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Ketamine to help with Depression

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obliguhl

obliguhl

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There has been ongoing research (Google Scholar) into this and it appears to be reaching a point where doctors open up shop to treat Depression with ridiciolously expensive Ketamine infusions. They're also developing (more profitable? Patentable?) analogues - so there could be some merrit to the claims that it is indeed antidepressive. Current Research appears to agree:

The N-methyl-d-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist ketamine has rapid and potent antidepressant effects in treatment-resistant major depressive disorder and bipolar depression. These effects are in direct contrast to the more modest effects seen after weeks of treatment with classic monoaminergic antidepressants. Numerous open-label and case studies similarly validate ketamine's antidepressant properties. Neurocognitive effects of ketamine in treatment-resistant major depression: association with antidepressant response - Psychopharmacology
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(Underground) research into this has begun much earlier than the recent studies and trials.

Dissociatives - Jamshyd's Medicinal Ketamine Regimen! (V 1.5 - UPDATED 11-22-10)

Still in the middle of being re-written, but should be perfectly useful as-is :) - Jam, May 2011 This is a work in progress, and hopefully it will still be a work in progress after I die. I shall update every time I add something. This is a preliminary and very rough draft, and I expect every...
www.bluelight.org www.bluelight.org

Experience with ketamine therapy for depression

I’ll be using this thread to talk about my use of low-dose ketamine as a mental health aid, specifically for chronic depression that has never been really cured with conventional treatment. My inspiration comes partly from Jamshyd’s Ketamine Regimen, but I did not attach my report to his thread...
www.bluelight.org www.bluelight.org

Two encouraging reports of a low dose treatment plan. The risks of taking ketamine daily for a week are obvious - addiction. Also, i don't believe it is clar, what kind of long term sideeffects might exist for say weekly use of low dose ketamine. This is probably the reason why it is currently only tested on people who have treatment reistant depression (read: Maois, SSRIs etc didn't work). It seems to have a similiar status as Electro Convulsion Therapy as a last resort.

My experience with it is limited to two doses of around 6mg sublingually. The first time, i had trouble sleeping because i felt so dizzy and weird. The next time i took it earlier and felt dizzy and very very sleepy that day.

Anti Depressive effects? Yes, the next day i drank a cup of coffee and felt very energized and more "normal". The coffee was probably a bit too much but i still felt very tired.

The effects lasted that day, and carried over for a bit to the next day - but now it's back to a more depressed state.

This encourages me to try it again, possibly with a higher dosage next. I could not take ketamine hourly though (as proposed in the bluelight treatment protocol) - i would be unable to do anything because of sleepyness. Besides, i seem to REALLY dislike the effects of ketamine so far. The dizziness and this weird metallic spaced out feeling makes me rather uncomfortable, even anxious.

But the prospect of taking it once a week to get some relief, to finally function at a basic level again is very motivating when it comes to deciding wether or not i want to continue my personal trials. Any experience with ketamine in this regard, or discussion of ongoing research is appreciated.
 
I don't have any experience with Ketamine but here are my thoughts.

Efficacy

Ketamine is highly effective for the treatment of acute episodes of depression, but it can lead to addiction and bladder problems when used chronically.

Cost

Ketamine itself is relatively cheap, the high cost is due to the fact it needs to be administered in a clinical setting with proper medical supervision.

Effective Dose

The antidepressant dose of ketamine seems to be around 0.5mg/kg. That's 35mg for someone weighing 70kg, so 6mg is too low a dose.

Route of Administration

The ROA used in the clinical studies was intravenous infusion over 40 minutes or more. Sublingual administration may not have the same effect.

Alternatives

GLYX-13 shows promise as a safer alternative to ketamine.

Scopolamine is another alternative to traditional antidepressants worth exploring.
 
