- Merits
- 1,416
Are those lumps stuck to the container's walls? If so yes, they're just clumps of harmalas and the color is right. If they're floating, then something's going on.
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TEK Manske Query
- Thread starter kkRoxo
- Start date
This topic contain a TEK
Ahhh seems to be stuck to the side - that's good! So should it be left for a few more days until it clears, or can the next steps be moved onto?
Also, is it better to keep it in the fridge or room temperature at this point?
- Merits
- 1,416
I would set it with a vibrating phone on top or something like that so the clumps stuck to the walls fall down, and then continue.
AFAIK it shouldn't matter, as the freebase is not water soluble. But I leave it in the fridge.
Ah perfect, thanks, nice idea. So, vibrate and wait for it to clear up in colour a bit then!
- Merits
- 1,416
Well, as for the manske you will have had to add acid to convert the freebase into salt form, all ammonia will have been neutralized by the acid by then. The main advantage of ammonia is if you intend to get freebase as a final product instead of a salt. In that case, with other materials you have to do washes or risk to have base leftovers in your harmala freebase. But as ammonia is a gas (dissolved in water), no ammonia will be left once the harmala freebase is dry.
Interesting, thanks for explaining!
So if using ammonia, is manske step skipped? Or is it fine to carry on? The initial instructions mentioned dissolving in vinegar, filter, then add a saturated salt solution to help the alkaloids precipitate more cleanly. This sounded a lot like a manske type step!
Final aim would be to get a product that can be consumed, rather than smoked.
- Merits
- 1,416
It really depends on what you want. You can skip it if you want. In my experience, the manske does result in very apparent cleaning of the harmalas. But, on the other hand, it has been shown by analysis that without the manske the extract is already basically pure, despite the color: Harmala extraction - unneccessary steps? So as you prefer, really.
It is
Both are perfectly fine for oral use (for smoking you do want freebase). What I do is store it as freebase and, if I'm going to eat it, I dissolve it in some juice or any other kind of acidic drink. You can eat the freebase without doing that too, but that causes me excessive stomach gas.
Another effective method of consumption is to take it sublingually. It's similar to smoking, it hits quickly and low amount is needed.
Interesting! So in terms of ammonia's advantage... on the guide posted by me, it suggests once you've done the manske to base it with sodium carbonate, leave for 24hrs, decant the liquid and dry the crystals leftover at the bottom.It really depends on what you want. You can skip it if you want. In my experience, the manske does result in very apparent cleaning of the harmalas. But, on the other hand, it has been shown by analysis that without the manske the extract is already basically pure, despite the color: Harmala extraction - unneccessary steps? So as you prefer, really.
It is
Both are perfectly fine for oral use (for smoking you do want freebase). What I do is store it as freebase and, if I'm going to eat it, I dissolve it in some juice or any other kind of acidic drink. You can eat the freebase without doing that too, but that causes me excessive stomach gas.
Is there any advantage to using ammonia in this step, or is sodium carbonate preferable?
- Merits
- 1,416
If you don't do any further steps yes, as you would be getting freebase and avoiding any excess base in it without needing to do washes. If you do another manske after that, then no.
Ahhh okay. Is it actually necessary to use an alkaline solution to base after the manske steps? Or can the manske crystals just be dried as they are? The wiki guide you showed added sodium carbonate at the end. What is the advantage of this, compared to just drying the manske crystals?
- Merits
- 1,416
Okay, let's step back for a second, I think you may be confused about freebase and salt forms.
The freebase form of an alkaloid is a form where the molecule is "by itself", so to speak. It will have a basic (that is, high) pH, not generally be water-soluble, and is obtained by basifying the mixture in this case. In the case of harmalas, it can be both smoked or used orally. If you mix it in an acidic environment, it will become a salt and dissolve.
In the salt form, the alkaloid molecule forms an ionic bond with an acid molecule. For example, in vinegar (containing acetic acid) it will form the acetate salt. The salt form is water soluble. In the case of harmalas, it can be used orally but not smoked. If you mix it in a basic environment (high pH), it will become a base, precipitate out of the water, and slowly fall to the bottom. In the case of harmalas, the water-soluble salt form can be extracted from the water through the manske step. Do not confuse the salt form of harmalas with table salt, NaCl.
With this information you should have no problem answering to your own question. But do ask if you have any doubts.
The freebase form of an alkaloid is a form where the molecule is "by itself", so to speak. It will have a basic (that is, high) pH, not generally be water-soluble, and is obtained by basifying the mixture in this case. In the case of harmalas, it can be both smoked or used orally. If you mix it in an acidic environment, it will become a salt and dissolve.
In the salt form, the alkaloid molecule forms an ionic bond with an acid molecule. For example, in vinegar (containing acetic acid) it will form the acetate salt. The salt form is water soluble. In the case of harmalas, it can be used orally but not smoked. If you mix it in a basic environment (high pH), it will become a base, precipitate out of the water, and slowly fall to the bottom. In the case of harmalas, the water-soluble salt form can be extracted from the water through the manske step. Do not confuse the salt form of harmalas with table salt, NaCl.
With this information you should have no problem answering to your own question. But do ask if you have any doubts.
Amazing, thanks for taking the time to explain this in detail! I suppose the only thing I'm wondering is what the purpose of adding a base (like ammonia or sodium carbonate) after the final manske step and then drying is, rather than just filtering the crystals (without adding ammonia or sodium carbonate) and letting them dry?
- Merits
- 1,416
Obtaining the harmalas in the freebase form. If you want them in the salt form, you can just do the final manske, dry the crystals and leave it at that.
- Merits
- 42
You absolutely can store them as a salt but the dosage will depend on how much salt there is left in the product. It's simple to dose if you have a freebase and just add a bit of your preferred acid or acidic fruit juice before consuming.
