LSD vs other psychedelics

[JustAnotherHuman]

Hi Nexians!

Just wanted to get your thoughts on a subject that I've been thinking about lately. That is whether LSD is as powerful, as healing, as deep as other psychedelics like mushrooms, DMT, ayahuasca and mescaline.

Now, I don't have any personal experience in this area, however my personal feeling is that LSD can be just as powerful, just as spiritual, just as therapeutic as the other classic psychedelics.

The reason I ask this question is because I've heard, and read about a lot of psychonauts say that LSD is less deep than, say mushrooms, or that it's not as powerful as DMT. Like, I said earlier, I don't think that this is true. But then again, what do I know.

What are your thoughts? Do you agree with my sentiments, or not? What have you personally experienced? Please feel to share!

 

[Swayambhu]

Now, I don't have any personal experience in this area, however my personal feeling is that LSD can be just as powerful, just as spiritual, just as therapeutic as the other classic psychedelics.

Depends whether you have a shaman or not.
Kidding, kidding!

I haven't taken LSD in a long long time, but my recollection is that it was much less of a "healing" experience than mushrooms, which is what I am currently working with, but then I am a very different person to who I was 20 years ago; I'm looking for different things.

 

[woogyboogy]

Well I cannot say for sure how deep the rabbit hole goes with LSD, some claim that there is an upper limit at like 500-600 mic, from where on the experience isnt getting stronger anymore. Never tested these waters.

LSD is very special though. It deserves its place right next to the other compounds you mentioned imo. Its super clean, like just a drop on the sea of consciousness, and I mean it literally just is one drop. Barely nothing, and at the same time it is IN YOUR FACE! Theres no guide, but it is on the contrary representing unlimited unfulfilled potential. It shows you that everything is possible. Cosmic brilliance shining through everything. When you take it, i bet you will also notice how this chemical has influenced post modern art/technology and even blockbuster cgi industry.

I hope you get the chance to meet with it soon

Edit:

Just for fun, Ill share a totally subjective vision about the nature of it, I once had after ingesting some L..
So I got this realization, that LSD was like the human fingerprint in the cosmos, that it was where humans finally made the step, to make their first "psychedelic business card", ready to be sent out into cosmos, to be read by anybody who happens to have some 5-HT receptors. Like you know this alien character mushrooms sometimes can have? To this theory if extraterrestrial beings were to ingest some Acid, they would probably feel the same due to its human character! Haha well its pretty far out, but was very entertaining to think about at the time being..

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

Well I cannot say for sure how deep the rabbit hole goes with LSD, some claim that there is an upper limit at like 500-600 mic, from where on the experience isnt getting stronger anymore. Never tested these waters.

LSD is very special though. It deserves its place right next to the other compounds you mentioned imo. Its super clean, like just a drop on the sea of consciousness, and I mean it literally just is one drop. Barely nothing, and at the same time it is IN YOUR FACE! Theres no guide, but it is on the contrary representing unlimited unfulfilled potential. It shows you that everything is possible. Cosmic brilliance shining through everything. When you take it, i bet you will also notice how this chemical has influenced post modern art/technology and even blockbuster cgi industry.

I hope you get the chance to meet with it soon

I 100% agree with everything you said in this post woogyboogy!

As to how deep it goes, I've also heard that there's an upper threshold at round about 500 mics, at which receptor saturation is reached. I think that that is not fact though. Have you heard of the thumbprint? Apparently it's pure insanity. Here's a fantastic thread over at the Shroomery on it.

You talked about how LSD influenced modern art/technology and the CGI industry, I'm already well aware of that.

LSD has had a major influence on culture in so many different respects. It was central to the counterculture of the 60s. Just think of all the amazing music made by people who were touched by LSD. The scientific discoveries engendered with the help of this extraordinary molecule.

 

[AwesomeUsername]

I wouldn't say one psychedelic is deeper than the other I would just say it's different. In reality it's all dose dependent.

Not many people have taken acid the same way they treat other plant medicines. Usually LSD is taken recreationally, take it with a friend to trip out a bit on a relatively lower dose (usually up to 200ug) and just hang out, listen to music, exchange ideas, maybe go for a walk... Some even take it a raves which I personally never understood or had the need to do so but to each their own.

Now people on the other hand ritualize mushrooms, DMT, ayahuasca and mescaline they have all sorts of preparations and of coarse do a high dose of it. It might have to do with the fact that LSD has no special tradition built upon its ingestion and the others do and people want to experience the full spectrum of effects the way it's been done for thousands of years.

