myself."

We are fulfilled only when we aspire to nothing, when we are impregnated by that nothing to the point of intoxication.

Except for music, everything is a lie, even solitude, even ecstasy. Music, in fact, is the one and the other, only better.

I would hesitate to conflate the Demi-urge with Satan but I understand the point being made. Gnosticism is a heavily controversial and (in my view) often misunderstood topic of discussion. Great post!

 

[thymamai]

as the years roll by I find my reaction to life at bottom more or less crystallizing into the picard peak a boo

no, imho life as it is engendered by people of breeding and status in the world today is not worthwhile. and I have gone my own way apart from it for so long it is difficult to relate on even a basic level with very many any longer. you reach a level of boredom that your very own ego shrivels away into a mere speck as the workings of the world around and the things it is peopled by turns both trivial and absurd.

that said there are layers and levels to the experience, and those more enjoyable overlays and underlays that I've found meaningful are self-contained and non communicable to this one I idly reflect upon in the above. and the menial tasks necessary in this little slice of reality aren't skin enough off my back that the task of plumbing those other depths are no longer gratifying, so long as there is a gem or jewel or lightning flash ever so often that I can pocket from it.. however few and far between they are any longer.

 

[jamie]

It might be rather difficult to say just what is engendered in the world of another...regardless of breed or class..

Your mailman could be a sage.

 

[blue_velvet]

Nah. I believe that the lack of ultimate purpose is quite liberating... maybe I just disagree with labeling this truth as "aspiration to nothing"

If you don't have any aspirations, you're gonna be miserable. Sitting around, getting stoned all of the time gets real old after a while.

Even if the goals "aspire to nothing"... accomplishing goals that you want to accomplish brings you joy in this incarnation... that is the point.

Of course, but it's all vanity and striving after wind, to borrow from Ecclesiastes. Accepting this and reveling in it is helpful when truth and meaning is like water slipping through our fingertips. I mean, some of us can't help but obsess over this stuff; the aesthetic ideal of completeness is seductive, overpowering the emotional heuristics that others might suggest. Naturally, this leads to philosophical extremes, but in observing the Dao, the way of nature, our psychological patterns...one can maneuver by shifting weight so to speak, going with the flow, etc. Lao Zi, Zhuang Zi, Nietzsche, Cioran...they all wrote books, i.e. accomplished things, monumental cultural artifacts actually, but they had to run into these questions and ultimately decide that no, none of this matters, but here goes anyway!

There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink and find enjoyment in his toil.

Also, come to think of it, Salinger's Franny and Zoe is a very relevant book here.

 

[thymamai]

Is that an underhanded way of hinting that maybe you're the sage, jamie? And what do you mean mailman? .. like a hypothetical benevolent spy of sorts? or.. possibly a simple messenger. Yes, we all know 911 was an inside job, but who is really outside these days eh? There are more Americans than there are aborted chinese babies and I want to know what America is even supposed to mean anymore? Do you know, sage jamie, what it means? and for that matter what precisely is a mailman anyway?? The mailman could be anyone, as you say.

 

[Legarto Rey]

"the universe is indifferent"?? In a strictly solipsistic sense, maybe.

The same universe that encompasses, grants, sustains(with or without telos) the very GROUND OF BEING. The grand, eternal, moment to moment flaring forth of space/time, matter/energy, awareness/consciousness AND awareness OF consciousness that is SO laughably self evident during the psychedelic catalyzed mystic state.

We merely forget to remember. That's the beauty of psychs. We're just the universe perceiving itself. If "you" don't dig the perspective, it's no matter.

The GIFT is the CAPACITY to realize that you're realizing! "You" and "I" are not the point. Remember?

 

[spacexplorer]

Your post and unsolicited judgement is ignorant, unhelpful and rude.

Oh, I'm sorry I've hurt your ego. Of course you are a pitiable person.^^

Rofl, hard and fast



Anyway to the point...it depends on what you give value to in life, if you don't value anything and you need something to value then life probably isn't worth living if you do value something or believe you can find value in something and you need value then it probably is worth fighting for. If you don't give value to anything but you don't need value either then you're still going to just be living...a lot of personal choice goes into the matter no one can tell you whether your own life personally is worth living or not unless you want them to or listen to them

 

[Curb]

and where is Zknarc now? i feel like he was pushed out of a conversation that perhaps he could contribute most out of all people let alone the pompous arrogant few who speak loud, but say nothing. have you experienced the extremes of emotion Ufostrahlen, have you tried to understand yourself enough to force yourself into action or have you just rode the path of denial all along, to understand yourself and find your true sense of passion and desire requires questioning yourself in all aspects. but it is impossibly difficult to do this when others are constantly doing it for you in an unhelpful or even offensive manner.

Regardless of how RIGHT you are, many truths can be correct at the same time. dismiss no other until enough rope has been given

 

[Legarto Rey]

"speak loud, but say nothing"

Or, we can encourage our(psychedelically informed?) brethren to wallow in existential angst, whilst bemoaning the reality of life bound by physical constraints like, acquisition of resources and breeding.

The "truth" is rather banal>>>"Root hog, or die". Same as it ever was!

Alternatively, vote Bernie.

 

[DmnStr8]

Sometimes it seems very pointless.

We attach and grab onto anything as we fall.

Can the mind ever be clear? Isn't that the point? A clear mind.

Sometimes it seems very pointless.

There is a place where the mind is clear. It's there. You have to find it. It's hard to sustain. You have to work at it. It takes commitment to clear the mind. To operate it and it not operate you.

 

[PH0Man]

In a strict cost/benefit sense? I'd say it varies by individual. Most people do not often ever wish they'd never been born/had the chance to live so I'd have to say most most it probably is.

I am very depressed and I cannot remember the last time I didn't wake up wishing I didn't have to exist. My life is absolutely not worth living and feels like a punishment.

I remember seeing somwhere on the forum that you were INTJ, as am I, so perhaps when I say I understand where your depression comes from, I do (assuming you're not clinically depressed).

Unlike anyone I know, and I hope I speak for both of us, I cannot create a false perspective of an inherently depressing world. I perceive as objectively as possible, and I feel as I do based on what I perceive. Am I on to something here?

 

[Koornut]

Like rare earth metals, living is "worth" whatever the demands of the day require.
Take this hunk of europium I found at work the other day. In the ground it is worthless, but in service to others it gains worth.
If you stumble upon life, best make use of it because eventually it will oxidise and decay.