Thanks for your contribution Creo. I want to add something about the route of administration a a new study apparantly tried to answer the question wether or not sublingual doses might work as well:

Intravenous ketamine (0.5 mg/kg) produces robust, rapid and long-lasting antidepressant effects, but is unpractical. Sublingual administration of ketamine renders better bioavailability (∼30%) and less conversion to norketamine than oral administration. We evaluated the therapeutic effects and tolerability of very low dose sublingual (VLDS) racemic ketamine (10 mg from a 100 mg/ml solution for 5 min and swallowed), repeatedly administered every 2–3 d or weekly, in 26 out-patients with refractory unipolar or bipolar depression. According to patients’ reports, VLDS ketamine produced rapid, clear and sustained effects, improving mood level and stability, cognition and sleep in 20 patients (77%), with only mild and transient light-headedness as a common side-effect (no euphoria, psychotic or dissociative symptoms). Remission remained in some patients after stopping ketamine. Thus, VLDS ketamine may have broad spectrum effects beyond its antidepressant properties, with rapid onset of action, high efficacy, good tolerability and low cost, allowing extended treatment as needed.
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Source: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8992228

That being said, i want to clarify, that i appear to still feel positive effects from it just maybe a little less pronounced.
 
Ketamine has really nasty long-term effects, including severe damage to the bladder and urinary system. It's also addictive in a not-insignificant portion of the using population, so there is that to think about.
In addition to that, the jury is still out on what neurological effects chronic administration of NMDA receptor antagonists are. Even if the Olney's lesions things turns out to be specific just to rats (which it does look like), the effects that long-term DXM use has on addicts is hardly encouraging. They seem to suffer from memory decline, disturbances in visual perception, decreased ability to learn, and deficits in abstract language comprehension.

Blessings
~ND
 
Do you have a source stating that low dose, sub-psychedelic doses also carry a risk of memory and bladder problems? I'm not entirely sure if the problems of DXM and Ketamine Addicts are enough to make these assumptions.

Also, one should not forget that the mortality rate of major depression is 15%.
Moreover, it correlates with Atrophy of the Hippocampus (http://www.pnas.org/content/93/9/3908.full.pdf)

The possible effects of depression on the immune system and the body as a whole are also something to keep in mind.

IF ... there are these sideeffects to low dose ketamine use one should still keep in mind that not treating depression also carries a risk - death.

Have you tried microdosing psilocybin? I too am a depression sufferer and I've found it to be very helpful. Once every other day with between .05-.1g of dried cubensis really helps me out.
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Yes, but at that dose, they just make me feel tired all the time and exhausted. Higher doses are helpful for 3-7 days.
 
No, I'm afraid there are no studies that correlate a dose to the severity of the effects. It's impossible to say one way or another.
I'm not telling you not to do it, or assuming anything either way, I just think it's good to know these things so you can make a fully informed decision.

Blessings
~ND
 
I cant say i know exactly how ketamine works or why you are depressed. I can however share my experiences with the drug and depression.



Ive always had issues with fear and the behaviour of becoming passive in my life, i tend to not do whatever i need to do untill im at a critical level of anxiety and by then it can be to late since anxiety can be very handicapping.



So what ive noticed with dissiociative drugs like K and esp mxe is that they tend to numb me from any fear or anxiety blocking me to do whatever i need to do to feel good.


The problem i see is that for most people it can be very hard to know when you actually need to dose the drug for real reasons and when its just the drug kidnapping your brain so you can party.




Now with mxe which i think is better than K ive already ruined it, i overdid it a bit when it was legal so i dont trust myself ever doing it unless im at a festival or similar.


Ketamine however i dont find quite as enjoyable and i never overdid it either so i dont have this abusive relationship to it.

Also ketamine is very rare in my country so i trust life to give it to me when i need it, so far it has worked out great.

I never look for it but it finds me a couple times per year which is perfect.






Ive also read a bit about 3meopcp, it seems to be a decent substitute for mxe in a medical sense, its less drugging and more functional in its effects.

Lower doses seems to work as a dissiociative ritalin almost.
 
One thing i would like to add though.

I dont think it is a good idea trying to find true healing with dissiociatives alone, to not get out of hand or delusional i think these drugs should be used with psychedelics somehow.

