LSD with MAOI

[samatha]

I wonder if anyone has any insight in combining LSD with MAOI.
Primarily if anyone has any experience in combining it with something like St. Johns Wart.

I read somewhere long ago how SWIM combined 100ug with some sort of MAOI essentially turning LSD into MDMA like experience.

It would be fantastic if a low dose macrodose could be combined with another substance to replace classic MDMA experience at a rave.

In the past, I've had fantastic results with different between 15-25ug at shows but its always a mixed bag of results. Too many variables in order to pinpoint how to replicate that experience.

As far as I understand seratonin syndrome is not really a concern when combining LSD or magic mushrooms with MAOIs but I understand not all MAOIs are the same hence St Johns Wart.

 

[Nydex]

I personally haven't tried this combination, but to me LSD is sacred in a way that makes it impossible to really enjoy it at an event like a rave. I've tried it before in several different dosages, and it just doesn't work for me. Makes me too sensitive to energy, and there's a lot of that at a rave.

In any case, you might want to take a look at the Nexus Wiki, particularly the Known substance interactions and their effects portion of it. There's a section on combining LSD and Harmala. Hopefully that gives you some insight on what to expect.

Just a kind reminder to carefully test your LSD and make sure you're not unknowingly taking something else and combining it with a MAOI. :thumb_up:

 

[dragonrider]

I think it might also depend on whether you have a substance that (mostly) inhibits MAO-A or MAO-B, or the ratio between MAO A and B inhibition.

I have mixed experiences with LSD and MAOI's myself.

Thing is, most MAOI's have a lot of other pharmacological effects as well, so it's hard to tell what exactly is going on.

-From passionflower extract, i almost felt no effects, except maybe that the whole experience became a bit dreamier. But that might have been autosuggestion. The effects where not significant enough to draw any conclusion.

-From a moderate dose of rue, i had quite strong effects, but it made the whole experience less visual and more speedy.

-From carnosine, i experienced a noticable potentiation without any significant alteration.

Any potentiation should not come from inhibition of the metabolism of LSD. Increased levels of certain neurotransmitters could enhance or dull the effects of LSD though, as well as other effects some of these substances have.

 

[Subtlevibrations]

If you want an MDMA like experience, I would suggest taking MDMA

MAOIs and SSRIs tend to interfere with LSD and make the experience less intense, meaningful, or immersive. I don't know if it could lead to serotonin syndrome, but I do know LSD effects serotonin regulation in the brain. I would personally advise against the combination if a friend asked me.

safe travels

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Low-dose mescaline would be another option worth exploring, perhaps. [Edit: I mean, if it's a non-toxic, empathogenic experience you're interested in.]

The best time to start your cactus collection is already

 

[the red squirrel]

I wonder if anyone has any insight in combining LSD with MAOI.
Primarily if anyone has any experience in combining it with something like St. Johns Wart.

Combining LSD with an MAOI is one interesting way to go, but the case of St. John wort (Hypericum perforatum) may be something special:

This is what I found for the plant page in the Garden of Eden (Voogelbreinder,2009):

H. perforatum herb has shown some very weak MAO- and COMT- inhibiting properties, as well as weakly inhibiting serotonin and norepinephrine re-uptake, but the full mechanism of action is yet to be shown, and is clearly a synergistic one between the various compounds present. It has been suggested that the MAOI effect would be due to an unidentified xanthone component (Bruneton 1995; Perovic & Muller 1995; Raffa 1998; Suzuki et al. 1984). The herb also induces cytochrome P450 3A4 and 3A5 activity, and has been shown to potently inhibit cytochrome P450 isoenzymes other than the types mentioned above, with extended use (Coxeter et al. 2003; Fugh- Berman 2000; Home Page - Dahlgren Memorial Library clinlist.html). This herb usually must be taken daily for several weeks to become fully effective (Katzenstein 1998; pers. comm.), and should not be combined with MAOIs or serotonin re-uptake inhibitors, as symptoms of serotonin syndrome may result (Fugh-Berman 2000). Antidepressants which have shown interactions with St. John’s wort include sertraline, nefazodone, fluoxetine, paroxetine and amitriptyline. Some studies suggest that St. John’s wort may interfere with the activities of some antiarrhythmic- mic [digoxin], antiretroviral [indinavir], immunosuppressant [cyclosporin, tacrolimus], oral contraceptive and anticoagulant drugs. However, more evidence is needed to determine the extent of these interactions in humans (Coxeter et al. 2003).

