Losing virginity... Time to pop the DMT cherry... First extraction

[EZ4U2Shoot]

(NOTE EDIT: This is Swims first attempt at getting the Spice to flow. He is using 50 grams of powdered MHRB and started with Nomans tek. I will be editing this post as the process progresses rather than posting to the end of this thread. In doing this I hope it makes it easier for other newbees to learn from Swims experiences.)

Well, Swim received 1 pound of MHRB and 1 pound of Rue seeds yesterday. Now it's time to lose his virginity and extract the Spice. Then let the cherry pop and see where the elves take him.

Swim wonders how important precision accuracy is in making the spice. He hasn't received his weight scale yet. Swim suspects that precision accuracy is more important with dosing than with extracting. Swim plans to loosely follow Nomans tek but is going to start with about 50 grams of powdered MHRB. Swim is also going to do the Harmaloid freebase tek listed here as well on about 50 grams of Rue seeds.

Since the MHRB is powdered he is going to go with about 65 or 70 ml water and 60gm of lye to start with (possibly adding more lye if not a slimy black).

Should Swim add the lye to the water then add the powdered MHRB to the lye/water mixture, or should he add the powdered MHRB to the water first, mix well, then add the lye to the MHRB/water mixture and shake the shite out of it?

Then after waiting the appropriate time, Swim will then add about 50ml naptha and roll over (not shake) and agitate every 10-15 minutes for an hour. He will do this 2 or 3 times. Then on the 3rd and/or 4th pulls he will heat the naptha in a hot water bath first and leave the last one in for about 20 hours. Then tomorrow he will switch to touline and try to pull some jungle spice.

Does this sound good so far?

EDIT:
OK, I figured for the sake of anyone reading this for educational purposes it would be nice if I put all of the important info about what has occurred here at the top of the thread. So, from here on, I will edit this post and put the important highlights here in order as they occur.

NOTE:After the initial post, Swim went with Dee Em Tea's advice and added the lye to the water and then added the lye/water mixture to the MHRB powder. However, in doing so, he did it rather cautiously because, never having worked with it before, he was afraid that if he dumped the entire amount of lye into the water all at once then the water might get so hot so quickly that the jar would not be able to be picked up or the water would boil over.

In this process, Swim learned that if you just add the lye very slowly by sprinkling a little in and stirring until dissolved then heat doesn't seem to be a big issue. This might not be entirely the case with larger amounts, but Swim was working with a quart jar. Swim might mix the MHRB with the water first next time to see the color changes. It is our understanding that the MHRB powder should be more red when it is only mixed with water and no lye. Bye adding the lye to the watery MHRB until it turns black (and a little extra for good measure) might give Swim a better idea of just how much lye is required with powder as opposed to regular bark.

OK... Partial success... At the very least, Swim knows it can be done. Swim is going to evap what he has done because the crystals were hard stuck on the bottom, but it did not seem like there was very much at all. Swim doesn't think it should make a great difference, but he only had the one small jar to put it in so he combined 3 attempted pulls into 1 jar. It was in the freezer for a day and a half and after it is in the freezer it gets very cloudy.

There is one thing that Swim thinks might be the problem. He used powdered MHRB and it seems that the lye/water/MHRB mixture is very thick. He used more water/lye mixture to mix with it than was called for but it was still as this as motor oil.

Should the lye/water/MHRB mixture be as thick and as dark as motor oil?

At this point Swim hopes that is the case because he went ahead and mixed another lye/water mixture of 1 gram lye per 15 milliliters of water. He split the current solution into 2 quart jars and mixed in 300 milliliters of water/lye into each mixture to thin it out quite a bit.

Can someone tell me if Swim did the right or wrong thing?

Neither one of us had access to the internet and he got impatient. I told him, just be patient and wait, but no, he doesn't want to listen to me.

NOTE: At this point Swim did not follow through and evap the lot. Instead, he decided to go with his gut feeling and added more lye/water mixture. After doing so, he was feeling kinda nervous and worried that he might have ruined his project but he did get confirmation from XENONSION who indicated to use about 25% more of both lye and water. Swim still didn't have much to come out with 25% more but finally by the 4th attempt to pull he had used about 70-80% more lye and water both. What follows is what I wrote after the 4th attempt with, what I think is good success.



OK, this is what Swim has achieved so far.
(EDIT: This is using 50 grams of MHRB and Nomans tek with some alterations.)

First, after finding that the solution had the consistency of very thick oil to thin tar, he decided to add more water/lye mixture. This pic is what he had after adding a little more. He actually added even more after this pic because it still wasn't giving up the Spice.

(EDIT: I didn't notice till now, but do you see that "Angels Gather Here"?)