Putting the ritualization aside, I've find no major differences in depths of the experiences, it's just that they have a different headspace, visuals and so on and both LSD and other psychedelics can and will be a double edged sword if used incorrectly.

I also noticed that ayahuasca in particular has more of an impact in negative behavioral patterns as opposed to other psychedelics, but it doesn't really have to do so much with the headspace as with the fact that it can make you feel so bad, that you never want to feel as bad in your life ever again and so you fix certain habits after the experience that you didn't really plan on fixing prior it. It's like one day out of the blue you notice, oh I no longer crave junk food, I started to use my time more responsibly, etc etc.

Yes, LSD can do this too but ayahuasca was more so effective at achieving that. Best way to see is to try them yourself and see what's it all about if you are already interested in it. It's not a waste of time by any means.

Nowadays though, I tend to stick with my first love acid too, because it personally gives me the best experience out of all the psychedelics I've tried. I like the headspace, the duration, the visuals, the method of ingestion and easy dosing (just sticking a piece or two of paper on a tongue and you're good to go) and the overall feeling of clean high grade LSD the best and it certifiably don't find it lacking in anything especially when the dose is right.

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

Just for fun, Ill share a totally subjective vision about the nature of it, I once had after ingesting some L..
So I got this realization, that LSD was like the human fingerprint in the cosmos, that it was where humans finally made the step, to make their first "psychedelic business card", ready to be sent out into cosmos, to be read by anybody who happens to have some 5-HT receptors. Like you know this alien character mushrooms sometimes can have? To this theory if extraterrestrial beings were to ingest some Acid, they would probably feel the same due to its human character! Haha well its pretty far out, but was very entertaining to think about at the time being..

You're melting my mind here woogyboogy!

You might be on to something here! Maybe in the next few thousand years, or maybe even earlier:shock:, when we master interstellar travel, maybe we'll be the ones dropping off LSD pills on other planets. We'll probably have to engineer plants and fungi to produce LSD so that lower life forms can eat them and trip out! Imagine that!

I just love these kind of flights of fancy!

I wouldn't say one psychedelic is deeper than the other I would just say it's different. In reality it's all dose dependent.

I agree wholeheartedly with this AwesomeUsername!

Not many people have taken acid the same way they treat other plant medicines. Usually LSD is taken recreationally, take it with a friend to trip out a bit on a relatively lower dose (usually up to 200ug) and just hang out, listen to music, exchange ideas, maybe go for a walk... Some even take it a raves which I personally never understood or had the need to do so but to each their own.

Now people on the other hand ritualize mushrooms, DMT, ayahuasca and mescaline they have all sorts of preparations and of coarse do a high dose of it. It might have to do with the fact that LSD has no special tradition built upon its ingestion and the others do and people want to experience the full spectrum of effects the way it's been done for thousands of years.

Once again, you're right on the money dude! I think that many people aren't availing themselves of the full potential of LSD, taking low doses of LSD in a recreation setting.

I like what you said about there not being a specific tradition behind LSD. I like to think that will change as time goes on. I like to try to imagine what that culture would be like.

 

[syberdelic]

I like to believe that LSDs best feature is accessibility. Nearly anyone can have a full on psychedelic experience without having to eat something nasty or worry about medical conditions or what they've eaten recently. Most people don't feel sick on LSD. Thousands of doses can be smuggled just about anywhere.

I once took a large dose and had the realization that I was turning into an alcoholic. I have never drank the way I did before that night so yes, it is healing. I find that although it is not as powerful as something like DMT, it is easier to bring ideas back into the real world. It is a gentle and wise teacher that is often mistaken for something less important. With LSD, you have to actively listen.

As an example, after taking ayahuasca I simply don't drink at all anymore. DMT is more forceful and menacing. You have no choice but to listen. LSD requires much more empathy toward the message to fully understand it.

In conclusion, I find LSD to be just as valuable as any other psychedelic, but you have to treat it with respect the same way you would treat a soft spoken teacher. Be quiet and listen. He will accept your study no matter who you are and he has much wisdom to share.

 

[Praxis.]

I absolutely love LSD. Even though I was introduced to psychedelics with mushrooms, it was my first experience with acid that really sparked my infatuation with these molecules.

I find that most other psychedelics, maybe with the exception of mescaline, are less coherent and the insights are much easier to shrug off as the result of an intoxicated drug state. Not to say that the others aren't healing - but for example I feel like mushrooms are more confusing and the experience is dramatically influenced by your emotions, whereas LSD is incredibly lucid and coherent. I like acid because it allows me to really take a step back and observe my thoughts and analyze my life objectively and logically. It compartmentalizes reality in a way that feels intuitive, and gives me the opportunity to make connections between things while remaining grounded in rational thought.

