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LSA + Peppermint/Mint Oil
- Thread starter 'Coatl
- Start date
69ron
Rising Star
It works. SWIM has done it many times. The effects of LSH are totally different from LSA.
Be warned though, LSH can give you one hell of a scare. SWIM can handle massive doses of LSD. A large dose of LSH can cause extreme anxiety beyond belief. It’s good at low to moderate doses, but large doses are unpleasant. It also causes unpleasant side effects (vasoconstriction and bronchial constriction).
If you do it, only use a low or moderate dose. A low dose is almost identical to LSD. It’s more mind altering and more alien than LSD, and not as visual. Unlike LSA, LSH is a stimulant like LSD and doesn’t cause any sedation at all, in fact it can cause nervous jitters, and like I said, extreme anxiety if too much is taken.
SWIM REALLY LIKES LSH and made a bunch of it. But its only nice in small doses.
Believe me, if you try a large dose, you’ll be sorry. You’ll have a hard time breathing (because of the bronchial constriction), you’ll be pale and cold (from the vasoconstriction), and you’ll be completely freaking out, pacing around, constantly moving, can’t sit still, can’t stop your mind racing, holy crap…I’m serious here…you’ll wish you hadn’t taken it. We’re talking anxiety like you’ve never experienced before. Everything will look alien to you. Everything will feel uncomfortable, you won’t be able to relax at all. Imagine that nervousness and anxiety you sometimes get from LSD times 100, that plus the side effects.
But if you take a low dose to moderate dose, it’s FANTASTIC!
Be warned though, LSH can give you one hell of a scare. SWIM can handle massive doses of LSD. A large dose of LSH can cause extreme anxiety beyond belief. It’s good at low to moderate doses, but large doses are unpleasant. It also causes unpleasant side effects (vasoconstriction and bronchial constriction).
If you do it, only use a low or moderate dose. A low dose is almost identical to LSD. It’s more mind altering and more alien than LSD, and not as visual. Unlike LSA, LSH is a stimulant like LSD and doesn’t cause any sedation at all, in fact it can cause nervous jitters, and like I said, extreme anxiety if too much is taken.
SWIM REALLY LIKES LSH and made a bunch of it. But its only nice in small doses.
Believe me, if you try a large dose, you’ll be sorry. You’ll have a hard time breathing (because of the bronchial constriction), you’ll be pale and cold (from the vasoconstriction), and you’ll be completely freaking out, pacing around, constantly moving, can’t sit still, can’t stop your mind racing, holy crap…I’m serious here…you’ll wish you hadn’t taken it. We’re talking anxiety like you’ve never experienced before. Everything will look alien to you. Everything will feel uncomfortable, you won’t be able to relax at all. Imagine that nervousness and anxiety you sometimes get from LSD times 100, that plus the side effects.
But if you take a low dose to moderate dose, it’s FANTASTIC!
Just to be clear, it's almost certainly not LSH (D-Lysergic acid N-(α-hydroxyethyl)amide) that is created by this process. It's highly unlikely that acetaldehyde would be reactive to the amide nitrogen, and even if such an adduct would form, it wouldn't be stable in vivo.
That said, yes, adding a few drops of peppermint to a MGS or HBWR brew does substantially alter the effects, and in a very good way.
It's not really clear what's chemically going on in the process, but my best guess would be that something in the mint (acetaldehyde perhaps) is forming an adduct at the indole nitrogen of the lysergic acid amides. Whatever is going on, the result is certainly intriguing.
Some have speculated that this might solve the mystery of the Kykeon. It's commonly been proposed that the barley was infected with ergot, and that helped to explain the effects, but lysergic acid amides by themselves don't tend to produce the most pleasant effects, and certainly not as consistently as were reported by initiates to the Mystery. But the other, often neglected ingredient of the Kykeon is mint. And mint with lysergic acid amides is substantially more inspiring, in my experience.
That said, yes, adding a few drops of peppermint to a MGS or HBWR brew does substantially alter the effects, and in a very good way.
It's not really clear what's chemically going on in the process, but my best guess would be that something in the mint (acetaldehyde perhaps) is forming an adduct at the indole nitrogen of the lysergic acid amides. Whatever is going on, the result is certainly intriguing.
Some have speculated that this might solve the mystery of the Kykeon. It's commonly been proposed that the barley was infected with ergot, and that helped to explain the effects, but lysergic acid amides by themselves don't tend to produce the most pleasant effects, and certainly not as consistently as were reported by initiates to the Mystery. But the other, often neglected ingredient of the Kykeon is mint. And mint with lysergic acid amides is substantially more inspiring, in my experience.