You dont need to take them at the same time or so but you could use ketamine to deal with acute fear or anxiety to be able to take a stronger trip than you would othervice.

Or you could use it just to get courage to fix something in your real life.

For example the day after a mxe dose i was always very social and got things done in a way i could not othervice.

This of course was why it got a bit moreish for me.
 
these drugs should be used with psychedelics somehow.
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Thanks Shrommtroll for your helpful contribution. This is what i tend to think now. I wanted to write about it in the "Plant based depression medicine Thread" but lets keep ketamine out of there...

The way I understand the current healing paradigm of established medicine is to treat Depression with SSRIs to make one more receptive for personal change through therapy. I mean, all these drugs which promote BNDF facilitated brain changes actually enhance memory and learning capabilities through their biological action. It makes sense to assume that Therapy and Medication should go hand in hand.

I'm in my second week of Ketamine treatment now and have noticed, that the initial "boost" sort of went away and gave way to a sense of wellbeing. It's not that i'm free of depression or sorrow or sadness or any other negative & hindering emotion. BUT there is now a force trying to hold the negative parts of my personality in check. This could very well enable real growth.

I noticed having night long nightmares now about relatives who have died. It seems that my mind got the "go ahead" to process some of these ,...well..."negative occurences". Like, some dream facilitated shadowwork.

Well, it could be that psychedelics could take the part of therapy in this play and Ketamin could be the anti-depressant in this equation.

I also noticed that a certain flavor of spiritual teachings resonate with me and helps...Alan Watts, Adyashanti and the likes.
 
I would say no to Ketamine as an anti-depressant. Simply too harmfull and too addictive.
It may take away depression and give you addiction in return. In time addiction will let
depression back in through the backdoor. Long term use lays waste to your bladder & urinary tracts. Seems like it would create more problems than solve them.
 
SKA said:
I would say no to Ketamine as an anti-depressant. Simply too harmfull and too addictive.
It may take away depression and give you addiction in return. In time addiction will let
depression back in through the backdoor. Long term use lays waste to your bladder & urinary tracts. Seems like it would create more problems than solve them.
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I agree there a definetely riscs with trying to use Ketamine for this kind of treatments but it shouldnt be discarded for that reason alone.


Alot of people go batshit crazy from doing psychs but that doesnt mean noone should try them.


But i think it is quite hard to pull of a treatment like this alone and its a shame mainstream healthcare doesnt research it more since the potential is def there.

In one way i think actually more people could be receptive to ketamine therapy than tradiotional psychs since ketamine is far from as traumatising as a heavy dose of ayahuasca or mushrooms.


Also dissiociatives helps with alot of different issues than psychs but they both share some therapeutic effects.


I think the best thing someone could do is write down an extensive plan with what one wants to achieve by doing the therapy and then have a close friend monitor ones intake and make sure you dont cross that thin line of use/abuse.
 
Seems like it would create more problems than solve them.
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I would take painful urination over depression any day. I'd probably amputate bodyparts if that would make me depression free.

since ketamine is far from as traumatising as a heavy dose of ayahuasca or mushrooms.
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I tend to think that psychedelics are in part as effective as they are because they can shake you up. I'd do them more often but i don't have the space to do them.

I'm not too certain ketamine really works now. I have insufficient data and it seems to do something to me which feels beneficial at times. But then i just get back to being super depressed and even writing this takes so much energy.
 
Im sorry to hear that you are feeling so down.

Please share whatever experiences you had and if any positive effects.

Did you only try lower repeated doses for your trials?
 
Yesterday, i have tried 2x10mg with a couple of hours in between each doses. I felt terrible despite that. But today, i woke up feeling energetic and refreshed and the world seemed a little more "possible". It really seems that the positive effects start just after the ketamine completely wears off. It also does not seem to make me as tired as in the beginning which is a good sign. I can't deny that it works in a way, but the main effects seem to be rather short lived. The first day after is usually the most promising day and then it just kinda starts to wear off.