I also love the fact that it's got so many applications - whether it's microdoses for productivity or medical uses, high doses for psychospiritual exploration and healing, or somewhere in between for light-hearted fun and debauchery - it really seems to be the most universal psychedelic.

And there's a mysterious enigma about it, considering its accidental origins and subsequent role in the counterculture, that makes it all the more appealing to me.

Of course I've been on an acid kick lately so maybe I'm just biased at the moment. If anything, I do wish the duration was a bit shorter as I don't always want to commit a full day/night, but I've come to accept that's just part of the ride.

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

I like to believe that LSDs best feature is accessibility. Nearly anyone can have a full on psychedelic experience without having to eat something nasty or worry about medical conditions or what they've eaten recently. Most people don't feel sick on LSD. Thousands of doses can be smuggled just about anywhere.

This.

I absolutely love LSD. Even though I was introduced to psychedelics with mushrooms, it was my first experience with acid that really sparked my infatuation with these molecules.

Also this. It's very interesting to me how, for a lot of people, LSD is the molecule that pops their psychedelic "virginity" , so to speak:grin:. I've also heard it said that the beauty of LSD is that it's like a neon sign pointing to other psychedelics. While I think that's true to a certain extent, I also think that LSD has a lot of merit as a true psychedelic, an entheogen even, in its own right.

I've also heard a lot of people describe LSD as being moar lucid than other psychedelics. I think that's variable, though.

I also love the fact that it's got so many applications - whether it's microdoses for productivity or medical uses, high doses for psychospiritual exploration and healing, or somewhere in between for light-hearted fun and debauchery - it really seems to be the most universal psychedelic.

Agreed.

 

[hixidom]

I would say vaped DMT is one of the least therapeutic psychedelics. I am certainly a better person because of it, but it took many sessions for me to figure out how to integrate the experience. LSD on the other hand seems more direct to me. When the LSD experience is more intense, the underlying message is more clear, while for DMT the trend seems reversed.

 

[jiva]

I would say vaped DMT is one of the least therapeutic psychedelics. I am certainly a better person because of it, but it took many sessions for me to figure out how to integrate the experience. LSD on the other hand seems more direct to me. When the LSD experience is more intense, the underlying message is more clear, while for DMT the trend seems reversed.

I do agree that DMT is very hard to integrate. but For me LSD creates a very clear version of the psychedelic state. I never felt that there is more tho it then "i took a drug and it helps me understand and think about stuff"
with shrooms and dmt the whole experience has a more spiritual touch to me. Especially the afterglow is very different for shrooms and dmt as i alway feel like i have got something to process now and "what the hell was that"

 

[syberdelic]

I think that one of the problems that people have with LSD is chemophobia. Because it doesn't come from nature, it must be either bad or at least lacking in some sort of spiritual connection to the earth.

The fact is that the ergot alkaloids that act as the precursor to LSD usually come from a natural source such as ergot fungus, morning glories, or Hawaiian baby woodrose and the conversion of chemicals like LSA to LSD can be viewed as tuning. In this case, nature didn't do such a great job at providing a valuable entheogen, but did an amazing job at providing the raw materials to make many useful drugs such as LSD and a handful of drugs for treating certain types of headaches that nothing else works on.

Most drugs, legal/safe or otherwise, have roots in the natural world.

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

I think that one of the problems that people have with LSD is chemophobia. Because it doesn't come from nature, it must be either bad or at least lacking in some sort of spiritual connection to the earth.

This! I feel like a lot people have this view and I personally don't agree with it at all. A chemical is a chemical, they don't have moral properties to them. Another good counterpoint I've heard to this anti-synthetic argument is that that all drugs are natural. Humans are natural(Maybe you don't think they are, if so, then that's a totally different story) so anything made by humans is by extension, natural.

Moar than this, LSD has been shown in numerous studies to have massive therapeutic benefits, just like other "natural" psychedelics like psilocybin and ayahuasca.

 

[hixidom]

To add to the current line of discussion, there is an argument for a natural chemical being good but only in its natural context. For example, water is natural but drinking a gallon of it in one sitting is not. So, what is natural for humans? Are humans exposed to such large amounts of things like corn syrup and artificial lighting in nature? Of course not. So, since we are already doing unnatural things to our bodies, does it really matter if the implements of this desecration are chemicals found in nature versus ones we make ourselves?

Also, isn't nature the thing that's been trying to kill us for 50 thousand years?!

