Elf Machine
Rising Star
My fiancee and I want to do something different for our wedding. We are considering getting married by a real shaman somewhere. Anyone have any ideas where we could go and by whom? Please no negative comments.
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marriage by shaman?
- Thread starter Elf Machine
- Start date
Phantastica
Rising Star
omg! that's a legit fuckin idea. what would make it even more legit tho is if you were both tripping on aya while getting married! DO IT! I know i will, now that you have implanted this idea like a virus in my head. thank you 
but i dont know of any places to recommend. however, i'm sure someone from Aya forums can help you out. http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/index.php
best of luck! and please do update us if you two get married by a shaman...(on aya please)..awesome!
but i dont know of any places to recommend. however, i'm sure someone from Aya forums can help you out. http://forums.ayahuasca.com/phpbb/index.php
best of luck! and please do update us if you two get married by a shaman...(on aya please)..awesome!
Elf Machine
Rising Star
Yes, we are open to doing it while on aya if that is part of the tribes tradition. Our purpose is to do it authentically with any tribal shaman, entheogens or not.
KwisatzHaderach
everything is becoming
Hey man,
This thread definitely caught some interest for me as well as my girlfriend and I have been talking about a similar arrangement. Our best bet we think is Mexico, because shamanism is still pretty prevalent in the north and are more welcoming to strangers outside the culture. We had some friends that did likewise with a shaman. Husband and Wife got married after spending like 24 hours together in a sweatlodge tripping on mushrooms or something.
Off the topic of marriage but still on the topic of shamanism, there was talk at some point of trying to take Ayahuasca in South America with a legit shaman there. But I've heard that they hate outsiders that do this sort of thing. Because I guess hella people did it in the 60s and 70s and just stole all their culture and secrets. So I would be more wary of going to SA for this type of thing unless you're already in.
But good luck to you and congratulations!
This thread definitely caught some interest for me as well as my girlfriend and I have been talking about a similar arrangement. Our best bet we think is Mexico, because shamanism is still pretty prevalent in the north and are more welcoming to strangers outside the culture. We had some friends that did likewise with a shaman. Husband and Wife got married after spending like 24 hours together in a sweatlodge tripping on mushrooms or something.
Off the topic of marriage but still on the topic of shamanism, there was talk at some point of trying to take Ayahuasca in South America with a legit shaman there. But I've heard that they hate outsiders that do this sort of thing. Because I guess hella people did it in the 60s and 70s and just stole all their culture and secrets. So I would be more wary of going to SA for this type of thing unless you're already in.
But good luck to you and congratulations!
I think its important to also question why you are doing it.. Do you just want something exotic? Or do you want the intervention of a particular kind of shamanic ritual in your life? Im sure you are well aware that under the name 'shamanism' there is a host of very different practices.
In some indigenous societies the concept of 'marriage' that we have will anyways not exist, so in those cases you would just ask them to 'play the game' for you even though it doesnt mean anything to them. Personally I think its very important (and respectful) to first do a research on specific cultures, see what their concept of marriage/relationship is, see if anything matches with your ideas, and then go about finding it.
I hope you understand im just trying to make you think but am not criticising your idea. In fact I just want to congratulate you for having found someone you want to share your life with, and I wish you all the best, regardless of which ritual you perform to symbolically connect your souls
Btw, as for KwisatzHaderach's comment regarding going to south america.. I dont think you can generalize that much. For sure there are some negative impacts regarding ayahuasca/shamanic tourism and some locals may look down on it, but it also represents an important source of income (fair in some cases, unscrupulously unfair in others). Then there are many locals which dont even question whether its good or bad, it just is. And yet others farther away who nearly never see tourists and might be very happy when someone from outside arrives. Theres many cases.
Also there is the question of cultural exchange, which can be very negative in many cases but in others it may be positive. If you just take an airplane to Iquitos, go with the first person that offers you ayahuasca when you step out of the airport, take whatever they offer, pay and leave again to tell the story to your friends, then I would say thats a problem. It would be completely different if you do your research first, know some basics about the cultures, if you go to either a trustable shaman you've been recommended or that you go away from the beaten path, into the jungle and carefully try to find 'the real deal'. Also specially if you try to think of ways that you can help the people you interact with (not necessarily monetarily or materially, maybe there's something you can teach them, maybe you can help them think critically regarding the 'gifts' that westerners bring, or maybe you wanna stay for longer and work on some project with them that they need, whatever)
So yeah, do it if you want, but do it consciously and the best way possible. If all 'shamanic tourists' were conscious and respectful, you can be sure it would be sooo much better, so if you do your part im sure it will be fine
In some indigenous societies the concept of 'marriage' that we have will anyways not exist, so in those cases you would just ask them to 'play the game' for you even though it doesnt mean anything to them. Personally I think its very important (and respectful) to first do a research on specific cultures, see what their concept of marriage/relationship is, see if anything matches with your ideas, and then go about finding it.