(EDIT: The pic above is with about 25% more lye water. Still quite thick.)

Swim tried 1 pull before this pic, 2 pulls with what is in the pic, then 1 pull after adding more water/lye after this pic. After each pull he attempted to freeze it and then combined it with the next pull. Each time there was absolutely minimal crystal formation. That is until the 4th pull which occurred after after adding even more lye/water to what is in the pic.

This is what formed after freezing the 4 combined pulls.

This is the same thing but with a DVD and a CD so you can tell how large the casserole dish is. It's small.

Swim actually just poured off the naptha and left this to dry. He has the remaining naptha and will combine it later and evap it because it is obvious there is still quite a bit of Spice in it. After this dried, Swim took a razor and scraped all the frosty stuff together and this is what he has.

And since Swim is concerned that gremlins might try to steal his Spice, he instructed his humongous watch dog to guard the Spice.

All of this Spice has not been measure or cleaned yet. Swim will clean it and weigh it when he gets a scale that is precise enough to measure it. Swim is now attempting another pull with naptha and will freeze it as well to see what comes out. He has decided to continue to pull with naptha until it nolonger gives anything of significance up. That might be this time around, it might not. The current pull he is getting ready to freeze has been sitting in there for almost two days and he will freeze it and do one more hot naptha pull that he will leave in for 3 or 4 days during his work week (which is on the weekend).

When the Spice no longer flows then Swim will try pulling with touline.

Also, since Swim doesn't have any scales, can someone give a guesstimate as to how much Spice is pictured there? That is a quarter to give an idea of how high the very fine powdered Spice is.


********************************************************************************************************




OK, here is the final report of Swims first attempt at harvesting the Spice.

Swim expected about 250 milligrams from the 50 grams of pre-powdered MHRB since the tek suggests about 0.5%. Swim, never having seen it before, just suspected that he only had about 100 to 150 milligrams in that pile beside the quarter. He saw a picture of what was supposed to be 50 or 60 milligrams on a dime before and figured that 100 to 150 seemed like it would compare to that picture. If I recall correctly, El Ka Bong suggested that it looked like Swim had about 500 milligrams there.

Well, El Ka Bong may have been pretty close. When Swim was finished freeze preciping his 5th pull it didn't yield very much at all. It was still more than his first 3 combined pulls but couldn't even compare to that 4th pull. It turned out that it seems like almost everything came out all at once on that 4th pull. The 6th pull only seemed to have a little oil with some grainy specks of Spice in it. In fact, when he tried to freeze precip the 6th pull he got a couple dots and had to evap it.

So Swim gathered all of it up and cleaned it twice with ammonia. The first ammonia wash did seam to take away a little of the spice. Swim still did not have scales to tell how much but he did a second ammonia wash just to make sure. He couldn't tell if there was any loss from the second and the only way to know for sure is if he would have been able to measure it before cleaning it. Needless to say, any loss on the second wash was insignificant.

Anyway, it doesn't have a bit of lye smell, taste, or sting to it. On the tip of his tongue it is very slightly numbing but it doesn't burn or sting. Swim says he can feel it, but other than not tasting like gourmet cooking it isn't absolutely nasty or anything like that, but it doesn't taste too good either. The smell is very distinct and it is understandable why so many say it is "plasticy".

Finally, Swim received his scale in the mail. The first thing he did was calibrate it. It is a diamond scale that measures up to 10 grams with 0.001 accuracy. He would have liked a more precise scale, but once they got into fractions of milligrams they got very expensive. (Swim dreams of owning a pharmaceutical scale.) The next thing he did was to use the "tare" function to measure his filter and zero it down. Then when he measured the final yield he was very pleasantly surprised. It came out to be 0.675 grams. It was bordering 0.675 and 0.676 as once in a while that last digit would ever so quickly blink to 7 then back to 6.

Yes, that is a 1.35% yield and there is absolutely no worry about having a load of contamination. There is minimal possibility that there might have been a little honey oil adding weight, but it is not likely. Swim did use the dish he used for making honey oil but it seems the honey oil stays in the naptha and does not fall out in the freezer. After all 6 pulls were freeze precipped Swim didn't even run it through a filter. He just poured it off into a separate jar. The first bit that was from the first 4 combined pulls was very dark yellow which is where the honey oil was. He then evapped that. It seemed to stay a thick oil with some granular specks in it. So a couple days after popping his DMT cherry smoking of the Spice he decided to go ahead and scrape up the oil and smoke it too. Swim says it had a little spice in it for sure, but it was definitely honey oil without a doubt. Swim also decided to try to freeze evap pure honey oil but absolutely nothing came out. This is why Swim is so positive that the yield cant be very influenced if at all. Now swim has to evap and dry his honey oil. He is afraid it will never again solidify.