 

[jma182]

Hi guys,

Very intresting topic, In my opinion LSD can be extremely therapeutic in the right mindframe, i dropped very clean acid last sunday and i tell ya i had not idea i was going to get so much from it, its been a few days and i can still feel lasting effects in both my mind and body, it helps me a lot cause i create what i like to call "mental enforcers" i use this for motivation and self control and analysis, i've been struggling with anger and LSD has helped me get rid of 3 sources of both anger and stress, and last sunday it showed me one of my biggest sources and started to create "mental enforcers" so i can quickly see if im spiraling into anger and think about why it happened and how it affects me.

as far motivation goes it helps me get off my butt and produce, like working out wich i hadnt done in years, but with the enforcers i make my laziness become less and less desirable thus i search for a change.

From a physical standpoint it has helped me managing the tension i get from stressing out, i have IBS that had been giving me some issues over the years but it has normalized a lot since i dropped lsd for the 1st time last november, nowdays i dont even take any medication for it, overall my body feels nicer.

Now i did the mistake of abusing mdma on December and a lot of the benefits i had gained left, mostly those related to my mental gains and stress management, but this was my own fault, luckily its coming back with my trip last sunday.

LSD is an incredible teacher but DMT really shaked some foundations of things i considered to be absolute, to me both are great tools for growth but in very different realms of my life DMT makes me question reality itself and how a lot of how interactions are reflections on my own attitude and viewpoints, it has shown me that there's a lot of room to grow while LSD helps me find more tools to fill the newly found growth space and also how to better accomodate whats in there already, get rid of whats detrimental and make better use of whats worth keeping, kinda like having a man cave and you start filling it up and moving things around so it all works better.


There's also a consideration to have with these substances and that is that they wont affect 2 organisms in the same way, I've seen it with DMT and LSD , for instance i get the nicest sensations coursing through my body and a heightened state of consciousness that allows me to think about myself without my ego getting in the way, but my best friend has a super rough ride he said this to me last sunday "dude i've never had a fully enjoyable experience with LSD, actually this was the hardest one to ride out, but what i learn from myself makes it worth it, i still cant figure it out, but i will most definetly do it again" its weird cause he gets a lot of physical discomfort from LSD, nausea, a lot of acidity, and he says that he spends half the trip entering and leaving his body, so he could hear the rest of us talking but it was muffled, then he came back talked for 5 mins or so and he went back in, this allows him to recreate scenarios of his own life from different standpoints, kinda like he recreates a moment without a fear that impeded him to proceed as he would've desired. he didnt have any visuals this time around just a very introspective and self analytical journey, and a veery strong body high.

 

[syberdelic]

To me, comparing LSD and DMT is like comparing a scalpel to a chainsaw.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Well, just to add to the Potpourri of personal experiences with LSD.

IMHO the main difference for me with LSD is certainly that the opticals start before anything else. I mean you still feel completely normal, but have optics (only later the psychedelic feeling starts, when the optics are already quite heavy). On shrooms etc, I always first get the psychedelic mind state long before the optics set in.
Also the trailing optics is for me much stronger on it, than on other substances.

I also from personal experience have the impression, that LSD has a much higher potential to induce HPPD. This was at least the case for me. (trailing remained for a long time afterwards)

Compared to the tryptamines I know, which are only naturals, IMHO LSD has more the phenethylamines feeling. I mean it is IMHO more pushy and mood enhancing than the trypts I know.

On LSD as on phens I stay more connected to my body, whereas on trypts I disconnect quite rapidly from my body. That means I can e.g. walk around, do things, while still quite hard tripping on LSD, but that is almost impossible for me, on trypts.

Also phens as also LSD even in higher dosages don't feel so aggressive on me as trypts. E.g. I had ego deaths on LSD, but they weren't as brutal as ego-deaths on shrooms.
I kinda feel my personal self more exposed on trypts vs LSD.
Well it's hard to describe what I actually mean. But maybe some of you know, what I mean.

As from the spiritual POV. LSD as also phens seems to me to open myself to the environment, so that I can connect to everything (I had wonderful spiritual experiences on LSD, which were life changing). Whereas trypts seem to me more introspective, you confront yourself, get right down to your problems, to the core, to your ego. This is IMHO also very healing but harder to handle. But after the peak confrontation, I had also such external connect to everything feelings on trypts. It's just that always first, there is this confrontation.

Well as said, these are just my experiences. I think it works differently for everybody.

 

[Swayambhu]

I think that one of the problems that people have with LSD is chemophobia. Because it doesn't come from nature, it must be either bad or at least lacking in some sort of spiritual connection to the earth.