I hope you understand im just trying to make you think but am not criticising your idea. In fact I just want to congratulate you for having found someone you want to share your life with, and I wish you all the best, regardless of which ritual you perform to symbolically connect your souls
Btw, as for KwisatzHaderach's comment regarding going to south america.. I dont think you can generalize that much. For sure there are some negative impacts regarding ayahuasca/shamanic tourism and some locals may look down on it, but it also represents an important source of income (fair in some cases, unscrupulously unfair in others). Then there are many locals which dont even question whether its good or bad, it just is. And yet others farther away who nearly never see tourists and might be very happy when someone from outside arrives. Theres many cases.
Also there is the question of cultural exchange, which can be very negative in many cases but in others it may be positive. If you just take an airplane to Iquitos, go with the first person that offers you ayahuasca when you step out of the airport, take whatever they offer, pay and leave again to tell the story to your friends, then I would say thats a problem. It would be completely different if you do your research first, know some basics about the cultures, if you go to either a trustable shaman you've been recommended or that you go away from the beaten path, into the jungle and carefully try to find 'the real deal'. Also specially if you try to think of ways that you can help the people you interact with (not necessarily monetarily or materially, maybe there's something you can teach them, maybe you can help them think critically regarding the 'gifts' that westerners bring, or maybe you wanna stay for longer and work on some project with them that they need, whatever)
So yeah, do it if you want, but do it consciously and the best way possible. If all 'shamanic tourists' were conscious and respectful, you can be sure it would be sooo much better, so if you do your part im sure it will be fine
BenevolentSon
Rising Star
That is a very, very, very (I can't stress this enough) beautiful idea. It has now given me the idea for when my time comes to be wedded by an Australian Aboriginal elder of my area. Thankyou and I wish you the best of luck on your path to being wedded by a shaman of some sort and to live as one forever with your love!
I sort of think if I was ever to find a girl crazy enough to marry me haha we would just run off to some mountain top and proclaim our love to the stars and then drink magical potions all night long..:d
Horrible idea, if you're doing it because its somehow "exotic". That would be exploitation of a culture at its best. Also note, that a shaman is not some kind of "jungle priest". Shamanism is no religion but a TECHNIQUE.
The thing with this kind of tourism is: You get there, you show them that you are a very powerful man with a lot of ressources. You leave with an enriched life leaving the people involved behind with nothing.
A shaman is no service personal at your disposal. It's a person embedded in a culture very different from yours. I'm not against sensible intercultural exchange..but it must be an exchange. So...
1. Learn the language
2. Live and work there for a couple of months
Then get "married"...but make sure the shaman has the authority to do that. It would be ridiciolous if not. Imagine a peruvian guy coming to the States trying to find a butcher to marry him because he likes sausages.
The thing with this kind of tourism is: You get there, you show them that you are a very powerful man with a lot of ressources. You leave with an enriched life leaving the people involved behind with nothing.
A shaman is no service personal at your disposal. It's a person embedded in a culture very different from yours. I'm not against sensible intercultural exchange..but it must be an exchange. So...
1. Learn the language
2. Live and work there for a couple of months
Then get "married"...but make sure the shaman has the authority to do that. It would be ridiciolous if not. Imagine a peruvian guy coming to the States trying to find a butcher to marry him because he likes sausages.
BenevolentSon
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
I don't think anyone who is commited to being a member on a forum that deals a lot with spiritualism and the metaphysical would just be doing it because they want something "exotic".
No, if you go about it in the right manner, ie expressing your passion for their way of life and such then the community is not left behind with nothing, the shaman and community would realise that what they have done for this pair of lovers is a very important, lovely and spiritual thing. The community and shaman would be humble enough to at least reach that outlook on the situation. So I beleive this to be an exchange.
I find that last comment very rude to be honest. Trying to make a comparison like that. I'd amagine if Elf Machine and his/her partner were serious about doing this that they would have a passion or strong understanding of shamanism.
If your going to raise the issues that you did (and those potential issues needed to be raised) then do it in the right fashion when its related to such a delicate issue.
