Martial arts?

[ewok]

MMA? lol. I wont bother to read this thread cus I don't care but I have seen little Korean men who could probly run cirlces around those guys. I did taekwondo for many years, competed frequently in full contact and won many competitions so I feel like I know somewhat what I am talking about. When I watch MMA often I feel like I am seeing big clunky men just sort of pound on each other..but they lack the speed and precision I have seen in even the oldest tiniest little Korean men and women.

I have known people who were in MMA and I don't think they compared to the masters I have encountered..they did get their asses handed to them in MMA though so I don't know lol.

I had one amazing teacher who taught the portugese Navy for years and my master was head of the world taekwondo association and both of those guys I think could kill most of those MMA guys if they wanted to(they wouldn't, they were masters and more enlightened than that whole MMA joke).

MMA is just a television bastardization of martial arts. Martial arts is not about what MMA is about. MMA is just about big men half of them probly on steroids competeing..and even though I did lots of it, I always hated competing and the way martial arts is usually approached in the west..which is why I moved away from it while at the same time moving more into something like surfing..which at it's core has a similar spirit in my opinion.

Oh please lets not run round in circles again.....

 

[SHroomtroll]

The problem with martial arts in the west is that most people have big egos and want to prove themself by competing.

I dont see competition as a bad thing though, its better that people fight other people who wants to fight instead of some random guy on the street.

Also i think alot of guys here have prejudice of mma just because the image and the fans which are just like other sports fans in general ie retarded.


Most mma fighters are very humble and down to earth, im a good friend with alot of high level mma guys and beleive me that getting beaten up in the ring or even sparring can be as humbling as ayahuasca.

But mma and ufc esp i a show and they need the trash talking and tough guy image to sell tickets etc.



And for the record mma is getting very evolved with world class kickboxers getting knocked out by grapplers and vice versa, you people who complain have not seen the right fights.



PS: Another classic fighter old school sakuraba

 

[Rising Spirit]

As a middle aged man who has seen far too much violence up close, I have no interest whatsoever in fighting, combat or anything of the sort. I have taken the martial out of my arts entirely, and am only focused on internal work and transcendental yogic alchemy. After all, this is where the fun stuff is.

You raise an interesting point here, just one of many. Thank you for your Medicine. What most strikes me as quite profound, is that elders in the "martial arts world", are not only respected as fountains of wisdom and practical knowledge... they are venerated out of courtesy and as a formal gesture of intense gratitude.

You don't see this degree of honor in professional sports, commercial martial arts schools or the mean, dirty streets. Being a graybeard is NOT the same in competitive martial arts, as it is in traditional martial arts circles. I personally embrace my grey hairs as love puppies and enjoy my own ripening. :thumb_up:

 

[jamie]

"Also i think alot of guys here have prejudice of mma just because the image and the fans which are just like other sports fans in general ie retarded."

Maybe, I never watched a whole lot of it so I don't know everyone involved. From the outside though it always looked to me to be an even more gross attempt at capturing the spirit of martial arts as the contests I used to attend for years. The bulk of the fans are a whole other story I guess..they have "UFC nights" at the pub beside my work.. uhh I am sure you can guess how that ends up looking by the end of the night.

It always seemed to me that many individuals really enjoyed the full contact competetions more than I did. I just went because I was encouraged to go..I never really like competing I just liked practicing my taekwondo. It was not that I was bad or anything..I wont lie I was good, I won many metals and I won first in BC for my age and weight one year and second in Washington, I nevber went to a contest where I did not place..but at least now that kind of means nothing to me, in part because I know that if I had been in korea I would not have placed like that. Those guys really are masters and they don't compete in MMA. They train their whole lives every single day for hours..while most in the west go to a casual class once or twice a week..there is no comparison..and these guys spend many hours in meditation..something that IME is rare in the western schools.