Currently, Swim has touline pulls absorbing. He heated it before adding to the soup and it has been sitting for a few days now. He will pull it out later for evap to see if he can get the red spice. He has also started a new harvesting project with 120 grams of the same powdered MHRB and will be able to keep closer track of it but he does expect it to be fairly consistent with this at about 1.35% yields.

Now, to continue answering questions from El Ka Bong, a quote of Swims account of the smoking of and of the journey entailed is here -> 65 milligrams for the very first time smoking DMT... HOLY SHIT!!! I will note that there was some confusion (mostly mixed up and jumbled numbers) about dosages for different substances taken in different methods. Ultimately resulting in Swim deciding to smoke 65 milligrams just to test it out. Yes, that's right. Swim completely and thoroughly smoked 65 milligrams the very first time he has ever smoked the Spice. So check out the Journey Report -> 65 milligrams for the very first time smoking DMT... HOLY SHIT!!! It was a journey and not a trip.


Well, just to conclude this Swim would like to thank a number of people in the Nexus.

The Traveler for maintaining the Nexus and all the wonderful advice and inspirations he gives.
SyZyGyPSy for wonderful advice and guidance, especially on where to acquire the MHRB
Noman for providing his tek and some good advice
Dee Em Tea for replies and guidance
XENONSION for guidance and advice
AstronomyDomine for encouragement and comradery
mitch for being cool enough to jump to defense
adrian89987 for providing encouraging information
Big Inhale for encouraging information
El Ka Bong for being aurnery and offensive, yet pleasantly enjoying to argue and debate with
...and a few others whos names have slipped the mind

 

[Dee Em Tea]

Should Swim add the lye to the water then add the powdered MHRB to the lye/water mixture, or should he add the powdered MHRB to the water first, mix well, then add the lye to the MHRB/water mixture and shake the shite out of it?

The best thing to do is, to add the ley to the water first. Because to disolve 60 grams of ley, you'd need quite a bit of water, otherwise this wil get screamingly hot.:twisted: So you'd end up with more than the 70ml. of water you start out with.
I think to add the ley first is the way to go though.
Anyway, the rest sounds perfect 8)

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

OK... Partial success... At the very least, Swim knows it can be done. Swim is going to evap what he has done because the crystals were hard stuck on the bottom, but it did not seem like there was very much at all. Swim doesn't think it should make a great difference, but he only had the one small jar to put it in so he combined 3 attempted pulls into 1 jar. It was in the freezer for a day and a half and after it is in the freezer it gets very cloudy.

There is one thing that Swim thinks might be the problem. He used powdered MHRB and it seems that the lye/water/MHRB mixture is very thick. He used more water/lye mixture to mix with it than was called for but it was still as this as motor oil.

Should the lye/water/MHRB mixture be as thick and as dark as motor oil?

At this point Swim hopes that is the case because he went ahead and mixed another lye/water mixture of 1 gram lye per 15 milliliters of water. He split the current solution into 2 quart jars and mixed in 300 milliliters of water/lye into each mixture to thin it out quite a bit.

Can someone tell me if Swim did the right or wrong thing?

Neither one of us had access to the internet and he got impatient. I told him, just be patient and wait, but no, he doesn't want to listen to me.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

Swim is also curious about something else. Because I believe I read something from Noman that said his tek puts the lye on the high side, Swim wants to know how likely it is that too high of a PH (or too much lye) would destroy the Spice.

 

[Big Inhale]

Swim is also curious about something else. Because I believe I read something from Noman that said his tek puts the lye on the high side, Swim wants to know how likely it is that too high of a PH (or too much lye) would destroy the Spice.

the ph goes to thirteen with nomans tek and I think thats as high as it can go and yes it looks like motor oil just measure out how much naptha you put to how much comes so you can tell if any is stuck in your base solution

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

Swim is also curious about something else. Because I believe I read something from Noman that said his tek puts the lye on the high side, Swim wants to know how likely it is that too high of a PH (or too much lye) would destroy the Spice.

the ph goes to thirteen with nomans tek and I think thats as high as it can go and yes it looks like motor oil just measure out how much naptha you put to how much comes so you can tell if any is stuck in your base solution

So, did adding additional lye/water help, hurt, or neither? It still looks like used motor oil. The main difference after adding the extra lye/water mixture it is now much thinner. Before, it was extremely thick. It was so thick that when you rolled the jar end over end that you could no longer see the line of where the goo comes to in the jar. It would coat the inside. I'd almost say, it was more like hot thin tar than it was oil.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

OK, So I understand that adding the lye/water probably helped.