I have to say that ketamine is "mom proved" in the way that she noticed a mood improvement and commented on it. The same happens with mushrooms. This way i know its not in my head.
 
obliguhl said:
I can't deny that it works in a way, but the main effects seem to be rather short lived. The first day after is usually the most promising day and then it just kinda starts to wear off.

I have to say that ketamine is "mom proved" in the way that she noticed a mood improvement and commented on it. The same happens with mushrooms. This way i know its not in my head.
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Whilst it has marked anti-depressant effects in some, K (and other NMDA antagonists) don't produce effects which are sustained; their use, IMO, is to offer the depressed user the chance to see its not perhaps as crap as they imagine AND with appropriate fairly immediate follow-up and psychological therapies to build on this glimpse of a better terrain ahead. A kickstart to leaving the funk the patient is in rather than a cure, an adjunct to a more holistic approach, IMO.
 
their use, IMO, is to offer the depressed user the chance to see its not perhaps as crap as they imagine
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Funny you say that because i noticed that things are indeed as crap as they appear to be while extremely depressed. That despite the newfound energy and such, there are still tremendous conflicts beyond the surface and circumstances which i feel to be out of my control. I believe the major problem is my social anxiety - either that or the depression is stopping me from making appropriate changes.

A kickstart to leaving the funk the patient is in rather than a cure, an adjunct to a more holistic approach, IMO.
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In my (limited) experience, a deep psychedelic experience is waaaaay better suited to do that imho. But then, aren't all anti-depressives meant to help stabilize the patient in order for therapy to work?
 
obliguhl said:
their use, IMO, is to offer the depressed user the chance to see its not perhaps as crap as they imagine
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Funny you say that because i noticed that things are indeed as crap as they appear to be while extremely depressed. That despite the newfound energy and such, there are still tremendous conflicts beyond the surface and circumstances which i feel to be out of my control. I believe the major problem is my social anxiety - either that or the depression is stopping me from making appropriate changes.

A kickstart to leaving the funk the patient is in rather than a cure, an adjunct to a more holistic approach, IMO.
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In my (limited) experience, a deep psychedelic experience is waaaaay better suited to do that imho. But then, aren't all anti-depressives meant to help stabilize the patient in order for therapy to work?
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In theory, yes; in practise however many times patients are scripted the TCA/SSRI/whatever and sent on their less than merry way without any counselling/psychotherapy etc.
 
If BNDF is the mechanism that is enhanced from Ketamine use and ultimately leads to the psycho/biological trauma-processing in dreams..

Then I would atleast consider food supplements to support Ketamine Sessions. Things like, Calcium,Tryptophan,Choline,Tyramine,Amino acids(important).

Also Myelination might be a factor to consider; The Best Foods to Support Myelin Sheath Repair | Livestrong.com

Noticed that Ketamine makes you tired, sounds like you need sleep. Loads of it.

-

Not about Keta but Noopept is similar since it also promoted BNDF. Probably has something to do with NMDA and Acetylcholine receptors. It is highly potent in low doses, short-term effects are barely noticed. But people report long-term effects when taking them for 1-2 weeks. Higher doses produce slight mushroom-like plasticity feel to surrounding environments for me.

I have not personally tried extented periods of noopepet. I take it once in a little while. It is cheap though. And new. If it is has potential is has not been realized by mainstream science just yet. It is prescribed in Russia as a Nootropic. It is usually taken along with Acetylcholine supplements.

What i found with Noopept is an increase in emotional reponse. On days i take it i usually feel suprisingly capable and awake. I sometimes take it to stay awake longer. It's effects are very subtle though, and might be just the thing for you.

People report reverse-tolerance to noopept. it is also very cheap so, i recommend just trying it out.
 
Noticed that Ketamine makes you tired, sounds like you need sleep. Loads of it.
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Why would i need a lot of sleep? I already sleep 8-9 hours daily, sometimes 10. Nightmares demanding their time 😉

I tried noopept a while back and have not noticed any anti-depressant effects. It made me feel pretty ugly though...very anxious and tense.-..felt as if my thoughts would tear my brain apart...
 
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