I had some really cliché experiences that would seem right out of karate kid or something as a teenager. Once I traveled to a contest and saw someone who I had to fight a year earlier and I placed second and him first..I went and said hello to him and he he told me he was going to "kick my ass"..I got first that contest and I think he got third and he never spoke to me again..I dunno what drives people to be this way but I think there is a lack of focus on the mental aspect of the art.

I had a great teacher though and his master was my master..master Woo Kim. I never saw the man spar..ever..but there was something about him..a wisdom that I will always appreciate. Something you have to earn. You could feel it when in his presence. This is the presence of a master. Someone with integrity.

It's not really just UFC..its just the western attitude. I see the same sort of attitude towards hunting..its all sport hunting shows with men with shaved heads and ATV's shooting things to mount on their walls. Then there is the true hunters, who hunt from the heart, in the old way of our ancestors.. ones whos focus is not on how many animals they can kill, or what trophy they can take back, but on their spiritual union with nature, the animals and the cycle of life they dance within.

 

[adam]

I think that ufc is a joke at least 90% of the fighters anyways don't fight with the proper intentions/ true warrior spirit. There are a few who do though. I met Jon Jones in person and he was a very cool guy and very humble. He is a very spirited fighter, he meditates everyday and dedicates his whole life to the sport. For some people even in the ufc, they are trying to master a craft, and this is admirable to me. Competition can bring out the best in people, and push people beyond what was previously assumed possible. Honestly though I like the UFC because you get to see the best fighters in the world using all sorts of techniques and the best rise to the top.

I am not a huge fan but I give respect where it is due, and some fighters in the mma deserve respect imo.

Personally though Ill stick with ultimate frisbee.8)

 

[jamie]

your going to find people everywhere, even in the most ridiculous of places worthy of respect..MMA is obviously not any different.

 

[adam]

As a middle aged man who has seen far too much violence up close, I have no interest whatsoever in fighting, combat or anything of the sort. I have taken the martial out of my arts entirely, and am only focused on internal work and transcendental yogic alchemy. After all, this is where the fun stuff is.

But alas, being an awake, present human often puts one in a position where one could use one's knowledge of dynamics, form and structure to influence, overpower, or otherwise engage others. I see these situations more than most as a DJ and producer of music, because... sadly, when people go out they drink, and drunk people tend to fight.

As such, I have made a "many decades long study" of the kind of violence that most people are likely to encounter. I often think to myself if my input in a given situation would be required or not. I have become expert at watching the energy flows that lead to conflict and how they get resolved in the presence of testosterone and alcohol.

My philosophy on this is to uplift the vibration of the scene as much as possible. To reach out in friendship and respect in ways that actually make a difference is a very subtle art. Much more profound than beating up a poor aggressor, is the ability to diffuse situations and avoid conflict altogether. THIS is the art of a real warrior. Using compassion, love and energy to keep fights from ever happening.

There have been countless times when my mere presence at an event kept people from being injured. Often without me moving an inch. This is not just some kind of psychic power, but it is also a practical and tangible ability to MAKE peace.

We had a tradition in the Rainbow Family of some truly peaceful warriors walking the encampment and keeping the peace. It is not a kind of security force, but we call ourselves shanti sena. Peace Keepers. Doing this kind of work is very enlightening. In the hands of young people with something to prove, it can devolve into vigilantism. (which I am firmly against) But in the spirit of love and brotherhood, strong warriors can prevent tragic things from ever occurring merely by their presence.

It is difficult to put into words, but quite often if I walk up to a group of people who are in a flash of emotion that is liable to lead to violence... me merely standing there and smiling benevolently, is enough to dispel evil that would have surely come.

I won't cite examples now, as this is already rather long. But I have yards and yards of practical examples of how the mind and energy work of the internal arts can defeat violence without even ever engaging it. In fact, that is the only way it really ever does. If you are pushed into a situation where you must act and use force on another, you have already failed.