Now what I'm wondering is if when using powdered MHRB you should shoot for a slightly lower PH. Does anyone know for sure? I was thinking that since 13 seems to be the lucky number w/ regular MHRB if maybe it was too high for the fine powder. Do you think maybe 11.5-12 or 12.5 would do well enough? How high of a PH is really required in order to convert the DMT into it's base? How high low of a PH can you go and still avoid emulsions? How high can the PH go before it starts damaging the DMT molecules?

One other question. Will DMT evaporate with the naptha? It seems that Swim had some crystal forming on the underside of the lid and is curious.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

EDIT: I have moved this to the end of the first post in this subject thread.

 

[El Ka Bong]

"Lye on the High side" .. Huh ..?! you think..?! Adding just more water would have kept the pH at 13.98 anyways ...

"Lucky Numbers" .. !?... why are we even using lye in the first place ? Figure out what the lye is for - we're not making soap ! !... answering that question first, will then point one towards figuring out how much lye to use, EXACTLY !.. no guessing, or shovelling...

I see my posts are just getting editted out - I cause too much cognitive dissonance in the lye-eater camp.

So this is a test ... !

EDIT:
Am I being Censorsed ? ... or did I forget to hit the "post" tab after typing a reply .? ... I think had commented about the picture of the generous yeild in the second tray - from just 50 g MHRB.

 

[El Ka Bong]

Ok, a Chemistry lesson ! Let's see if this get editted out !

Dmt is soluble in water at acid pH, 'acid' meaning there are hoards of H+'s floating around. This means pH of 2 - 4 is required to make dmt disssolve in water. Dmt in acidified water 'catches' an acidic H+ onto it's 'amine' group NH2)and becomes a charged molecule as 'dmt-H+', which is totally, invisibly dissolved in water.

Dmt is NOT soluble in water above the pH of 8.73 - this is called the pKa of dmt. Dmt 'clumps' up in water (becomes a cloudy flocculant) when it loses it's H+ charge above pH 8.73 - so when it becomes insoluble you can see it !

At a pH of 8.73 dmt in water is switching between dmt-freebase and dmt-salt, and equal amounts exist in solution. At pH 8.73 there are less H+'s around, so dmt loses its charge. The dmt-free base quickly looks for another H+ floating around, or it'll run into the naphtha where it can live as a freebase.

We want to force it all into freebase form with just a 'nudge' of pH increase above the pKa of 8.73. We don't need a a shovel full of lye, and this is the simple reason why:

The rule of thumb in organic chemistry is That You simply have to basify 2.5 pH points above the pKa of an alkaloid (MAXIMUM)to make it ALL insoluble in water ! That is it ! NO MORE lye needed than a pH of 8.73 + 2.5 = 11.23 ! This is the exact pH that the solution turns jet-black - STOP adding lye when it goes black !

Lye (NaOH) makes :OH- which will tear into the alkaloid molecular structures, chemically breaking them down, oxidizing the dmt. The Na+ (sodium) from lye is also a contaminant you don't need to shovel in. You'll only have to 'wash' it out.

When doing it right and not by "lucky numbers", using an acid-base tek, it is wise to have a layer of naphtha already present on the purple, acid extract before basifying - this way the dmt-freebase will have a 'safe-refuge' to flee to when the pH rises above 8.73. Dmt in a lye stew at a pH of any higher than 8.73 will deteriorate with exposure to :OH- and over time it will be chemically broken down - you'll get less yeild.

Remember 1.0 pH point rise is a X10 increase in OH- (alkalinity), so a 2.0 pH rise above the pKa of dmt is a X100 increase ! 100 times overkill already ! The 'Marsofold A/B tek' also calls for pH of 13 I think, and that too is overkill, and makes no sense.

A pH of 13 !! That's like 10,000 times more lye than the pKa of dmt ! ! ..! Ludicrous ! you just end up washing, recrystalazing and losing yeild if you overdose on lye ! The pH scale doesn't go past 14 ... 1 to 14.

The dmt molecule has a pKa of 8.73 - this magic number means that at the pH of 8.73 dmt is able to be both dmt-freebase and dmt-salt (dmt-H+). When using lye, (ie 'basifying')you just need to tip the scale so the dmt-freebase form is preferred, and have a safe-refuge layer of naphtha for the dmt-freebase to run to.

And if my comments cause you lye-eaters any grief, instead of deleting my posts just go ask a real organic chemist about how the pKa of alkaloids is used in acid-base extraction teks. And then come back and correct me if I'm wrong - I only know my bit of experience, and since I type so much, .. and we all love to read these threads, stop the censoring !

 

[adrian89987]

Lye (NaOH) makes :OH- which will tear into the alkaloid molecular structures, chemically breaking them down, oxidizing the dmt. The Na+ (sodium) from lye is also a contaminant you don't need to shovel in. You'll only have to 'wash' it out.

