Let’s have more discussions about nothing

[Joey Joe Joe Jr Shabadoo]

Joey Joe Joe Jr Shabadoo wrote

I define it as potential for something

..i like this definition, for not being 'absolutist' (in a difference sense to my earlier use of the term)

maybe the ultimate question is, "What is potential?"

.

I suppose potential is the opposite to what exists (exists in terms of human experience, what is 'out there') instead being that which could exist, yet doesnt at this moment in the here and now. Maybe!? :lol:

 

[gibran2]

gibran2 wrote

as soon as we speak of nothing, it becomes something. But I maintain the view that “nothing” is an abstraction. It doesn’t exist.

this is, to me, an 'absolutist' perspective..in the model of our universe bubble expanding to create time and space, the expansion is into Nothing
..in other words, there could be something over here, and nothing there..

also, how about something that 'doesn't exist'? never been thought of and never will be..is that 'something'..?

I don’t think the expansion of the universe can be explained so simply – it’s not analogous to filling a balloon with air, where there is the balloon, an “inside” and an “outside”.

You say there is something “over here” and nothing “over there”, but there is no “over there” in the expanding universe – there is no “outside”. So we can’t really say that “nothing” is outside of the universe because the universe has no outside. (According to some cosmologists.)

The phrase “something that doesn’t exist” is a verbal construct and a logical contradiction.

 

[embracethevoid]

I suppose potential is the opposite to what exists (exists in terms of human experience, what is 'out there') instead being that which could exist, yet doesnt at this moment in the here and now. Maybe!? :lol:

[T]here are known knowns; there are things we know we know.
We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns – the ones we don't know we don't know.

 

[longshot]

Joey Joe Joe Jr Shabadoo wrote

I define it as potential for something

..i like this definition, for not being 'absolutist' (in a difference sense to my earlier use of the term)

maybe the ultimate question is, "What is potential?"

.

I like it too. Maybe our unique human skill in this world of "somethings"(matter) is to detect (see/feel/...) potential all around us.
So people can see potential for something. A source for creativity perhaps, the everyday choices we make. If we would stop making choices we would seize to exist. (we can't stop choosing, try it)
Our future is unknown, does not exist. Yet our present is created from that non-existance.



Nice thread OP. I'm at young age myself and I very often think about nothing & everything & what our universe actually is.
Though my english is not as well as yours to write a whole page about it.

"Nothing can only exist in the contrast of something" is a basic rule i've set for all of my "conclusions"/theories.

This link could be of your interest.

I find it extremely difficult to share information about this subject, do you too?

 

[nen888]

longshot wrote

"Nothing can only exist in the contrast of something" is a basic rule i've set for all of my "conclusions"/theories.

i can see this, longshot, and you're english is fine BTW

..it's like Yin & Yang..if i just draw, say, Yang, then i've in effect also drawn Yin, yet there is nothing there...

gibran2 wrote

You say there is something “over here” and nothing “over there”, but there is no “over there” in the expanding universe – there is no “outside”. So we can’t really say that “nothing” is outside of the universe because the universe has no outside. (According to some cosmologists.)

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

The phrase “something that doesn’t exist” is a verbal construct and a logical contradiction.

..ha,ha..i see what you're saying, but this entire discussion has been constructed out of & limited by our verbal language..because something is a logical contradiction (paradox), does not mean it is impossible..
perhaps i should have asked: define the meaning of 'does not exist'..this could be a definition of Nothing, though in my view Nothing exists..(language is funny, isn't it?)

 

[gibran2]

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

If the universe has no “outside”, then the question doesn’t make sense.

It’s equivalent to asking something like “What’s inside the door of the sky?”

 

[nen888]

..now that's funny, gibran 2..:d

 

[Virola78]

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

You are assuming existence is finite, and thereby limited by some'thing' else ('outside')
But that would imply that non-existence is existing (like there are two sort of existence.)
Can there be two sorts of white? Can white be contrasted by white?
Can two things have 1 essence without being the same?

I think that if it is existing, it is not not-existing.
Logically, existence (universe, nature, god) is infinite. It is not contrasted by 'other sort of existence'.

Spinoza is still alive : )

 

[longshot]

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

If the universe has no “outside”, then the question doesn’t make sense.