HF

I agree with this ^^
As someone who has been in many fights for many ignorant reasons this is more where I am at. If you have resorted to violence you have already failed, I just want to spread the peace, and I find doing that as much an art as anything. That being said fighting does entertain me... i guess it is a primal ego thing, no?

 

[SHroomtroll]

Before i started training martial arts i always seemed to end up i trouble, i never wanted to fight but people kept picking them with me...


After i started bjj i guess my aura changed cause i never had to use it outside of the dojo except a few times where i basicly just had to restrain someone who was gonna hurt himself othervice.


That is for me the biggest pro by training grappling, it was to easilybe able neutralise someone who wants to fight without hurting them to much.

A quick trip and a chokehold usually calms people down enough, but like i said im really glad i dont have to use my skills at all outside of training.




Heres a great vid of one of my fav fighters,

Demian maia is a multiple world champ in bjj, his philosohpy in the fight is that he wants to prove he can take people out without hurting them.... to much:lol:

 

[armbarsalot]

BJJ/Martial Arts - Psychonautics - Individuation all compliment each other. All involve exploration of the self and require testicular fortitude and constant renewal.

Personally i can't imagine my connection to the world as I know it without them. Now the way i touch a fabric, experience an emotion or dance all are on a different level. My experience in martial arts has nothing to do with violence and everything to do about connection & dissolving the ego. As i progress over the next decade i expect these senses to be enhanced to 'black belt level' psychedelic ninja soul surfer. A level which at this time i can't comprehend but have learned through my trials that will happen if i keep getting on the mats, taking entheogens and listening to my subconsious.

Peace, Pot, Microdot

 

[SHroomtroll]

Here´s a video that gives a good message about mma, its about a journeyman fighter who´s had a really tough life but turned away from doing stupid shit and found mma as a way to express himself.

Today he is very succesful and could have a title shot with a win or two, but he never gave up his dream and thats the point in life i think.

Please take the time to watch this its mostly talk and not a fight video, its very inspirational and even if your not into martial arts at all its worth your time imo.

 

[emptymind]

Its funny that those who practice traditional arts are the ones challenging and mocking mma, yet making claims about how challenging other arts doesnt matter to them.

My only question is, HF, how do you know your techniques work? You claim that you could kill a man with some 5 point strike, but how do you know? Does your instructor bring in homeless people off the street for you to practice on or something, and you guys just hide the bodies? Or are you just assuming they work with no evidence? Could you demonstrate this strike on me without hurting me? And if not, how have you practiced it enough to be good enough at it to be able to do it while someone is punching you in the face?

 

[emptymind]

I think that ufc is a joke at least 90% of the fighters anyways don't fight with the proper intentions/ true warrior spirit. There are a few who do though. I met Jon Jones in person and he was a very cool guy and very humble. He is a very spirited fighter, he meditates everyday and dedicates his whole life to the sport. For some people even in the ufc, they are trying to master a craft, and this is admirable to me. Competition can bring out the best in people, and push people beyond what was previously assumed possible. Honestly though I like the UFC because you get to see the best fighters in the world using all sorts of techniques and the best rise to the top.

I am not a huge fan but I give respect where it is due, and some fighters in the mma deserve respect imo.

Personally though Ill stick with ultimate frisbee.8)

So Jon Jones does fight with proper intentions but others dont? It seems that those who are bashing mma and the arts that go with it dont know much about it. The vast majority of mma fighters are very humble.

 

[adam]

I should say from what I glean of the fighters on television there intentions don't seem that of dedicated martial artist. I might be wrong. I don't know,Rampage Jackson is a guy who just doesn't seem like a fighter who embodies the spirit of the warrior, nor Chuck Lidell. Certainly there are many mma fighters who do but, it seems like the popular ones aren't what I would qualify as humble spirited warriors. That being said this is a generalization.

 

[SHroomtroll]

Mma is mostly a sport nowadays, somewhere a few years ago the results showed that being strong, athletic and having good cardio could nulify a weaker but slightly less skilled fighter.