When doing it right and not by "lucky numbers", using an acid-base tek, it is wise to have a layer of naphtha already present on the purple, acid extract before basifying - this way the dmt-freebase will have a 'safe-refuge' to flee to when the pH rises above 8.73. Dmt in a lye stew at a pH of any higher than 8.73 will deteriorate with exposure to :OH- and over time it will be chemically broken down - you'll get less yeild.

Remember 1.0 pH point rise is a X10 increase in OH- (alkalinity), so a 2.0 pH rise above the pKa of dmt is a X100 increase ! 100 times overkill already ! The 'Marsofold A/B tek' also calls for pH of 13 I think, and that too is overkill, and makes no sense.

A pH of 13 !! That's like 10,000 times more lye than the pKa of dmt ! ! ..! Ludicrous ! you just end up washing, recrystalazing and losing yeild if you overdose on lye ! The pH scale doesn't go past 14 ... 1 to 14.

The dmt molecule has a pKa of 8.73 - this magic number means that at the pH of 8.73 dmt is able to be both dmt-freebase and dmt-salt (dmt-H+). When using lye, (ie 'basifying')you just need to tip the scale so the dmt-freebase form is preferred, and have a safe-refuge layer of naphtha for the dmt-freebase to run to.

And if my comments cause you lye-eaters any grief, instead of deleting my posts just go ask a real organic chemist about how the pKa of alkaloids is used in acid-base extraction teks. And then come back and correct me if I'm wrong - I only know my bit of experience, and since I type so much, .. and we all love to read these threads, stop the censoring !

The OH- ion will not tear into it's molecular structure. Can you provide a source where you found this? Just because OTHER molecules can be destroyed at a high pH does not mean that DMT will. DMT is not destroyed at high pH's. If it is then how do you explain people doing STB techniques getting EXACTLY as good as yields as the A/B when they have finished pulling (yes I'm speaking of 1%+ for me at least). While yes there exist Na+ ions floating around IN THE WATER they are not soluble at all in the naphtha. NaOH is very very polar and dissociates in water making hydrogen bonds with the H2O molecules. In other words, if the Hydrogen bonds are collectively strong enough to pull apart ionic bonds, then why would they not be strong enough to keep the NaOH dissolved in water and not in a non-polar substance that it is NOT soluble in.
People use such a large amount of lye while using a STB technique also because the cel walls of the bark need to be broken down further. Doing the Acid (enough to solubilize all of the DMT anyway) removed the DMT salts from the plant so that a higher pH isn't necessary to keep a thin solution.
Yes I am sure that chemists use that technique from an acid-base extraction. However, this is simply not necessary. Acid-Base extractions are so common place in extracting alkaloids because the large majority of plants have a large amount of (non-polar) chlorophyll and other plant oils. MHRB, as you can see pretty clearly, does not contain much chlorophyll at all. If you are a chemist by profession doing extractions on plants, the most sure fire way to get a pure product is to do acid-base extractions on most all plant extractions. Just because it suits THEIR purposes better does not mean it suits OURS. I know exactly what needs to be done to extract from this plant and get a pure product. Chemists will not always know this and might as well remove any possible fats present.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

"Lye on the High side" .. Huh ..?! you think..?! Adding just more water would have kept the pH at 13.98 anyways ...

"Lucky Numbers" .. !?... why are we even using lye in the first place ? Figure out what the lye is for - we're not making soap ! !... answering that question first, will then point one towards figuring out how much lye to use, EXACTLY !.. no guessing, or shovelling...

I see my posts are just getting editted out - I cause too much cognitive dissonance in the lye-eater camp.

So this is a test ... !

I am being Censorsed !

Well, I haven't seen any of your spouts edited or deleted, but if it is happening, it's simply because you have a tendency to be a bit of an ass about the subject. I'm not trying to be insulting, just stating the truth as I have observed it. You have a habit of resorting to childish name calling such as your favorite "lye eaters" and as such I really wonder how old you are. You act like a high school kid that had a chemistry class and now believe that you know it all.

I have consulted a professional chemist (18 year veteran currently working for GE) and he seems to understand the benefit of raising the PH well beyond what is needed. I will also add that he stated simply to not even listen to you because you may somewhat "know" what you are talking about, but you don't "understand" what you are talking about and your arguments, while understandable, are irrelevant and make no difference, and your lye and high PH prejudice in such types of extractions is humorous because any professional understands that the rules in the books never work out the way they say when applied in practice.

The only other thing I would say is this. Perhaps, you should consider not using any kind of psychedelics until you work a few things out with yourself. You just seem to have so much hostility or disdain for people who don't do things the way you think they should be done.