69ron
Rising Star
LSH (D-Lysergic acid N-(α-hydroxyethyl)amide) is LSA + acetaldehyde. It's easy to make it.
You are mistaken. It works. It makes LSH. I've seen the tests proving it works. I'll try to find the report again. In the report they even show the exact amount of LSH that forms.
I know other's here have probably seen that report and know what I'm talking about.
You are mistaken. It works. It makes LSH. I've seen the tests proving it works. I'll try to find the report again. In the report they even show the exact amount of LSH that forms.
I know other's here have probably seen that report and know what I'm talking about.
What are you basing that claim on? (Edit: I'd appreciate if you can turn up that report)
I've read the paper on tryptophan analogue adducts (by JE Austin and H Fraenkel-Conrat) that generally gets tossed around with this theory, and it seems to argue substantially against the formation of LSH.
I've read the paper on tryptophan analogue adducts (by JE Austin and H Fraenkel-Conrat) that generally gets tossed around with this theory, and it seems to argue substantially against the formation of LSH.
69ron
Rising Star
It's not a claim. LSH is LSA + acetaldehyde. There's no doubt about that. That is the definition of LSH. When LSH comes apart it forms LSA and acetaldehyde. That is well documented. And you can put it back together in an acidic solution as the report I saw proved.
It definitely works. I'll find that report and post it and then you can argue with the report about whether you think it’s accurate or not. I see no reason to doubt it. After all, LSA + acetaldehyde is what LSH is defined as. That’s the definition according to Albert Hoffman. It’s an adduct of LSA and acetaldehyde.
LSH causes bronchial constriction. LSA doesn’t.
SWIM took PURE LSA. PURE. Then added acetaldehyde to it in water at pH 4. He mixed it for 24 hours. The effects changed completely. It formed LSH. I’m sure of it.
The oucome was an effect totally unlike LSA. And guess what, it had bronchial constriction effects just like LSH does. And the effects changed from being a sedative to a stimulant. So I’m convinced it works.
SWIM did this with pure white LSA, acetaldehyde, water, citric acid, and no other chemicals in it.
I’m telling you it works. Get someone to do it with PURE WHITE LSA CRYSTALS. Do like SWIM did, and then tell me it doesn’t work. I’ll be totally shocked if it doesn’t work.
But still, LSH is unpleasant at high doses. It will never get to be popular.
It definitely works. I'll find that report and post it and then you can argue with the report about whether you think it’s accurate or not. I see no reason to doubt it. After all, LSA + acetaldehyde is what LSH is defined as. That’s the definition according to Albert Hoffman. It’s an adduct of LSA and acetaldehyde.
LSH causes bronchial constriction. LSA doesn’t.
SWIM took PURE LSA. PURE. Then added acetaldehyde to it in water at pH 4. He mixed it for 24 hours. The effects changed completely. It formed LSH. I’m sure of it.
The oucome was an effect totally unlike LSA. And guess what, it had bronchial constriction effects just like LSH does. And the effects changed from being a sedative to a stimulant. So I’m convinced it works.
SWIM did this with pure white LSA, acetaldehyde, water, citric acid, and no other chemicals in it.
I’m telling you it works. Get someone to do it with PURE WHITE LSA CRYSTALS. Do like SWIM did, and then tell me it doesn’t work. I’ll be totally shocked if it doesn’t work.
But still, LSH is unpleasant at high doses. It will never get to be popular.
I'm not denying that LSH is an adduct of LSA + acetaldehyde. I just haven't seen any evidence that LSH is what's being generated when people add mint oil to their morning glory tea.
The desired reaction involves nucleophilic attack of the amide nitrogen on ergine on the carbonyl carbon of acetaldehyde.
There are at least four other reactive nucleophilic sites in ergine (N-1, C-2, C-3, and N-6)
The paper that I've seen referenced (I'll attach it in a moment) points out the fact that C-2 and C-3 are known to be reactive. N-1 and N-6 would clearly be more nucleophilic than the amide nitrogen.
I don't see how people can be so sure that LSH is what's responsible for the altered effects when mint oil is added in light of all these variables.
The desired reaction involves nucleophilic attack of the amide nitrogen on ergine on the carbonyl carbon of acetaldehyde.
There are at least four other reactive nucleophilic sites in ergine (N-1, C-2, C-3, and N-6)
The paper that I've seen referenced (I'll attach it in a moment) points out the fact that C-2 and C-3 are known to be reactive. N-1 and N-6 would clearly be more nucleophilic than the amide nitrogen.
I don't see how people can be so sure that LSH is what's responsible for the altered effects when mint oil is added in light of all these variables.