There are a some exceptions of course but most weight classes are dominated by american wrestlers who are in insane shape and have learned decent enough striking to be able to hang with better standup fighters, but with them usually being alot stronger and having better grappling cardio than their oponents they can usually dictate where the fight goes and spam takedowns untill the opponent wears out and can be defeated.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Its funny that those who practice traditional arts are the ones challenging and mocking mma, yet making claims about how challenging other arts doesnt matter to them.

My only question is, HF, how do you know your techniques work? You claim that you could kill a man with some 5 point strike, but how do you know? Does your instructor bring in homeless people off the street for you to practice on or something, and you guys just hide the bodies? Or are you just assuming they work with no evidence? Could you demonstrate this strike on me without hurting me? And if not, how have you practiced it enough to be good enough at it to be able to do it while someone is punching you in the face?

I know my techniques work because I have used them in real situations. Maybe you didn't read all of what I have written here, but I have disarmed armed opponents. I managed to defeat a machete wielding opponent with ease... and without hurting him. I think a silly steroid taking tough guy is not even a contest.

When I was young I used to fight a lot. I won competitions in a number of arts, and was undefeated in national shotokan competition. Before I even learned the more masterful techniques of kung fu, I could hold my own against all of the toughest kids in school, and I went to school in Los Angeles. I can safely say that I know what I am talking about.

If over 40 years of experience in the arts doesn't qualify me to have an opinion... then what does? I am sorry if I hurt your feelings about your love of TV wrestling with some punching thrown in... but get over it. If the fact that I can break stacks of solid oak board without even trying doesn't mean anything to you... just remember that most of the weak points in the human body require a tiny fraction of that power to break bones and kill people.

I never said anything about a 5 point strike. And the idea we would practice on homeless people is abhorrent. I am sorry my friend, but even suggesting something like that is rather offensive. If you are not experienced enough in actual combat to know that what you see on UFC is not real... sorry. The reason why real martial artists poo poo MMA... is that MMA is fake. It is not real combat. If I hit you once in your floating rib... it will break, and puncture a vital organ. If I hit your windpipe... it will collapse, and you will likely die before the ambulance arrives. This is not conjecture, it is physics.

Wrestling is not combat. It is a sport. Get over it.

HF

 

[emptymind]

Its funny that those who practice traditional arts are the ones challenging and mocking mma, yet making claims about how challenging other arts doesnt matter to them.

My only question is, HF, how do you know your techniques work? You claim that you could kill a man with some 5 point strike, but how do you know? Does your instructor bring in homeless people off the street for you to practice on or something, and you guys just hide the bodies? Or are you just assuming they work with no evidence? Could you demonstrate this strike on me without hurting me? And if not, how have you practiced it enough to be good enough at it to be able to do it while someone is punching you in the face?

I know my techniques work because I have used them in real situations. Maybe you didn't read all of what I have written here, but I have disarmed armed opponents. I managed to defeat a machete wielding opponent with ease... and without hurting him. I think a silly steroid taking tough guy is not even a contest.

When I was young I used to fight a lot. I won competitions in a number of arts, and was undefeated in national shotokan competition. Before I even learned the more masterful techniques of kung fu, I could hold my own against all of the toughest kids in school, and I went to school in Los Angeles. I can safely say that I know what I am talking about.

If over 40 years of experience in the arts doesn't qualify me to have an opinion... then what does? I am sorry if I hurt your feelings about your love of TV wrestling with some punching thrown in... but get over it. If the fact that I can break stacks of solid oak board without even trying doesn't mean anything to you... just remember that most of the weak points in the human body require a tiny fraction of that power to break bones and kill people.