On that note, I can afford no more time as I need to spend some time with my wife. I do wish you the best and hope you find serenity, happiness, and content.

 

[El Ka Bong]

hey ! love peace and happiness folks ! I know who I am, and a forum is for exchanging accurate info - I don't know-it all, but I think I know enough to pipe up. It's been a while since I vented my opinion about misinformation, egging on the lye eaters !

I love the chemistry facts, keep them coming ! My 'attitude' is intended to instigate discussion ... not flaming ...


But, please what does this mean,

"...because any professional understands that the rules in the books never work out the way they say when applied in practice. " .. what do you practice "professionally" like this !? I hope it's not bridge building or organic chemistry !

This is just an inane excuse to be unsafe, and to perpetuate ignorance.


I rant about Safety first ! And the 'beat-the-dmt-out-of-the-MHRB STB tek is prone to unclean product, and requires more steps to get less yeild. STB's are going to mislead newbs' sense of safety - just look at the use of lye that goes on, enough to contaminate the product, break glassware or ruin the dmt experince !

Perhaps 'chemists' with good MHRB can do STBs satisfactorily, but dumb-ass 'lazy' kids and the lot who think there is a short cut make bad dmt, or have a bad first-impression. I have seen this happen over and over, and so I think understand the reasons why I get all uppity at what seems to be cases of the blind-leading-the-blind.

Correct my chemistry please I'm ok with that - pKa to contaminants. But lye's constituents will be present in almost all dmt extracts unless you wash and recrystalize - that is measuable fact with an IR or NMR machine, or simply your tongue ! You can show yourself with your tongue that there are more contaminants in dmt precipitated out of lye-stew teks compared to teks that are quick when basifying. I choose A-B separation since you get, very reliably pure dmt, and you get ALL the dmt out of the MHRB in 2 acid soaks (> 0.9% yeild seems good!).

An easy experiment to show if Lye makes it into naphtha - mix pH 13 water and naphtha for 24 hours (cook and simulate STB), then pull off naphtha and evaporate all to see what you get - lye or no lye. Anyone done this..!? Technically it's not the same as with the MHRB in the stew.

But NaOH is uncharged, and if any :OH- meets up with Na+ floating around, they'll bond for an instant, lose ionic charge - and that's when they can pop into the naphtha, and 'hide' as NaOH ... no ..?! Alkaloids and pigments will pick up the Na+ and OH- too, so we can't assume purity will result when shovelling lye around.

And speaking chemistry still, plant-parts like leaves and stems need defatting due to pigments, and chlorophyll is a fatty-pigment not an alkaloid, so you separate then differently. That's why MHRB is so handy - no fatty pigments, just alkaloid-pigments (purples !).

Another thing I believe is that MHRB has hundreds of alkaloids, and if we knew each one's pKa, then we could exactly spearate some of the ones we want - pure Yohimbine from dmt from some other MAOI if the pKas were 7.2, 8.7 and 10.9 respectively. In any tek used to get dmt out of a plant tissue, you can't overlook pKa since OTHER alkaloids may come out too at the pH you're using ! a pH of 13 .. ! heck some said get it up to "15" . !

Hey - here's an old analogy - if you were handed the keys to a brand new, $250,000 8-speed, manual shifting Ferrari and you only knew how to drive a car with an automatic transmission, then would you learn to drive manual-shift first or just go out and grind the gears on the Ferrrari ..!? Imagine it was God that gave you those keys ... ! ..!?

And so EZ4u' ... next we want to hear reports of the de-virgination voyage, and then some !

 

[adrian89987]

An easy experiment to show if Lye makes it into naphtha - mix pH 13 water and naphtha for 24 hours (cook and simulate STB), then pull off naphtha and evaporate all to see what you get - lye or no lye. Anyone done this..!? Technically it's not the same as with the MHRB in the stew.

But NaOH is uncharged, and if any :OH- meets up with Na+ floating around, they'll bond for an instant, lose ionic charge - and that's when they can pop into the naphtha, and 'hide' as NaOH ... no ..?! Alkaloids and pigments will pick up the Na+ and OH- too, so we can't assume purity will result when shovelling lye around.

And speaking chemistry still, plant-parts like leaves and stems need defatting due to pigments, and chlorophyll is a fatty-pigment not an alkaloid, so you separate then differently. That's why MHRB is so handy - no fatty pigments, just alkaloid-pigments (purples !).

Hey - here's an old analogy - if you were handed the keys to a brand new, $250,000 8-speed, manual shifting Ferrari and you only knew how to drive a car with an automatic transmission, then would you learn to drive manual-shift first or just go out and grind the gears on the Ferrrari ..!? Imagine it was God that gave you those keys ... ! ..!?