69ron
Rising Star
Yeah but SWIM used pure acetaldehyde and pure LSA, not mint oil and a seed extract.
I don't see how acetaldehyde could alter the effects unless LSH is forming. Or possibly something else is forming.
Try mixing pure acetaldehyde with pure LSA plus water and citric acid at pH 4 for 24 hours at 37 F. Then test it and see what you think. Maybe SWIM is nuts and imagining it, but it works for SWIM. He's let others try it and they also say it works.
If LSH isn't forming, then something else is definitely forming. The effects are completely different.
How can the effects be completely different by just adding water, citric acid, and acetaldehyde?
The effects of acetaldehyde are that of a hangover. It's unpleasant. It's not psychedelic or a stimulant. So how can it make LSA, a sedative, into a stimulant if it isn’t reacting with it?
I don't see how acetaldehyde could alter the effects unless LSH is forming. Or possibly something else is forming.
Try mixing pure acetaldehyde with pure LSA plus water and citric acid at pH 4 for 24 hours at 37 F. Then test it and see what you think. Maybe SWIM is nuts and imagining it, but it works for SWIM. He's let others try it and they also say it works.
If LSH isn't forming, then something else is definitely forming. The effects are completely different.
How can the effects be completely different by just adding water, citric acid, and acetaldehyde?
The effects of acetaldehyde are that of a hangover. It's unpleasant. It's not psychedelic or a stimulant. So how can it make LSA, a sedative, into a stimulant if it isn’t reacting with it?
69ron said:
I don't doubt at all that the effects changed substantially. I just don't know how you can be 100% sure it was LSH and not another adduct, or a combination of adducts (based on my reasoning in my previous post)
I too am convinced it works, I'm just not convinced that LSH is the sole culprit, or even necessarily the primary one.
If you followed a published procedure for generating pure LSH, then I don't doubt that's what you got. But all the experimenting I've seen/done has not used acidified solutions, nor has it used pure LSA. Everyone else is talking about a coldwater extract of morning glory or woodrose seeds with mint oil added. There are a lot more ergoline alkaloids that could be forming adducts in such a preparation, and if acidification is critical to forming LSH, that's an argument against it being a major player in that sort of preparation.
Another (much more tenuous) argument against LSH being the sole (or primary) player in a minted morning glory brew is that the uncomfortable vasoconstriction is almost universally reported to be reduced among such reports, where you indicate it is exacerbated with LSH.
I wouldn't be surprised if your careful chemical experiment is doing something substantially different from the crude plant decoctions that others are talking about.
69Ron said:
I agree. Again, I'm not denying at all that the effects are drastically different. I can personally attest to that.
It's just that, considering the evidence, I think it's more likely that something else is forming (at least in the common brewing method). Yours may be generating LSH, but it's also possible it's generating other related adduct too/instead. I don't see how that possibility can be ruled out without chemical characterization.
69ron
Rising Star
I'm sorry. I should be a little more careful about what I'm saying.
I don't know for sure that LSH is forming. I haven't had it tested. I believe it is forming.
Animal lab test shows that LSH has strong bronchial constriction effect, and it also has vasoconstriction effects. Animal lab tests also show it to be a stimulant like LSD producing the same behavioral effects as LSD does in animals. Animal tests with LSA show it produces sedative effects, vasoconstriction, but it lacks bronchial constriction effects, and doesn’t produce LSD-style behavior.
Anyway, the effects SWIM gets from mixing pure LSA with acetaldehyde, citric acid, and water for 24 hours at 37 F, definitely match those described for LSH in animal tests. Instead of the sedative effects, he gets stimulation, SWIM also gets LSD style mental effects and nervousness, and SWIM gets the annoying bronchial constriction effect. He doesn’t get bronchial constriction from LSA, only after this procedure is done.
SWIM cannot be 100% sure LSH is forming, but it seems to SWIM that it is.
The only way SWIM can be 100% sure LSH is forming, is to have it tested by someone qualified to test it. It’s very unstable so I’m not even sure how you would go about testing it.
Anyone care to give it a try who has the equipment and know how to test it?
I don't know for sure that LSH is forming. I haven't had it tested. I believe it is forming.
Animal lab test shows that LSH has strong bronchial constriction effect, and it also has vasoconstriction effects. Animal lab tests also show it to be a stimulant like LSD producing the same behavioral effects as LSD does in animals. Animal tests with LSA show it produces sedative effects, vasoconstriction, but it lacks bronchial constriction effects, and doesn’t produce LSD-style behavior.