I never said anything about a 5 point strike. And the idea we would practice on homeless people is abhorrent. I am sorry my friend, but even suggesting something like that is rather offensive. If you are not experienced enough in actual combat to know that what you see on UFC is not real... sorry. The reason why real martial artists poo poo MMA... is that MMA is fake. It is not real combat. If I hit you once in your floating rib... it will break, and puncture a vital organ. If I hit your windpipe... it will collapse, and you will likely die before the ambulance arrives. This is not conjecture, it is physics.

Wrestling is not combat. It is a sport. Get over it.

HF

You certainly didnt hurt my feelings. If anything I feel for you, the same way I feel for that Kai guy who gets wrecked in that fight. The same way I feel for the students of teachers like this guy.

And yes, you did say something about a five point strike. Quoting you-
"I know I would have no problem doing a 5 point strike in that position that would leave anyone dead. (fingetips, knuckles, fist, forearm, elbow in one smooth motion)
No patty cake crap. One strike... Dead."

Page 3 post 58 of this thread. How exactly do you know it would kill someone if youve never done it? All sorts of strikers-boxers, kickboxers, and mma fighters, hit each other in the ribs all the time, and rarely does ones rib break and puncture organs. Hitting someones windpipe is very dangerous I agree, but hitting someone square on the jaw will usually knock them unconscious.. If an expert could hit someones windpipe in a fight couldnt they just hit them in the jaw instead?


I have never heard of someone who does a martial art that has been proven to work in mma switching over to one of these traditional arts. It is very common to find people who started in other arts and made their way over to bjj or some similar art though, (myself included.)

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

You certainly didnt hurt my feelings. If anything I feel for you, the same way I feel for that Kai guy who gets wrecked in that fight. The same way I feel for the students of teachers like this guy.

And yes, you did say something about a five point strike. Quoting you-
"I know I would have no problem doing a 5 point strike in that position that would leave anyone dead. (fingetips, knuckles, fist, forearm, elbow in one smooth motion)
No patty cake crap. One strike... Dead."

Page 3 post 58 of this thread. How exactly do you know it would kill someone if youve never done it? All sorts of strikers-boxers, kickboxers, and mma fighters, hit each other in the ribs all the time, and rarely does ones rib break and puncture organs. Hitting someones windpipe is very dangerous I agree, but hitting someone square on the jaw will usually knock them unconscious.. If an expert could hit someones windpipe in a fight couldnt they just hit them in the jaw instead?


I have never heard of someone who does a martial art that has been proven to work in mma switching over to one of these traditional arts. It is very common to find people who started in other arts and made their way over to bjj or some similar art though, (myself included.)

There is a difference between the cinematic death strike where they hit a certain number of points and the opponent dies, and the strike I was referring to. I suppose I used a misleading term, but I think I explained it fine after. You hit someone with your fingertips and in the same motion hit them with each set of knuckles, and then the full fist... then continue the motion into a forearm smash, an elbow strike, and depending on the position of the opponent you can add a shoulder toss. The point is that in the time it takes a boxer to throw two jabs, you can not only hit someone 5 or more times, but hone in on a vital area, and simultaneously create involuntary tensions in the location that you continue to exploit in every strike.

If you don't see people getting their floating ribs broken in MMA... it is just yet another piece of evidence that the stuff is fake. It takes a paltry 3 to 5 pounds of pressure per square inch to break one of the 4 floating ribs. I can generate many multiples of that with a glancing blow while off balance. Even in boxing with fat gloves, people suffer this kind of injury occasionally... and boxers are not trained to strike there with leopard paws.

I don't know what studies you have seen about what arts people start with and move on to... but the trend I see is that young people like to compete and fight in sport style martial arts while older people tend to lose interest in these things and become focused on meditation, internal work and yogic stuff. Nearly every external martial artist I knew growing up is now focused on internal stuff... or not practicing at all. There is a reason you rarely see people of middle age doing sport arts or caring about fighting.

Also, this talk of some agglomeration of every martial art as "traditional martial arts" as if that is something that can be compared to MMA... is laughable. Some "traditional" martial arts can be mastered in a matter of a few years. Others take decades. Lumping some tae kwon do taught at the local gym in with something like shaolin is not even worth addressing to be honest.

