Is what we learn in hyperspace 'real'?

[JDSalinger]

Hello all, I have a question that has been nagging at me for some time now since my first (and only) DMT experience. In hyperspace I learnt/got shown something, something very profound which shock my very being and completely changed me as a person. I did not understand why because I did not remember what it was that was shown to me, though there it was lurking, growing, in my subconscious. Previous to all this I had received a very good job offer career wise and was going to call up and take it the day after trying DMT for the first time. Not only did I turn the job down but I handed in my notice at my current job, have terminated the contract on the unit I live in with my partner and have decided to move back in with my parents (who I haven't lived with for 8 years!). All of this so we can save up and backpack through South America for a year and to return and go back to university.
last week my partner and I had a life changing experience with LSD, she pointed out some fractal patterns and said, 'hey does this remind you of DMT a little?', casually I said 'yes' and BAM! Instantly we both had full recollection of our first and definitely not last hyperspace experience, with that was a sharpened thought process one that was rationalising and reasoning better than my conscious mind normally could but still a fraction of what it was on DMT. We were over come to say the least, there we sat and strolled in a beautiful park discussing and exploring the ramifications of what we had seen. I am hesitant to tell you all what I saw out of fear as I haven't told anyone (partner excluded) yet I have an overwhelming love for you all and feel safe sharing here. In my introduction essay I attached a short trip report which I had written the day after and in it I was foggy on some details so I will explain where I left off as best I can with the limited words I have at my disposal. I was in a white cube with a slightly reflective surface. There I heard a voice and it said 'You've won' instantly I thought 'won what?' and at the same time I received a reply, 'the answer', and I though 'what answer?' again at the same time, 'to the meaning of life'. Then I knew, there in that cube that life, my life, our life had no meaning and that everything I have come to know and belief as real was not. I, although I had no body, was plucked out of maybe of my own mouth by that mouths fingers for a brief time was a taste then as I was plucked out became nothing more than a noise a frequency, then all together ceased to exist. This scared me for obvious reasons and I tried to ground myself, I knew that I was on the beach with my partner and a friend and I tried to reconnect to my body and I couldn't, so I tried to talk, 'Stop, I want to stop', they heard me and touched me, I was back on earth which made me feel better yet in that haze of recollection like after a dream, before it disappears, I realised that it was impossible to be scared because if what I was scared of was to be true then being scared was irrelevant and I was filled with calm.
While on LSD I had may hours to think and I thought all through that day and night and still half way through the next day before I finally slept. The conclusion I came to was that I have never before had such a vast intellect, it is so much so that even now I cannot fathom it and there I held something to be a 'truth' and that was that none of this was real, at least be the definitions which we measure it and therefore this life had no meaning. It sounds withdrawn and bleak at first, I know but it isn't, it is the most lovely feeling, it has set me free. Though we can never be truly free, not in this life only the animals are and it saddens me when we cage them. My mind is open, I haven't felt so alive or so smart again it such a long time. It has given me back something, something which I had once but have forgotten and that is my innocence. I started writing this with trepidation but am finishing with an overwhelming sense of joy and I and filled with a love for all things natural including humans and where I have gotten angry at my fellow beings, rape, abuse, terrorism etc. I only have sadness and pity. Its is such a beautiful thing, is it not?

 

[KillaNoodles]

---

 

[JDSalinger]

The experience is real for the experiencer. But, I'd say it's only 'real' so far as your mind can generate "reality".

Yes, I agree with you on that that my experience is real to me and can only be real to me.

Your brain does indeed facilitate a conscious mind, and you can consciously perceive a VERSION of reality called "your environment" based on your brain's interpretations of its surroundings. Of course, none of what you perceive is the environment in its true state, but the delayed interpretations of data from your sensory organs.

/quote]
Again I agree, if though this universe, including us was fabricated by an architect does that mean by definition that this reality is a falsity? If we are to assume for arguments sake that we have some sort of an 'after life' does that make that reality the true reality?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Required reading for anyone posting these kinds of threads...

A pragmatic approach: What is "real", and when is it actually useful to ask this?
The Improbability of Hyperspace
The Improbability of Hyperspace, Part II

 

[ganesh]

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[JDSalinger]

Required reading for anyone posting these kinds of threads...