So, I have to do some research for it to be completely sure but as stated above H. perforatum could interact with LSD via the MAOI effect & potentially also via cytochrome P450 modification. I'm not sure how this would alter the effects of LSD?

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Low dose LSD plus THH?

 

[Panpsychic]

Am amazed at this topic and had no idea that MAOI could potentiate LSD, I had heard rumours about it before and conflicting info but reading through the forum was the first confirmation that it indeed can be done. It seems to be quite a rare and seldom used combo.

I found this quote quite telling from another thread on this topic.

I've done this combination twice recently 4.5g syrian rue + 100ug 1p-lsd
and my girlfriend did 3g rue + 50ug acid (she's more sensitive than I)

We both had some of the deepest and most incredible trips we've ever had, the depth of experience was definitely increased over taking the acid alone but it wasn't so wildly different that I'd have freaked out.. I think the key here is to tread carefully when you're experimenting with psychedelics and especially when it's something you've not tried before / there's not much information available about it online.

I'd been thinking of making a trip report for the two above experiences but it'd be kind've long and I don't have a ton of spare time but I'll make a quick summary of my thoughts on the combo.

--------------

I experienced connection with the mother archetype which lead to me pretty much balling my eyes out at the amount of love / acceptance / reassurance / safety I felt from this. Connection to entities like this has never happened to this degree on LSD for me before so I think the rue definitely had influence here.

After connecting to this motherly energy, I felt so safe that I was comfortable with facing whatever I needed to face, the experience went to some pretty dark places but I always felt very prepared at dealing with them.

I experienced total ego death multiple times through out this experience, I was listening to some pretty forceful / intense music though, I can't imagine ego death is something easy to achieve at this dosage but I was very impressed that it was possible and it was interesting being able to achieve it almost at will after the first time in that I was able to explore the processes that lead to and from it and so gaining insight into some core elements that go into composing what I've come to identify with as I.

The potential for shadow work here is incredible, this is the area that all my psychedelic experiences have ultimately pointed towards as the point of all this.. addressing it is the work that I'm here to do and much work was done i those two experiences, shadow is such a slippery subject and I've been on its tail for a long time but always with a great deal of confusion around it. In this experience I watched as it tried to scare me away with violent / sexual / grotesque imagery as my awareness began to hone in on it and I was eventually able to separate from it completely and study it from outside of it which was insightful.

There was generally no anxiety what so ever other than a few moments of it during the first instance of ego death and there was also no bodily discomfort and laying in bed going inwards was pretty easy compared to how acid is for me normally.


There's way too much that happened to cover it all in such a short post but I know that I'll personally never be doing LSD again without rue / caapi to accompany it.

Based on this shining recommenation it's a combination I will certainly be trying in the near future. The only major issue I can see with this, which applies to acid in general is that you have to be 100% sure what you have is LSD. We hear of other substances sometimes being passed off as acid on tabs nowadays and you do not want any risk of adverse drug interactions. So it's something only to be attempted with quality acid that you definitely know is acid from a reliable source.

I am somewhat of an aficionado for good LSD and my ideal dose is 400ug, usually done every couple of weeks at the current time. So this combo is one I will be trying soon, probably will lower it to 200ug and then add some rue tea. Depending how it goes I may write a brief overview how it went later.

The mysteries of Harmala and it's amazing synergies continue to unveil themselves.

 

[[:]]

Potentiation of psychedelic effects by harmala alkaloids can occur via the impact of glutamic acid in relation to the gabinergic system, rather than from the inhibition of MAO. Check out the paper: Harmine, a natural beta-carboline alkaloid, upregulates astroglial glutamate transporter expression

Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide act similarly and are well known for their ability to potentiate psychedelic effects.

 

[Subtlevibrations]

Potentiation of psychedelic effects by harmala alkaloids can occur via the impact of glutamic acid in relation to the gabinergic system, rather than from the inhibition of MAO. Check out the paper: Harmine, a natural beta-carboline alkaloid, upregulates astroglial glutamate transporter expression

Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide act similarly and are well known for their ability to potentiate psychedelic effects.