Your indication that I am anything like the people in your comical youtube videos is baseless and a major falsehood. I could link to videos of people beating MMA artists unconscious in street fights but what would be the point? Cherry picking is a logical fallacy.

You ask why people don't hit the jaw when they could hit the windpipe? Because real combat is about killing and MMA is not. Simple. Besides, why on earth would you hit a bone that could injure your fist when you can do more damage with an open hand?

Kung Fu masters only fight if there is no other alternative possible. In such situation there is no time to dance around and hug each other on the floor for god awful amounts of time. Often there are multiple attackers... and armed ones. So, you strike to kill. You gouge eyes, shatter vertebrae, hyper extend joints to compound fracture, destroy testicles and even worse things. The fact that you don't do any of this in UFC means it is not combat. There is no debate about this.

You are enamored of your sport. Fine. Don't make the mistake of thinking your sport with rules is a real "martial" art. It is not.

Sorry,
HF

 

[bub]

Hyperspace Fool I really enjoyed reading your post. Your Sifu sounds like a real Master. Please write a book about it

Tattvamasi, nice to hear from a fellow Muay Thai warrior.

I took Judo classes at 8 or 9 years old and then changed discipline to Dai Nippon Butoku Kai.

At school I studied fencing as a class and the art of street fighting for survival. Martial arts weapons of choice were throwing stars made in metalwork class and an improvised, cut down broom handle and chain nunchaku. The technique I learned from hours of Bruce Lee films.

After semi-contact I studied the "Art of Eight Limbs" Muay Thai boxing. Muay comes from the Sanskrit word 'Mavya' which translates to "join together" and which I believe relates to the joining of the head, arms, fists and spirit. I took 3 sessions a week for about 15 years under a world champion Master. "Wherever your head goes the body will follow" was his favourite quote which still makes me smile.

I enjoyed full-contact sparring and entered a few club fights. The waiting to go in the ring was always the killer for me. I started to feel 'sharp' in both body and mind after a few years training. I honed my punches and crafted my kicks to devastating effect. After around 5 years training I felt a sort of 'split'. My body was reacting almost automatically to my opponent whilst a fight on another level was happening in our minds. Not sure if anyone else has encountered this? I still ponder over this awesome feeling.

The Muay Thai training and body conditioning was relentless under my Thai Master but I loved the discipline and the quite inner confidence it gave me which I carry to this day. It's like having $100 in your back pocket at all times feeling. It's there if you need it but I know I never will.

Over the past years I might have lost a little stamina but never the techniques. I’m too middle aged for spinning back kicks these days but would love to find a gentler martial art to compliment my inner work if anyone has any recommendations please?

endlessness I agree, martial arts is one of the best.

 

[armbarsalot]

Muay Thai is great! King of the Ring. I trained it for 5-6 yrs, had a few fights, went to thailand ect but realized its not the sport to get old to. Hence switching to bjj. It takes a few yrs to get to the point where your relaxed & not tweaking stuff as much but i can honestly say i've trained & competed all over the world in the last few years and have been injury free.

the who, what & how arguments of martial arts are nauseating, you can post a million times and not change anyone's mind. Live, Love, Fight.

 

[Jarppi]

I'm an enthusiastic BJJ practitioner, I've also trained both MMA and muay thai and I firmly believe in the effectiveness of all these in a situation where a violent action is inevitable. The doubts I have regarding the traditional arts and some of the techniques they teach is the inability to drill them realistically, how am I supposed to perform a 5 point death strike (and I don't mean to mock, it's just a technique mentioned here and I don't know the names of the traditional techniques) under stress in midst of the chaos of a fight if I've never been able to work in the muscle memory under these circumstances? I really like BJJ because you can go pretty much full blast during sparring sessions without fearing serious injury, let alone death.