Elf Machine
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
Obliguhl, if your going to quote someone to substantiate your negative comments at least quote the the right person. Endlessness is who mentioned it being "exotic".
obliguhl said:
You should note that yes, a shaman is a sort of jungle priest. shamanism
obliguhl said:
I believe it would give the shaman happiness to be involved in the joining of 2 spirits.
BenevolentSon
Rising Star
Elf Machine said:
This is the point I was getting at.
This thread gives me romantic feelings. 
LMAO! I'm sure stranger things have happened. It is definitely important to research to find out how it would work best for you and what you need... but, with entheogens like Ayahuasca becoming available globally, cultures are bound to intersect and evolve.
This brings to mind my feelings about ritual, in general: are you doing something that has no relevance to you because some people living in an entirely different culture halfway around the globe do it? Or are you doing something meaningful to you? For example, I do smudge, but I have my own prayers and rituals about it that make it relevant to me. I also think, though, it's neat to continue the spirit of an earlier tradition. I am a different person in a different place and different circumstances... But I have clear intentions, and, the medicine clearly works, so in the end, who is to judge? What would indigenous and non-indigenous people have in common--but, the medicine? The core of the experience.
What is more sacred than sharing the core of the same ineffable experience with people in completely different cultures halfway around the globe? I think it's a sweet sign of respect to acknowledge the forces that preserved and made an experience of the sacred possible.
Haha... and totally awesome to share it with someone you love enough to spend the rest of your life with, too! *teary eyed*
LMAO! I'm sure stranger things have happened. It is definitely important to research to find out how it would work best for you and what you need... but, with entheogens like Ayahuasca becoming available globally, cultures are bound to intersect and evolve.
This brings to mind my feelings about ritual, in general: are you doing something that has no relevance to you because some people living in an entirely different culture halfway around the globe do it? Or are you doing something meaningful to you? For example, I do smudge, but I have my own prayers and rituals about it that make it relevant to me. I also think, though, it's neat to continue the spirit of an earlier tradition. I am a different person in a different place and different circumstances... But I have clear intentions, and, the medicine clearly works, so in the end, who is to judge? What would indigenous and non-indigenous people have in common--but, the medicine? The core of the experience.
What is more sacred than sharing the core of the same ineffable experience with people in completely different cultures halfway around the globe? I think it's a sweet sign of respect to acknowledge the forces that preserved and made an experience of the sacred possible.
Haha... and totally awesome to share it with someone you love enough to spend the rest of your life with, too! *teary eyed*
Elf Machine
Rising Star
ms_manic_minxx said:
This touches on a relevant point. One reason we want to explore marriage in a different concept is because we are spiritual people and don't really share western values. We want the vows taken to be more appropriate for us. An indigenous tribe might provide that.
Elf Machine. While I understand obliguhl's tone was quite strong, he wasnt disrespectful. He made a very correct criticism that often people go to indigenous tribes and relate in a very one-way attitude. He didnt just criticise but provide a very sensible suggestion, which is, if you are going to do it, then rather show respect and real interest by learning the language and working with them for longer than just the part that benefits you, putting something into the relationship. He also said something very relevant, which is to be aware of the exact culture you are going to, because it might be completely out of context to ask an indigenous 'shaman' to marry you.
Your response, on the other hand, is quite troubling from my perspective. You have talked in a very confrontational tone, with the "I know because I study this" attitude and finishing with a very condescending remark about how he should study shamanism from a wiki link. I humbly suggest that you reconsider how you are expressing yourself.
Also, Im waiting to hear if you have reasonable arguments regarding this "coming in as an outsider without offering something back" issue.
As for your reasons for doing, I understand you dont share western values but do you also understand that each indigenous tribe has very distinct values that can be completely opposite to each other? Did you ever visit or study any tribe/ethnic group in particular?
As you claim you study religions, then I guess you also know very well the diversity in religious practices that are 'forced' into the common definition of 'shamanism'. You could say that certain warrior-based collective practices such as cutting and collecting head of enemies to get their 'soul's power' are shamanism, or you can be talking about the loner-outside-the-village with his divination practices, or 'healing' of different kinds, or shamans that send magic darts to hurt other shamans, or the 'pajé' leader of a tribe, etc..
Note that all of these are part of activity systems, inserted in a certain cultural context, they arent 'independent' practices that can be removed from the context or changed and maintain its meaning. A marriage in the western sense is a concept, its a certain category we have invented with language, that does not necessarily coincide with categories in the language of certain indigenous groups.
