Is white spirit suitable as the substitute for shellite/naphta (,or is it the same thing)?

[Pebble on the Beach]

Hi all,

This is SWIM's very first post on this forum so if SWIM's question raises the hairs on the back of your neck, please bear with him.

SWIM's been exposing himself to different "mindopeners" for quite some time now and came across this forum by accident, googling DMT. SWIM's been reading for about two months now and decided to take the leap. So here goes.

SWIM was in a general store in his neighbourhood today looking at the household chemicals on the shelves, also his first prowl for the required reagents, when he picked up a bottle of white spirit out of curiosity. Most brand names you guys mention here aren't available in SWIM's part of world. On the label he read that it was desulpherd naphta, but he can't recall with what it was desulpherd with. SWIM tried to plough through all the noob topic's but it's a pretty big piece of information.


Dr. Phill, SWIM really doesn't know what to do now. Please help me.

 

[endlessness]

if SWIY lives in europe, try to look at the specific brand name on the internet, to see if there is more detailed information. SWIM had similar issue, and even if in the label it was only mentioned naphtha, there were small traces of xylene, which made SWIM get not pure spice, but jungle spice.. and SWIM hates xylene, its toxic and is persistent, it tends to leave traces in final product... But try to see SWIY's particular case, maybe can find a propper pure naphtha.

or maybe see if SWIY can get limonene instead and do a food safe extraction?

 

[Pebble on the Beach]

Thanks for the quick reply.

SWIM had a look on the web and after a few minutes found some decent info on the naphta bit. On the other reagents for an A/B extraction as well actually. SWIM's such a dope sometimes, but he's still a little cautious and prefers to ask instead of going on wild goose chases.
This limonene on the other hand doesn't seem so easy to get a hold of. Even on a few chemistry fora SWIM visited people asked this question without getting a decent answer. It's also stil a bit over SWIM's head also, as he is pretty new to the whole chemistry thing.

Just out of curiosity, if you use this limonene instead of naphta, the tek (SWIM's been reading the wiki and that DMT handbook one of you guys uploaded) stays the same, you just replace "naphta" with "limonene"?

On a last note: SWIM's been reading the safety sheet on NaOH. It says there that contact with water should be avoided, you guys are also talking about being careful when mixing the lye in the water due to the reaction.
It also says that contact with metals should be avoided because this can result in the formation of hydrogen fumes wich can react explosively with the air. Yet the tek in the DMT handbook talks about stainless steel pots.
Exactly what reaction can SWIM expect when he starts mixing these two?

 

[endlessness]

Thanks for the quick reply.

SWIM had a look on the web and after a few minutes found some decent info on the naphta bit. On the other reagents for an A/B extraction as well actually. SWIM's such a dope sometimes, but he's still a little cautious and prefers to ask instead of going on wild goose chases.
This limonene on the other hand doesn't seem so easy to get a hold of. Even on a few chemistry fora SWIM visited people asked this question without getting a decent answer. It's also stil a bit over SWIM's head also, as he is pretty new to the whole chemistry thing.

Just out of curiosity, if you use this limonene instead of naphta, the tek (SWIM's been reading the wiki and that DMT handbook one of you guys uploaded) stays the same, you just replace "naphta" with "limonene"?

On a last note: SWIM's been reading the safety sheet on NaOH. It says there that contact with water should be avoided, you guys are also talking about being careful when mixing the lye in the water due to the reaction.
It also says that contact with metals should be avoided because this can result in the formation of hydrogen fumes wich can react explosively with the air. Yet the tek in the DMT handbook talks about stainless steel pots.
Exactly what reaction can SWIM expect when he starts mixing these two?

hey

the limonene tek is quite different, here's one thread I found about it

limonene is basically orange oil, maybe you can find it...

as for the NaOH, when it mixes with water it generates heat. So mixing a bit of NaOH in a lot of water and stiring it while doing is fine, as the heat wont accumulate, it spreads through the water. But if a few drops of water fall in a bunch of NaOH pellets, the water drops may boil and togethe some pieces of NaOH fly around.. and a bit of NaOH in your eyes can blind you forever! so be very careful, use gloves and safety glasses.

and the contact with metals is a problem with things like aluminium, for example, but stainless steel is no problem

 

[tolu]

Depending on where you are, white spirit can be different things.
My friend is testing out white spirit right now, first pull will be evaporating soon.

Just out of curiosity, if you use this limonene instead of naphta, the tek (SWIM's been reading the wiki and that DMT handbook one of you guys uploaded) stays the same, you just replace "naphta" with "limonene"?

On a last note: SWIM's been reading the safety sheet on NaOH. It says there that contact with water should be avoided, you guys are also talking about being careful when mixing the lye in the water due to the reaction.
It also says that contact with metals should be avoided because this can result in the formation of hydrogen fumes wich can react explosively with the air. Yet the tek in the DMT handbook talks about stainless steel pots.
Exactly what reaction can SWIM expect when he starts mixing these two?

Here's the simplest write up I've seen for the limonene tek:

You can get better yields mixing your 100 grams of dry finely powdered MHRB with 25 grams of calcium hydroxide, and then adding just enough water to make it wet but not soggy or dripping wet, about as wet as cookie dough. Then mix the thick stuff thoroughly for about 5 minutes and let it sit a few hours mixing occasionally. It will be hard to mix. It will take some muscle. You’ll need a heavy wooden spoon or a cookie dough mixing machine to mix it. Then mix in your naphtha (or d-limonene) thoroughly for about 5 minutes and let it sit a few hours and then collect the naphtha by decanting it. If you did it correctly, no water should come out of the MHRB/Calcium mix. If any water comes out, you used too much water.