Anyway, the effects SWIM gets from mixing pure LSA with acetaldehyde, citric acid, and water for 24 hours at 37 F, definitely match those described for LSH in animal tests. Instead of the sedative effects, he gets stimulation, SWIM also gets LSD style mental effects and nervousness, and SWIM gets the annoying bronchial constriction effect. He doesn’t get bronchial constriction from LSA, only after this procedure is done.
SWIM cannot be 100% sure LSH is forming, but it seems to SWIM that it is.
The only way SWIM can be 100% sure LSH is forming, is to have it tested by someone qualified to test it. It’s very unstable so I’m not even sure how you would go about testing it.
Anyone care to give it a try who has the equipment and know how to test it?
[quote='Coatl]Ethier way we know it makes the effects better... so why not?
[/quote]
Absolutely.
Using a standard coldwater extraction, I find morning glory tea to be fairly uninteresting. It's quite sedative, the change in consciousness is only very mildly psychedelic, and the body load is uncomfortable (especially for the mildness of the effects). When mint is thrown into the mix, it becomes more stimulating, more psychedelic, and the body load lessens (at least in the dosage range I've tried). Mint makes the experience substantially more worthwhile. I think it's best to leave the mint oil in for at least 12-18 hours before consuming, agitating frequently. 69Ron seems to suggest that acidifying the beverage is also beneficial in altering the effects (I'm hoping he can find the report he was talking about that supports this procedure).
I was just cautioning against the hasty assignment of LSH as being the sole or primary culprit in these altered effects.
On another board, someone is making quite a fuss that no one has done a double-blind experiment in order to rule out the possibility of placebo yet. Considering the experience of myself and others, I think the possibility of it being a placebo effect is not likely at all, but if someone would like to test it, they're certainly welcome to. One would need three people: Someone to prepare the beverages, another to administer them, and a third to consume them. Both the person consuming the beverage and the one administering it should be unaware whether the beverage has been treated with mint oil or not. To that end, the preparer will need to have both mint oil (for the experimental brew) and pure menthol (for the control brew), and play around with these things until they can get the mentholated brew to taste about the same as the mint oil-treated brew.
[/quote]
Absolutely.
Using a standard coldwater extraction, I find morning glory tea to be fairly uninteresting. It's quite sedative, the change in consciousness is only very mildly psychedelic, and the body load is uncomfortable (especially for the mildness of the effects). When mint is thrown into the mix, it becomes more stimulating, more psychedelic, and the body load lessens (at least in the dosage range I've tried). Mint makes the experience substantially more worthwhile. I think it's best to leave the mint oil in for at least 12-18 hours before consuming, agitating frequently. 69Ron seems to suggest that acidifying the beverage is also beneficial in altering the effects (I'm hoping he can find the report he was talking about that supports this procedure).
I was just cautioning against the hasty assignment of LSH as being the sole or primary culprit in these altered effects.
On another board, someone is making quite a fuss that no one has done a double-blind experiment in order to rule out the possibility of placebo yet. Considering the experience of myself and others, I think the possibility of it being a placebo effect is not likely at all, but if someone would like to test it, they're certainly welcome to. One would need three people: Someone to prepare the beverages, another to administer them, and a third to consume them. Both the person consuming the beverage and the one administering it should be unaware whether the beverage has been treated with mint oil or not. To that end, the preparer will need to have both mint oil (for the experimental brew) and pure menthol (for the control brew), and play around with these things until they can get the mentholated brew to taste about the same as the mint oil-treated brew.
69ron
Rising Star
I think doing a double blind test is a very good idea. I’d like to see this done with both the simple tea method with the seeds and peppermint oil, and also the method SWIM tried with pure LSA, pure acetaldehyde, citric acid and water.
Maybe it’s all in SWIM’s head. Maybe it is placebo? It is possible. But SWIM doesn’t think it is. But again, without a double blind test we cannot be sure it is not placebo.
SWIM has taken bunk LSD doses in the past and thought he actually felt them for the first hour, so the placebo effect is definitely an issue.
Also, LSD itself tends to dramatically amplify the placebo effect.
Maybe it’s all in SWIM’s head. Maybe it is placebo? It is possible. But SWIM doesn’t think it is. But again, without a double blind test we cannot be sure it is not placebo.
SWIM has taken bunk LSD doses in the past and thought he actually felt them for the first hour, so the placebo effect is definitely an issue.
Also, LSD itself tends to dramatically amplify the placebo effect.
As I understand it, most of the products that could potentially be forming (and most definitely LS, if it's forming), are adducts that are only stable in solution. Isolating a pure compound responsible for these effects may not be possible, but if it is it would require chromotography.