I'm interested in this idea. It seems to tie in with the current trends of "online psychedelic community", psychedelic snobbery, ayahuasca supremacists, etc.

It seems many more essentially "straight" people are being exposed to the idea of psychedelics as therapeutic.
It's a trend that seems to have filtered up through the various levels or degrees of alternative culture, through to those strata of persons who would not have been exposed to "drug" use when in their teens.
Non drug-use as a teenager, iirc, signifies control, fear, conformism, mostly coming from parents.
And I guess who you were as a teenager dictates, to some degree, who you will be as an adult.

To reduce it almost to the absurd;

Natural plant "medicines" = health food, yoga, "right thinking", hygiene, success, ultimately conformism.

Chemical "drugs" = intoxication, chaos, addiction, irresponsibility, dirty hippies, nonconformism, marginilization.

I'm also interested in the idea of "micro-dosing" as signifier of the (forgive me) "pussification" of psychedelics.

Discuss.

Or ignore.

 

[JustAnotherHuman]

Well, just to add to the Potpourri of personal experiences with LSD.

IMHO the main difference for me with LSD is certainly that the opticals start before anything else. I mean you still feel completely normal, but have optics (only later the psychedelic feeling starts, when the optics are already quite heavy). On shrooms etc, I always first get the psychedelic mind state long before the optics set in.
Also the trailing optics is for me much stronger on it, than on other substances.

I also from personal experience have the impression, that LSD has a much higher potential to induce HPPD. This was at least the case for me. (trailing remained for a long time afterwards)

Compared to the tryptamines I know, which are only naturals, IMHO LSD has more the phenethylamines feeling. I mean it is IMHO more pushy and mood enhancing than the trypts I know.

On LSD as on phens I stay more connected to my body, whereas on trypts I disconnect quite rapidly from my body. That means I can e.g. walk around, do things, while still quite hard tripping on LSD, but that is almost impossible for me, on trypts.

Also phens as also LSD even in higher dosages don't feel so aggressive on me as trypts. E.g. I had ego deaths on LSD, but they weren't as brutal as ego-deaths on shrooms.
I kinda feel my personal self more exposed on trypts vs LSD.
Well it's hard to describe what I actually mean. But maybe some of you know, what I mean.

As from the spiritual POV. LSD as also phens seems to me to open myself to the environment, so that I can connect to everything (I had wonderful spiritual experiences on LSD, which were life changing). Whereas trypts seem to me more introspective, you confront yourself, get right down to your problems, to the core, to your ego. This is IMHO also very healing but harder to handle. But after the peak confrontation, I had also such external connect to everything feelings on trypts. It's just that always first, there is this confrontation.

Well as said, these are just my experiences. I think it works differently for everybody.

You know Aum, LSD's chemical structure is unique in that it is both a tryptamine and a phenethylamine. What I mean is that it has both the tryptamine and phenethylamine moiety within its molecular structure.

Look at this image:

If you look carefully at the molecule, you can see the tryptamine and phenethylamine structures.

I think this explains quite well the experiences that you have with this molecule.

Just a little factoid:grin:

Swayambhu, I think you might be onto something. This is why I started this thread. I had heard from a lot of people that LSD is inferior to other psychs because it is synthetic. I thought that that was a ridiculous idea, so I thought I'd ask you guys what you thought.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Swayambhu, I think you might be onto something. This is why I started this thread. I had heard from a lot of people that LSD is inferior to other psychs because it is synthetic. I thought that that was a ridiculous idea, so I thought I'd ask you guys what you thought.Big grin

I also think this is rather a close minded view on this. You just draw black and white, by disregarding something as synthetic. IMHO this is a typical mind conclusion: The mind always has to separate and judge.
There I like the opinion of a real shaman: When Hoffman gave Maria Sabina pure synthetic psilocybin, she openly confirmed, that the same "spirit" is in there as in the mushrooms.
I personally e.g. cannot really understand why people like Gerardo Sandoval say, that only the 5-MeO-DMT from Bufo Alvarius is the real thing and that the synthetic is bad.
IMHO that is just an unnecessary judgment which gives IMHO a lot of pressure on the poor bufo alvarius animals.
But this is just my view, and I understand the irony of my judgment of this all.


As an addition about the effect differences:
The funny thing is, that on all trypts I always see this "god pattern" (I call it like that) on everything. It's kinda similar to the shipibo pattern, but way more complex. I also see this pattern on THC (BTW: Yes, THC is very psychedelic for me and also quite CEV). Whereas on LSD or LSA I never saw it.