It’s equivalent to asking something like “What’s inside the door of the sky?”

Our universe has multiple histories and multiple futures. These multiple universes could have different laws of physics ("The Great Design" Stephen Hawking)


Outside our expanding universe is everything and as we call it "nothing". All possibilities lie there (all other possible universes created from big bang).
There is actually is no "outside our universe" because the 4th dimension is time/duration. So you actually can't imagine a volumetric "outside" our universe.

Everything outside our universe is not in here. And it can come into existance (here), but only in forms that our physics allow it.
(same like you can only choose between choices/information of which you know. You can't choose the color "Herppahderp" if you don't know it's existance)

And you can't make something random pop up into existance because it's previous state couldn't allow it because it has to follow the laws of physics.

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

You are assuming existence is finite, and thereby limited by some'thing' else ('outside')
But that would imply that non-existence is existing (like there are two sort of existence.)
Can there be two sorts of white? Can white be contrasted by white?
Can two things have 1 essence without being the same?

I think that if it is existing, it is not not-existing.
Logically, existence (universe, nature, god) is infinite. It is not contrasted by 'other sort of existence'.

Spinoza is still alive : )

Rather a sort of black and a sort of white. Which are similar in the way they are opposites.
Yet black is "no matter" because no light. And white is all spectrums of light combined. (Im correct about the white light no?)

Black holes can be used as example here.

 

[DoctorMantus]

Why does anything exist at all?

Why is there this great vast place that we call the universe and all these things that fill it?

Why isn’t there just nothing?

1- that i a very good question there are probably millions that asked that exact question, me being one of them, IMO, the best response i have is we are pretty F-ing lucky. before us i think there was 5 major species dinosaurs being one of them, maybe that didn't work out idk.

But what i know is that we surely didn't end up here for nothing, so What "we are just like the rest of the species we just evolved further than the next guy" before we were born way before and buildings, we actually lived in the woods in nature, which is a large part of this planet, but living in the woods being spiritual, dancing around fires chants to spirits and ancestors, the Indian tribes i bet were real intune with nature and life, idk the point i am trying to get at is that it definately feels that we have been way outta of tune with something and its been lost for a long time.

when you say why isnt there just nothing, i am sorry but it honestly imo sounds depressing, Do you want nothing? are you not happy were you are right now?

yes we live in this vast universe and i couldn't be happier, the universe is full of history and "time" that has past by, its all an evolving process, that obviously has to lead somewhere.

 

[Joey Joe Joe Jr Shabadoo]

Why does anything exist at all?

Why is there this great vast place that we call the universe and all these things that fill it?

Why isn’t there just nothing?

1- that i a very good question there are probably millions that asked that exact question, me being one of them, IMO, the best response i have is we are pretty F-ing lucky. before us i think there was 5 major species dinosaurs being one of them, maybe that didn't work out idk.

But what i know is that we surely didn't end up here for nothing, so What "we are just like the rest of the species we just evolved further than the next guy" before we were born way before and buildings, we actually lived in the woods in nature, which is a large part of this planet, but living in the woods being spiritual, dancing around fires chants to spirits and ancestors, the Indian tribes i bet were real intune with nature and life, idk the point i am trying to get at is that it definately feels that we have been way outta of tune with something and its been lost for a long time.

when you say why isnt there just nothing, i am sorry but it honestly imo sounds depressing, Do you want nothing? are you not happy were you are right now?

yes we live in this vast universe and i couldn't be happier, the universe is full of history and "time" that has past by, its all an evolving process, that obviously has to lead somewhere.

What you have said here is just a story you have heard and subsequently tell yourself, as is everything else. We don't know whats going on (also a story i tell myself :twisted

 

[longshot]

Why does anything exist at all?

Why is there this great vast place that we call the universe and all these things that fill it?

Why isn’t there just nothing?

"But what i know is that we surely didn't end up here for nothing"

Hehe there we go again. "For nothing"
"Nothing" does not exist in the same way "something" does exist imo

 

[nen888]

Virola78wrote

You are assuming existence is finite, and thereby limited by some'thing' else ('outside')
But that would imply that non-existence is existing (like there are two sort of existence.)