As for the stainless steel pots, I don't recommend using them, nor stainless steel spoons for stirring.
Stainless reacts with acids and bases.
Put a stainless steel spoon in some basic water and check on it the next day.

 

[geeg30]

White spirit should work, after all its just a mix of longer chain hydrocarbons. Might even pull a bit of jungle etc (don't know haven't tested it). The only problem you may find is that it will take ages to evap and probably won't freeze precip.

What SWIM does is use lighter fluid (zippo, swan, ronsonol etc), according to the MSDS the one SWIM uses is basically VM&P naptha. He then freeze precips to reuse the naptha, redissolves the spice in acetone (due to ease of cleaning out the container that held the freeze precip) and evaps the acetone to get nice crystals. For SWIM acetone is way much cheaper than naptha plus the amount used for evap is tiny due to the very good solubility of spice in acetone - its about 20mg per ml I think. You could even use FASA on the redissolved spice and then reuse the acetone in subsequent FASA.

Then once you have pulled most of the spice with naptha use your white spirit to pull the jungle etc (if it works) or use xylene, toluene or DCM to pull the jungle.

 

[Pebble on the Beach]

and the contact with metals is a problem with things like aluminium, for example, but stainless steel is no problem

As for the stainless steel pots, i don't recommend using them, nor stainless steel spoons for stirring.
Stainless reacts with acids and bases.
Put a stainless steel spoon in some basic water and check on it the next day.

Ideas seem to differ here. SWIM's guessing the relative short exposure of the steel during the cook won't cause too much trouble.

SWIM's been reading on the limonene tek and it sounds very interesting, he's waiting for a response from one of the websites if they deliver SWIM's side of the ocean.

SWIM's looking into the glass labequipment but hasn't found any decent things on secondhand sites. Patience is a virtue SWIM guesses. Suggestions are always welcome. If SWIM uses glass jars of sorts, pickle and jelly for instance, the glass will probably corrode over time due to the lye. What's the lifespan of those, or is SWIM just imagining things?

White spirit should work, after all its just a mix of longer chain hydrocarbons. Might even pull a bit of jungle etc (don't know haven't tested it). The only problem you may find is that it will take ages to evap and probably won't freeze precip.

What SWIM does is use lighter fluid (zippo, swan, ronsonol etc), according to the MSDS the one SWIM uses is basically VM&P naptha. He then freeze precips to reuse the naptha, redissolves the spice in acetone (due to ease of cleaning out the container that held the freeze precip) and evaps the acetone to get nice crystals. For SWIM acetone is way much cheaper than naptha plus the amount used for evap is tiny due to the very good solubility of spice in acetone - its about 20mg per ml I think. You could even use FASA on the redissolved spice and then reuse the acetone in subsequent FASA.

Then once you have pulled most of the spice with naptha use your white spirit to pull the jungle etc (if it works) or use xylene, toluene or DCM to pull the jungle.

Thanks for the advice, but you're talking to an extraction virgin. SWIM first batch of MHRB is underway and he's digging to get the smaller details of the process, but that was way over my head.:S
SWIM'll keep it in mind though, when he's got his hands a bit more dirty.

 

[geeg30]

What side of the ocean are you on? Swim knows of a UK based Limonene seller. (haven't used them but others on this forum have).

Plus if you use glass jars then its very easy to decant into another fresh jar if you suspect corrosion (it would take a while).

 

[Pebble on the Beach]

SWIM's from the heart of Europe.

SWIM's just mailed the french mail adress of greenterpene.com to see if they deliver this side and what the shipping costs are. But all info would be nice, thanks

 

[geeg30]

Try mistralni.co.uk, you may need to invent a cleaning fetish when ordering. They are based in Ireland.

 

[endlessness]

about the stainless steel.. it does NOT react with dilute acids such as vinegar solutions used in an acid base extraction...

if you want to do an stb, for what part do you want to use the stainless steel? For separating the layer of the solvent and the basic mimosa solution, you anyways need at least a semi-transparent container to be able to see properly and pipette the top layer off.. SWIM uses a strong glass container. It is no problem if you use a thick glass container for a couple of extractions, if you dont leave the solution there for days and days and days... Alternatively, you can get some sort of HDPE container, which is a kind of harder plastic. Check your local hardware stores, hdpe has a triangle with a number 2 inside, usually on the bottom of the container. Its the stuff milk jugs are usually made of.

for stiring, SWIM uses a stainless steel spoon or a wooden one, no problem.

 

[Pebble on the Beach]

Okay, again thanks for the info.

SWIM thinks he got the basics down now, so he'll keep you posted on the extraction and if SWIM needs advice he'll be sure to turn to you guys.

Keep those fingers crossed and maybe in the near future SWIM'll post his first experience!

 

[nadir]

So shellite isn't a whitespirit, is it?
are there any reports of using whitespirit instead of shellit/naphtha for STB?

 

[dread]

You can use white spirit, but it's a heavier form of naphta, which means you can't freeze precipitate, you can only evaporate it. It will take a long time to evaporate too. And the product will not be very pure, as the heavier naphta is not very selective in what it pulls.