Thank you very much! Very interesting yet I will need to read and digest it all over a couple of days, there is so much reading I have to do (my dad just brought a stack of books by on quantum physics and theology)! A pragmatic approach to hyperspace is just logical, yet I feel on that conclusion, which is ultimately reached, by the same logic one must apply it to our own world. The notion that all our experiences and predictions about the universe e.g. that light will behave in ways we can predict regardless of us being there; only point to there being an intelligent design. DMT has opened my mind to mathematics and the intrinsic complexity of the universe and I wake up early and stay up late reading, learning. It has really rekindled a faith in God for me but I am of the notion that all religious beliefs (besides cults etc.) are valid. I realise that to continue we need to agree on some divine entity, assuming this we can agree it means the universe was created. Logically I am forced to believe that this universe isn't real as I previously defined real, what is I can only assume but that we are part of a creation which has been therefore built, makes this, by reason, a false reality. There evidently is no prove to this theory and there will always have to be 'faith' but the math does show intelligence and maths is a universal language that defines everything we can sense and call 'real'. Once I saw and accepted this I am unable to believe that the universe was random, the odds of it all being by chance are beyond me, I mean everything has a purpose! Wouldn't a god create using maths as we would use to create a computer program?
I have been thinking this thought lately and it makes sense to me, if there was a answer, somewhere in the universe, would it not be in the universe? What makes more sense then than DMT? These revelations I have been having are setting me free, whether this will apply to other people I have no idea because it is so hard to let go. Once you do let go to everything you loose worry, I am still very much a part of society and only wish to help other people, animals and all things natural, but I am no longer a slave to it. I can now live because I have no expectations and this I belief will give me a better life than I could of ever had. My eyes are becoming open and I just keep seeing.

 

[JDSalinger]

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

So very true.

 

[BundleflowerPower]

Your mind is real isn't it? And the contents of your mind are real, at least to you, so I would say it's real.

 

[JDSalinger]

Your mind is real isn't it? And the contents of your mind are real, at least to you, so I would say it's real.

Yes, I have independent critical thought, so my soul is real same with other people and animals. Beyond that no, it sure feels real because I have had a life of conditioning. Strange but it has made me so happy because worries lose all validity.

 

[Pupa]

Wouldn't a god create using maths as we would use to create a computer program?

I think that's a really interesting point. As I understand it, it's a complete mystery - to mathematicians & physicists at least - why the universe appears to be written in the language of mathematics.
And the dmt experience seems to show that "look guys, this reality thing isn't as real as ya'll seem to think it is". In fact, it's very obviously not "real" at all. At least, not in the sense I thought. That was my one, very limited experience anyway, but I think yours was similar.
Also, there's something called the "simulation argument" as well. You've probably heard of it, basically it says: IF a society ever became so advanced that it could run realistic historical universe/earth-type simulations (of an ultra-realistic, high quality, akin to our world experience), then they would probably run millions+ of these simulations. In that case, it's more than likely we are living in such a simulation. Given that the odds of living in the one "real reality" would be very slim.
(I hope I've paraphrased that correctly. But you get the idea, anyway).

(I definitely got a "consensus-reality-is-a-biological-computer-program" vibe from dmt... but maybe that's just what it feels like to be spat back into it.
In any case, it definitely seems to be such a small part of The Whole Realm of Everything).

All interesting ideas and great to think about. Personally, I vacillate between which framework of viewing reality feels right at the time, or is most helpful. (And maybe it's a moot point anyway. This reality is as "real" as it ever was...and maybe it's the wrong question to be asking, I don't know).
Are the things we learn on dmt "real"? I lean towards "probably", but I think it's unhealthy to be a "true believer" of anything. So I still try and take these things with a grain of salt, as just another perspective to appreciate. Consensus reality seems to reinforce the belief in itself. I mean, when you're here, it's "realness" is self-evident. But the same is true for perspectives/realities in dmt-space. So, I try and accept that I will never really understand the true nature of things, and just try and go with it

Anyway, it definitely sounds like you're in a very good place at the moment, I think that's what's most important. Thanks for your posts and the experience report, great read.
so...no clear answers here, I'm afraid. Just more thoughts. To be taken with a grain of salt.

*Apologies for any ego..ness and so much "I" this, "I" that - I'm a self-obsessed ape, but admitting it has gotta be the first step!

 

[Jees]

What is, is. And therefore in no need for an approving label as 'real'.

 

[ganesh]

Your mind is real isn't it? And the contents of your mind are real, at least to you, so I would say it's real.

Yes, I have independent critical thought, so my soul is real same with other people and animals. Beyond that no, it sure feels real because I have had a life of conditioning. Strange but it has made me so happy because worries lose all validity.

It's without a doubt to many Cultures that Spiritual realms exist. Amazonian Curandero's live solitarty lives in the nature to 'diet' plants in order to recieve teachings and icaros from the plant spirits. Australian Aboriginees believe in 'dream time'. There exists a belief called 'Animaism', or that spirits abound in Nature. The Chinese martial artists cultivate Chi, etc.

Some people think we are living simultaneously in a Spirit world, and also 'this world'. Perhaps when people dream or use Entheogens, they temporarily revisit these 'Spirit worlds'?