..i was using a metaphorical example..
i could have instead asked: "what's outside the infinite universe?"

existence/non-existence are, like longshot says, defined by eachother; opposite ends of the same pole (if you'll permit another metaphor)

we have reached the boundary of what our human language can describe..
...

 

[longshot]

There is "I" and everything else?

 

[embracethevoid]

There is nothing outside of the infinite universe.

This is not the limit of language, this is simply where the circular/tautological nature of language comes out in full force. It's the limit of a brain that has not yet learnt how dualities create mindless paradoxes where none actually exist.

I.e. "There is nothing outside of the infinite universe."

"There exists nothing outside of the infinite universe."

"There exists no thing outside of the infinite universe as the "infinite universe" is what we have defined as "every thing"."

"'Nothing' does not exist" = "'Something' does exist" "Things that do not exist do not exist" = "Things that exist exist" = "Nothing exists as non-existence"

The sooner you jump out of the silly trap of words you have placed yourself in the better. Realise all you're doing by talking about these "deep cosmic paradoxes" is befuddling yourself with your own language about things that are so obvious even a 6 year old wouldn't question it.

*Emptiness is form, form is emptiness* - There is no such thing as "space" in which things "exist" nor is there time in which things "pass". Rather things ARE space and their passing IS time as anyone who understands measurements or relativity will tell you.

That is to say, what we observe comes FIRST, then come all the descriptions of it such as "space" and "time" and "metres" and "seconds". True reality is measured in dimensionless parameters, proportions. You are not "6 foot tall", you are 6 times taller than that block you call a foot.

To understand how absurd all these questions are at the end of it, what's outside of YOU?

 

[polytrip]

..then what is 'outside the expanding universe'? perhaps Nothing="does not exist"..?

If the universe has no “outside”, then the question doesn’t make sense.

Maybe there are parallel universes that have no relation whatsoever with our universe. If that would be so, i would consider it to be ouside of our universe, even if those places would be inside our universe.

If a parallel universe would have no relation with our universe and would be totally out of reach in every way, then maybe you could speak of nothing from the perspective of our universe. Just like i sometimes say that my wallet is empty while in fact it´s filled with molecules and exotic particles that contstantly pop in and out of existence.

There is just nothing there that fit´s our domain of existence.

 

[longshot]

There is nothing outside of the infinite universe.

This is not the limit of language, this is simply where the circular/tautological nature of language comes out in full force. It's the limit of a brain that has not yet learnt how dualities create mindless paradoxes where none actually exist.

I.e. "There is nothing outside of the infinite universe."

"There exists nothing outside of the infinite universe."

"There exists no thing outside of the infinite universe as the "infinite universe" is what we have defined as "every thing"."

"'Nothing' does not exist" = "'Something' does exist" "Things that do not exist do not exist" = "Things that exist exist" = "Nothing exists as non-existence"

The sooner you jump out of the silly trap of words you have placed yourself in the better. Realise all you're doing by talking about these "deep cosmic paradoxes" is befuddling yourself with your own language about things that are so obvious even a 6 year old wouldn't question it.

*Emptiness is form, form is emptiness* - There is no such thing as "space" in which things "exist" nor is there time in which things "pass". Rather things ARE space and their passing IS time as anyone who understands measurements or relativity will tell you.

That is to say, what we observe comes FIRST, then come all the descriptions of it such as "space" and "time" and "metres" and "seconds". True reality is measured in dimensionless parameters, proportions. You are not "6 foot tall", you are 6 times taller than that block you call a foot.

To understand how absurd all these questions are at the end of it, what's outside of YOU?

Wise words in a basics starters package
Maybe we should be the first the start cataloging these language paradoxes. Prob there is some site about it

 

[DeMenTed]

We will be like dinosaurs one day. Just another extinct species that roamed the earth and space for a while.

Maybe the next evolution of earth lifeforms will explore further afield like different dimensions and time zones etc...

 

[longshot]

We will be like dinosaurs one day. Just another extinct species that roamed the earth and space for a while.

Maybe the next evolution of earth lifeforms will explore further afield like different dimensions and time zones etc...

Assuming the human race will extinct some day, I agree.
One of the biggest yet-to-come problems are that we don't destroy ourselves

 

[jbark]

NOTHING is contained in the set of EVERYTHING, by definition.


Figga dat won owt.

:shock:

JBArk