Im sure the easiest thing in the world is to find someone with indigenous background to make whatever ritual you want if you pay them some money. But if you want to make it something meaningful not only for yourself but also for the 'shaman', I again suggest that you research particular tribes/ethnic groups and find one who's concept of love will be in harmony with yours, and go construct something collaboratively with them. Try to think what you can bring to them too, appart from just 'the happiness of joining two people' (and more than just pure cold money too). At least thats my take on it
Your response, on the other hand, is quite troubling from my perspective. You have talked in a very confrontational tone, with the "I know because I study this" attitude and finishing with a very condescending remark about how he should study shamanism from a wiki link. I humbly suggest that you reconsider how you are expressing yourself.
Also, Im waiting to hear if you have reasonable arguments regarding this "coming in as an outsider without offering something back" issue.
As for your reasons for doing, I understand you dont share western values but do you also understand that each indigenous tribe has very distinct values that can be completely opposite to each other? Did you ever visit or study any tribe/ethnic group in particular?
As you claim you study religions, then I guess you also know very well the diversity in religious practices that are 'forced' into the common definition of 'shamanism'. You could say that certain warrior-based collective practices such as cutting and collecting head of enemies to get their 'soul's power' are shamanism, or you can be talking about the loner-outside-the-village with his divination practices, or 'healing' of different kinds, or shamans that send magic darts to hurt other shamans, or the 'pajé' leader of a tribe, etc..
Note that all of these are part of activity systems, inserted in a certain cultural context, they arent 'independent' practices that can be removed from the context or changed and maintain its meaning. A marriage in the western sense is a concept, its a certain category we have invented with language, that does not necessarily coincide with categories in the language of certain indigenous groups.
Im sure the easiest thing in the world is to find someone with indigenous background to make whatever ritual you want if you pay them some money. But if you want to make it something meaningful not only for yourself but also for the 'shaman', I again suggest that you research particular tribes/ethnic groups and find one who's concept of love will be in harmony with yours, and go construct something collaboratively with them. Try to think what you can bring to them too, appart from just 'the happiness of joining two people' (and more than just pure cold money too). At least thats my take on it
Elf Machine
Rising Star
I appreciate everyones remarks regarding the question in the OP and ofcourse the positive responses I was looking for. Does anyone have any ideas yet what place would be a good one to research?
Maybe the first place to look is what were the indigenous marriage customs of wherever you currently live, if they haven't already been forgotten. Or maybe the marriage customs of your own ancestors, if they haven't already been forgotten. That search might inspire you to find the right place/culture to participate in.
@ endlessness: Yeah man, but Elf Machine is just asking nicely if anyone would help direct him some place where he can get married (symbolic concept) and then obliguhl responds like if Elf Machine didn't had a clue of what shamanism is. Judging by his previous posts, I bet obliguhl thinks of himself as a very "honest" soul sprinkled in love dust and then acts like he does. Anyway, I think he is a "hypocrite" soul sprinkled in delusions of grandeur (and I bet my ass I am not the only one who believes this).
@ obliguhl: Shamanism is not only a technique. Shamanism is many things, and marrying (or joining) two souls is something a shaman very much can do. He can function as a "jungle priest" among other things. A shaman can also function as a "desert healer" or a "mountain sorcerer"... hell, even as a "ghost-buster". On another note, your post was FULL of fallacies and strange assumptions, but hey, whatever.
@ Elf Machine: I already sent you a private message Best of luck to you and your fiancée.
@ obliguhl: Shamanism is not only a technique. Shamanism is many things, and marrying (or joining) two souls is something a shaman very much can do. He can function as a "jungle priest" among other things. A shaman can also function as a "desert healer" or a "mountain sorcerer"... hell, even as a "ghost-buster". On another note, your post was FULL of fallacies and strange assumptions, but hey, whatever.
@ Elf Machine: I already sent you a private message
Best of luck to you and your fiancée.
Elf Machine said:
Im sorry if the posts werent exactly what you were looking for, but thats how life is, right? If you are posting in an open forum to such a diverse group, you cant expect all the answers to be positive and just as you expect, right?
But as long as the answers are reasonable and if they are criticism, they are of a constructive kind, I guess thats great, no?
If you dont want to answer my comments and questions, thats fine its your choice, but I wonder why you are ignoring them because in my view they are reasonable concerns and I tried not to be in any way disrespectful to you.