What is the purpose of the Brain? Is it a filter which allows us access to a reality that we can choose to tune into, depending on what we choose to consume? If we watch fashion television, do we become attuned to fashion? What if we eat a lemon, do we attune to that lemon world? If we drink Alcohol, do we see the world in an Alcoholic daze? Are those temporary states real?...Maybe, but only as temporarily as the brain is attuned to those states of being-TO YOU.A nearby sober friend will not know of what you have experienced, but that is not to say that you did not experience it, or that it was not valid or a useful experience. Imagine if we all thought the same, what the World would look like?

You talk about Mathematics, but that is a label. Maybe divinity or whatever you wanna call it involves these aspects, as well as many others, but is still completely indescribable, because it is ever changing and evolving. Seriously you are thinking along some cool lines, but talking about what i would call, 'THE' subject, that every living human wants answers to.

There are no definate answers to that.

(BUT, you ask if it is real what it's trying to teach you. I find that interesting a comment. Don't believe a word of what i think, but at least consider the fact that Amazonian Curandero's specifically base their beliefs on LEARNING what the Spirit world teaches them, that they access through plants. They 'diet' these plants in solitude so that there are no distractions to their learning process. They get this information directly, without ego or conditioning to block it's assimilation. This is what they do to learn. They diet many plants. It is not an easy life choice to make.)

 

[JDSalinger]

And the dmt experience seems to show that "look guys, this reality thing isn't as real as ya'll seem to think it is". In fact, it's very obviously not "real" at all. At least, not in the sense I thought. That was my one, very limited experience anyway, but I think yours was similar.

Reading that more people have reached a similar conclusion independently to my own only reaffirms my beliefs, thank you brother.

 

[JDSalinger]

What is, is. And therefore in no need for an approving label as 'real'.

I would have to disagree with you on that, because it is believing that is setting my free.

 

[JDSalinger]

Imagine if we all thought the same, what the World would look like?

I have thought about what you have said, at first I thought we would loose diversity but them I realised that we would gain unity, imagine that, what a beautiful idea, no wars, no suffering, Eden...

(BUT, you ask if it is real what it's trying to teach you. I find that interesting a comment. Don't believe a word of what i think, but at least consider the fact that Amazonian Curandero's specifically base their beliefs on LEARNING what the Spirit world teaches them, that they access through plants. They 'diet' these plants in solitude so that there are no distractions to their learning process. They get this information directly, without ego or conditioning to block it's assimilation. This is what they do to learn. They diet many plants. It is not an easy life choice to make.)/quote]
Yes, even though I have a different faith I cannot deny truth to any other faith, nor do I see why they cannot all be valid.
Today I have been thinking on intelligence, if you experience/learn something in hyperspace that is unlike anything that your previous experiences could have lead you to it points to being foreign. Using foreign thought I can rationalise you are real because of your independent thought to my own e.g. I never knew about the Amazonian tribes till now; I can therefore rationalise intelligence other than my own in hyperspace, what ever that may be. Interesting isn't it?

 

[ganesh]

Today I have been thinking on intelligence, if you experience/learn something in hyperspace that is unlike anything that your previous experiences could have lead you to it points to being foreign. Using foreign thought I can rationalise you are real because of your independent thought to my own e.g. I never knew about the Amazonian tribes till now; I can therefore rationalise intelligence other than my own in hyperspace, what ever that may be. Interesting isn't it?

Perhaps what is most interesting is that this knowledge comes from nature, simply just by being open to recieving it, one can assimilate it. Similar to medative states i guess.

 

[Jees]

What is, is. And therefore in no need for an approving label as 'real'.

I would have to disagree with you on that, because it is believing that is setting my free.

It's funny actually, because something has to be real enough (has enough "weight" ) in order to make it reject-able as un-real. But I suppose no price is big enough for believing in the freedom to reject what you like to suit the day.


PS: all just tongue in cheek, its fiddling with definitions after all.

 

[JDSalinger]

Thank you for all the replies I have thoroughly enjoyed them. The Nexus is a safe place to discuss this, anywhere outside of here I would probably be seen as crazy, yet it is with a clarity that I have never known that I find myself in. Since I believe that God created matter, and from that matter came the big bang and life as we know it I am forced to believe that whatever existed before would logically have to be real, as a result this world is a 'reality' which was built upon another reality. Yes DMT was the cause for me seeing this but through logical thought given my beliefs I cannot unbelief this, I feel like I am now just starting to live!

 

[Pupa]

It's great to be able to talk about this stuff here. A lot of what you said resonated with me, and I definitely don't know what to make of it all. But I have to say, I'm very appreciative for this place.
It's such an intensely bizarre experience that it's difficult to do by yourself... After all, maybe we're peeking through the curtains of reality - or are we? I don't know - that's why it's so great to have this community - and I know it's probably been said a thousand times, but it's just nice to know that none of us are alone!


Wishing you the best.
Safe travels

 

[JDSalinger]

You too Pupa! :d