I have attempted to get naOH to dissolve in very very hot naphtha without any luck. But no I havn't tried what you said

No not quite, the NaOH will recombine, POSSIBLY and of course it happens to a few molecules, only if it is at saturation point. and no NaOH crystals can't just 'pop' into the naphtha and...hide. If any alkaloids pick up the Na+ then they would have to be either very polar or an ion or an ionic compound, Any ionic compound containing Na is soluble in water. And PLUS if one of those ions SOMEHOW got bound to another mystery alkaloid, this would NOT be lye but a completely different chemical now that would be formed whether there is excess lye or not.

These purple colored pigments are pretty clearly soluble in water when mixed with lye however...

That analogy does not work at all. More like this, if you are driving in a clean off road vehicle that can completely handle getting dirty, do you follow a road around a piece of land or just go through the dirt a little bit to reach the EXACT SAME PLACE.

YES, it is best to not use excess lye when this can be helped and YES people need to observe the strictest safety practices while handling ANY of these chemicals. HOWEVER, it is not necessary to follow an acid-base route to receive clean 1% from MHRB.

Edit: also the solubility of lye in water is 111 g per 100 mL which is a hell of a lot less than anyone should ever want to use in this extraction

Edit2: Just wanted to state somethings...yes there will be molecules of NaOH in the naphtha no matter how much lye you use, but this will a very very minimal amount and once again will happen even if a tiny amount of lye is used. VERY small number of molecules.
Really do need to be careful with that lye and HCl.

 

[El Ka Bong]

Any "source" for me is mostly experience I have gained. Having some theory plus experience helps one recognize which things are not absolute, and in chemistry few things are 'one-way'. For eg, all chemical reactions are reversible, and many (most) are happening both ways all the time - we 'force' the reaction to go the way we want, but it's hardly ever 100% complete.


But I usually cite any places I find 'facts' - For example, I'm sure some of us check here:

Sodium hydroxide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And this reference says:

"(lye)... is very soluble in water with liberation of heat. It also dissolves in ethanol and methanol, though it exhibits lower solubility in these solvents than potassium hydroxide. It is insoluble in ether and other non-polar solvents."

A Hah ! Would you believe this .!? But of course .. ! However experience with the teks we are using here has shown me something different

Just to remind - Naphtha is aka "petroleum ether", and this is distilled (purified) into diethyl ether. And so one would expect ZERO % NaOH to make it into the naphtha layer.


But this is what has been obsereved by swim - how lye does get into the naphtha -

1) if you heat up the basified solution-with-naphtha layer for > 1 hour, trying to reduce emulsions or 'speed up' the process, you'll get some NaOH in the yeild.

2)If you shovel in enough lye to reduce emulsins ( silly newb' !) possibly leaving undissolved granules remaining, making a saturated lye solution at pH 14, you'll get traces of lye in the naphtha.

"Traces" of lye is BAD ! .. you'll either have to 'wash' it out or just lazily end up smoking it. YOu lose 5-10% yeild each washing, and have to spend time handling or recrystalizing it ...

Here's some thinking-aloud ... because experience has shown swim that you can get lye into the naphtha, so wtf is going on..!?

Certainly putting grains of lye in naphtha would not dissolve much (or any NaOH) (Swim tried this).

But lye dissolved in water will behave differently - mixing a lye+H2O solution plus naphha is different chemically speaking. H2O ionizes the NaOH, separates the Na+ and :OH-, and there's all sorts of stuff in the MHRB that Na+ and :OH- can react with.

So a key difference is that naphtha can't separate the Na and OH ... water does instantly ! Mixing a lye-solution with naphtha is different than mixing lye-granules in naphtha...

Hydroxyl or :OH-, is reactive towards many other atoms and molecules, but this is enhanced anywhere near a catalyst, like a metal. Any few :OH-'s around with a catalyst present(ie the metal pill box storing the dmt) hastens deterioration - ie oxidative reactions that strip molecules appart happen faster with a metal around.

Maybe Na+ can act as a metal catlyst for some reactions (sodium is a metal) ?

I think proof for lye getting into the naphtha pulls is visual and gustory - you see it and taste it ! Cob-webby looking stuff with no 'shards' or 'nards' growing in the evaporation tray tells alot ! If I recall, it even smells less.

So the experiment to try might be - In a GLASS jar heat a pH 13.99 solution (just H2O and lye) to 55 deg C with a layer of naphtha on it for one hour. Stir and tumble this while it heats up. Then pull off and evaporate all the naphtha - see what you get. Then try this in an aluminum pot or by adding a piece of metal to the glass jar... The MHRB is different than a metal, but it is chock-ful of molecules and reagents, likley metals too as Fe, Cu, Zn, Mn and Mo are all in plants as nutrients.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

But, please what does this mean,

"...because any professional understands that the rules in the books never work out the way they say when applied in practice. " .. what do you practice "professionally" like this !? I hope it's not bridge building or organic chemistry !