I still wish you have a wonderful life with your wife an that you find what you're looking for, while being respectful to other cultures
clouds said:@ endlessness: Yeah man, but Elf Machine is just asking nicely if anyone would help direct him some place where he can get married (symbolic concept) and then obliguhl responds like if Elf Machine didn't had a clue of what shamanism is. Judging by his previous posts, I bet obliguhl thinks of himself as a very "honest" soul sprinkled in love dust and then acts like he does. Anyway, I think he is a "hypocrite" soul sprinkled in delusions of grandeur (and I bet my ass I am not the only one who believes this).
@ obliguhl: Shamanism is not only a technique. Shamanism is many things, and marrying (or joining) two souls is something a shaman very much can do. He can function as a "jungle priest" among other things. A shaman can also function as a "desert healer" or a "mountain sorcerer"... hell, even as a "ghost-buster". On another note, your post was FULL of fallacies and strange assumptions, but hey, whatever.
@ Elf Machine: I already sent you a private message
what obliguhl seems to you is your own business, as long as he isnt directly attacking you or going against the forum attitude, right? Why do you have to use this thread to 'poke' him more? If you have some problem with a particular post or comment from him, why dont you quote the part that concerns you and voice your criticism respectfully? This way he can see the feedback and regulate his own attitude.
But if you wait for some thread where someone else voices against him and then throw offenses such as that he's a hypocrite and with delusions of grandeur (and trying to 'legitimize' your answer by claiming others feel the same way, which is a falacious argument regarding the validity of your claims), then I feel bothered and feel that you are going in the confrontational attitude that we dont want in this forum. You are not offering any constructive criticism but rather talking in a way that can be interpreted as quite offensive, so I suggest you also rethink how you express yourself regarding other members in this forum.
Lastly, regarding your comment on what shamans can and cant do, I must say I dont agree (or dont think you worded that very clearly). As I explained in my other post, there is a great diversity under the name of 'shamanism', things that can be completely opposite. When you say a shaman can be a priest, you are making an assumption and a generalization. Maybe 'some' shamans will be able to be a part of a certain activity or perform some kind of ceremony that could relate to what we consider priesthood regarding marrying others (or maybe at least some of them would pretend it well enough for the right money), but to generalize that 'shamans' as a general group can do that is not correct. For some cultures this concept of marrying might make no sense at all, so we can only talk about this case-by-case.
I've recently finished a paper about tourism to indigenous groups, so i'm a bit sensitived for the issue. It's not a topic you can come to a conclusion during a forum post. Its also not something you can generalize. It doesn't have to have horrible consequences, but it can. I talked with my professor about this and he assured me, that not enough research has been done on the particular topic i was writing about. That's a problem and warrants caution for all travelers.
I also believe, that the term "Shaman" has been used to widely. This is also a common critique in social anthropology/ethnology. Not every indigenous witchdoctor, priest, or healer is a shaman. This is like saying "Every craftsmen is a mason". Thats just not differentiated enough. I thank you for the wikipedia link but i rather trust the word of my professor, who is an expert in religious ethnology and the books i've read...especially because of this:
Wikipedia is not a scientific source.
One of the biggest differences between a shaman and a priest is, that the shaman has direct contact to the other world, while the priest doesn't.
Regarding the "shamanism is not a technique" discussion: It is true, that shamanism is often attached to a certain cosmology, a worldview. But that does not make shamanism religious. It's a set of techniques, operating within a certain set of cultural rules.
I certainly do not want to ruin this wedding idea for anyone, but as endlessness said, this is "correct criticism". There are many layers to it, which are hard to see at first glance because its very easy to judge the situation from our own cultural point of view....which si generally a big, big problem.
I also believe, that the term "Shaman" has been used to widely. This is also a common critique in social anthropology/ethnology. Not every indigenous witchdoctor, priest, or healer is a shaman. This is like saying "Every craftsmen is a mason". Thats just not differentiated enough. I thank you for the wikipedia link but i rather trust the word of my professor, who is an expert in religious ethnology and the books i've read...especially because of this:
Wikipedia is not a scientific source.
One of the biggest differences between a shaman and a priest is, that the shaman has direct contact to the other world, while the priest doesn't.
Regarding the "shamanism is not a technique" discussion: It is true, that shamanism is often attached to a certain cosmology, a worldview. But that does not make shamanism religious. It's a set of techniques, operating within a certain set of cultural rules.
I certainly do not want to ruin this wedding idea for anyone, but as endlessness said, this is "correct criticism". There are many layers to it, which are hard to see at first glance because its very easy to judge the situation from our own cultural point of view....which si generally a big, big problem.
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