Could you attach a link to your quoted paper please?

 

[[:]]

The reference is all I am going to provide for now.
The role of glutamate in the psychedelic experience is not well known, but it is well studied.
I'll include a paper about that with this post:
Me, myself, bye: regional alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin -attached

I also suggest people look into:

Psychedelic Targeting of Metabotropic Glutamate Receptor 2 and Its Implications for the Treatment of Alcoholism​

The Neurobiology of Psychedelic Drugs: Implications for the Treatment of Mood Disorders​

see image here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...e-release-by-psychedelics-a-The_fig1_45695149

I'd rather not elaborate too much or go into too much detail for the purposes of this discussion. People can do their own reading and study on this.
I'd just like to share that the idea of Harmala alkaloids as MAO-I is overly simplistic and that many of their effects have very little to do with the inhibition of MAO.

 

[Panpsychic]

The reference is all I am going to provide for now.
The role of glutamate in the psychedelic experience is not well known, but it is well studied.
I'll include a paper about that with this post:
Me, myself, bye: regional alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin -attached

I also suggest people look into:

Psychedelic Targeting of Metabotropic Glutamate Receptor 2 and Its Implications for the Treatment of Alcoholism​

The Neurobiology of Psychedelic Drugs: Implications for the Treatment of Mood Disorders​

see image here: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...e-release-by-psychedelics-a-The_fig1_45695149

I'd rather not elaborate too much or go into too much detail for the purposes of this discussion. People can do their own reading and study on this.
I'd just like to share that the idea of Harmala alkaloids as MAO-I is overly simplistic and that many of their effects have very little to do with the inhibition of MAO.

Thanks, worth looking into. A corollary of that is that both B.Caapi and P.Harmala are known to be psychoactive in their own right in sufficient doses. I am intrigued though greatly by potential symbiotic effects with LSD, if its anything like the report describes it may be quite something.

 

[Transform]

Potentiation of psychedelic effects by harmala alkaloids can occur via the impact of glutamic acid in relation to the gabinergic system, rather than from the inhibition of MAO. Check out the paper: Harmine, a natural beta-carboline alkaloid, upregulates astroglial glutamate transporter expression

Ketamine and Nitrous Oxide act similarly and are well known for their ability to potentiate psychedelic effects.

This topic would be worthy of discussion in its own thread - thanks for providing a few pointers here.

Neurochemistry has a whole lot more to it than the 'big three' neurotransmitters. Even there a whole pantheon of complexity comes into play simply from considering all the receptor subtypes, not all of which have a direct effect on the CNS.

 

[[:]]

It is worthy of its own thread, certainly.
I recall it being discussed to some degree at the old forum.

Basically the big 3 receptor types that relate to the form and function aspect of drugs are the glutamate receptors, TAAR1 and the serotonin receptors like 5HT2a.

Each of these receptors are worth discussing in further detail in relation to structure and function of psychoactive amines as well as in terms of user safety. For example it can be dangerous to combine strong TAAR1 agonists with MAO-inhibitors because of hyperthermia, or overheating. I am aware of a few threads that should be started for the purpose of exploring and considering aspects related to this.

 

[Transform]

It is worthy of its own thread, certainly.
I recall it being discussed to some degree at the old forum.

Basically the big 3 receptor types that relate to the form and function aspect of drugs are the glutamate receptors, TAAR1 and the serotonin receptors like 5HT2a.

Each of these receptors are worth discussing in further detail in relation to structure and function of psychoactive amines as well as in terms of user safety. For example it can be dangerous to combine strong TAAR1 agonists with MAO-inhibitors because of hyperthermia, or overheating. I am aware of a few threads that should be started for the purpose of exploring and considering aspects related to this.

Great, it seems like a good idea to plan out this series; I'm rather thinking of the "Chemical Guide to Classic Psychedelics" thread by Brennendes Wasser as a format guideline for tackling the area, which could act as a reference thread for a series of daughter threads.

I appreciate most of us very likely have very long to do lists alreadybut this seems like a potentially good addition to our resources section, for example.