This is just an inane excuse to be unsafe, and to perpetuate ignorance.

Simply put, a professional (someone who gets paid for this, hence profession) who has a significant number of years of experience (the one I'm referring to has 15 years as a chemist and currently works for GE) recognizes that sometimes theory and practice are two totally different things. The only ignorance in this, is a lack of experience and inability to recognize that "book smarts" and "real world application" usually have different results. Theoretically, if you had complete knowledge of and could maintain complete control over absolutely every single possible factor in a process or experiment then, again theoretically, the results would always come out just as it should according to the books. But, our world is far more complex than this.

 

[El Ka Bong]

I just hope it's not bridge-building and/or nuclear-power-plant design that you work at then ... if you really meant that statement ~!

Some rules are 'bendable' I know that, but for the sake of safety, and not spreading mis-information I disagree with 'breaking'or ignoring simple facts about organic chmistry, which we are all trying to learn here... . We should start a stickied "Chemistry Facts and FAQ's thread"

 

[adrian89987]

But this is what has been obsereved by swim - how lye does get into the naphtha -

1) if you heat up the basified solution-with-naphtha layer for > 1 hour, trying to reduce emulsions or 'speed up' the process, you'll get some NaOH in the yeild.

2)If you shovel in enough lye to reduce emulsins ( silly newb' !) possibly leaving undissolved granules remaining, making a saturated lye solution at pH 14, you'll get traces of lye in the naphtha.

"Traces" of lye is BAD ! .. you'll either have to 'wash' it out or just lazily end up smoking it. YOu lose 5-10% yeild each washing, and have to spend time handling or recrystalizing it ...

Here's some thinking-aloud ... because experience has shown swim that you can get lye into the naphtha, so wtf is going on..!?

Certainly putting grains of lye in naphtha would not dissolve much (or any NaOH) (Swim tried this).

But lye dissolved in water will behave differently - mixing a lye+H2O solution plus naphha is different chemically speaking. H2O ionizes the NaOH, separates the Na+ and :OH-, and there's all sorts of stuff in the MHRB that Na+ and :OH- can react with.

So a key difference is that naphtha can't separate the Na and OH ... water does instantly ! Mixing a lye-solution with naphtha is different than mixing lye-granules in naphtha...

Hydroxyl or :OH-, is reactive towards many other atoms and molecules, but this is enhanced anywhere near a catalyst, like a metal. Any few :OH-'s around with a catalyst present(ie the metal pill box storing the dmt) hastens deterioration - ie oxidative reactions that strip molecules appart happen faster with a metal around.

Maybe Na+ can act as a metal catlyst for some reactions (sodium is a metal) ?

I think proof for lye getting into the naphtha pulls is visual and gustory - you see it and taste it ! Cob-webby looking stuff with no 'shards' or 'nards' growing in the evaporation tray tells alot ! If I recall, it even smells less.

So the experiment to try might be - In a GLASS jar heat a pH 13.99 solution (just H2O and lye) to 55 deg C with a layer of naphtha on it for one hour. Stir and tumble this while it heats up. Then pull off and evaporate all the naphtha - see what you get. Then try this in an aluminum pot or by adding a piece of metal to the glass jar... The MHRB is different than a metal, but it is chock-ful of molecules and reagents, likley metals too as Fe, Cu, Zn, Mn and Mo are all in plants as nutrients.

Why exactly are you for sure gonna get so much more NaOH into the solvent layer by heating it?


And again I don't know why anyone, even someone not too sure what theyre doing would be putting enough lye into their extraction to saturate it.

I'm not sure how you've ended up with any observable quantity of lye in your product, me doing a STB has never had observable (seeable tasteable) lye.

What I am saying is, How are these bountiful amounts of OH- ions getting into the non-polar layer? I'm wondering why you aren't worried about ingesting chlorine from the HCl.

Getting non-perfectly crystallized DMT does not have much as all to do with lye being in the product, it has to do with excess plant oils being in the product...hence one of the major reasons for losing weight during a recrystallization.


Your experiment with the alluminum pot doesn't sound all too safe.


There is not a FACT that you have to do certain extractions certain methods.

 

[EZ4U2Shoot]

Just to let everyone know, this was a very pleasing success. I have added the final bit of Swims results to the end of the initial post right after the line of asterisks.

 

[adrian89987]

Yea thanks for posting about this
I think I'm going to try the supplier you mentioned next time.

Enjoy it out there..or in there or something
what ever it is