Masochistic Contract

[fink]

Late this evening I was mulling over some family issues with my foundation of love and mother of our children.

We discussed for a while and put those turbulent relatives to rest then found ourselves on soul contracts again.

Spontaneously we found ourselves in a comedy sketch about the moments we both chose this life. The story became so funny in our mirthless, sardonic style.


So we sat in the soul contract office choosing what life to experience next. We threw in all the obvious elements that a veteran conscious agent would go for. Dysfunctional childhood families to grow up in. Alcoholic mother. A huge deceit here. Dark secrets revealed too late. Betrayals and confrontations. The whole show.

I mean, after who remembers how many easy life times you have to spice it up a little to achieve any real growth. Standard stuff.

But here comes the masochistic part. We imagined us egging each other on.

"Alcoholic mother? Again? Pffft, done that loads already too easy."

"Oh yeah, but I bet you never choose the option for her to walk out on the family right at the most critical moment. And...and..
..she will be physically abusive this time"

"Hah, come on, I did that on life 17. Too easy"

"Whatever, what's so hard about your plan then?"

"Oh, I'm going for biological father walking out but my mother lying to me for the first 16 years, I'll believe the man who raises me is my real father until it all comes out just before I reach adulthood"

"Not that bad"

"Yeah you'd think, but I've also picked my real biological father to live two streets away the whole time and to finally approach me through a social.media message out of the blue"

"Not that bad...pretty weak actually"

"Oh yeah...well....well...I'm also going for chronic arthritis from late teens. How's that?

"Arthritis...hmm..where."

"My hand. No...BOTH hands"

"Shit, really?"

"Yup, I'm pushing the button for that now."

"Well, uh, well I'm going for a neck injury. I'll be in chronic pain pretty much every day of my adult life until I die."

"Easy"

"Sure, piece of cake"

"Right, press confirm then"

"You press confirm"

"I'll do it right after I see you commit"

"Fine...on three. One. Two. Ooh man here we go....THREE!"

"See you in 32 years! Loooooooove you!"

 

[Sakkadelic]

Floating in the eternal emptiness of the void, you hear a voice "hey you, wanna be a starving street beggar with elephantiasis feet?". "Fuck yes sign me up!"

 

[fink]

Yeah, some souls really go full power on the choices huh? Street begger with giant limbs makes anything we experience seem like pre-school.

I'm visualising the same pre-flight jitters as a DMT trip, multiplied by 1000. That moment where you commit and hit the start button knowing what you've lined up for yourself.

Here we gooooooo!

 

[Sakkadelic]

I haven't thought of it as a full choice before but rather accepting whatever is offered/decided by god. But considering thoughts like the oneness of being or that we are god dreaming/fooling ourselves it makes sense that we make the full choice.

I'm visualising the same pre-flight jitters as a DMT trip, multiplied by 1000. That moment where you commit and hit the start button knowing what you've lined up for yourself.

Haha damn I can totally picture that. And it lines up with the moment of exiting the womb?

I often thought that if I had the chance to change anything in my life and myself I would choose not to, even when I am unhappy. Seems like I totally made that choice haha. As you said, some hardship is needed to spice things up and give meaning to life.

I call dibs on being the town's fool wearing 7 pants for next round.

 

[northape]

This is all speculation on our part. No one knows for sure how it works, and you can simply choose any view that resonates and is practical for you.

I particularly like how Sri Ramana Maharshi describes it:
Before an incarnation, God selects from our bundle of karma what is useful for our maturation. This script, called prarabdha, then governs our life.
That karma is given out of Love so we can recognize our illusory small I and awaken to our true Self.

That's a nice, simple explanation that should be enough to satisfy curiosity.
Ultimately, this knowledge leads nowhere. One just needs an answer to put the mind at ease.

 

[fink]

I haven't thought of it as a full choice before but rather accepting whatever is offered/decided by god. But considering thoughts like the oneness of being or that we are god dreaming/fooling ourselves it makes sense that we make the full choice.


Haha damn I can totally picture that. And it lines up with the moment of exiting the womb?

I often thought that if I had the chance to change anything in my life and myself I would choose not to, even when I am unhappy. Seems like I totally made that choice haha. As you said, some hardship is needed to spice things up and give meaning to life.

I call dibs on being the town's fool wearing 7 pants for next round.

Yes, I hear your thoughts clearly. Somehow the fear of hitting the start button for the womb ride seems tied to the knowledge that we will forget it's a game that we set for ourselves.

If you get to be the fool, can I be your cat? I'd like to be a cat for a go.

Ape, you are right of course. Speculation only. Though I do combine many experiences that form the belief that we are that One awareness. So even if Sri Ramana Maharshi's explanation were it, in my reality it's still me (us) setting the rules of the game.

No matter how many fragments the One is split into, no matter how impossibly intricate the fractal levels of consciousness are constructed, no matter how far we fall from God.... if we follow the chain for eternity we always come back to One. One lonely, eternal everything.

 

[northape]

Ape, you are right of course. Speculation only. Though I do combine many experiences that form the belief that we are that One awareness. So even if Sri Ramana Maharshi's explanation were it, in my reality it's still me (us) setting the rules of the game.

We have no contradiction here. As I said, everyone chooses a view that puts their mind at ease.
It's not that one view is better or higher than another.
I like to adopt the outlook of sages because there is power, or perhaps grace, in their words.

No matter how many fragments the One is split into, no matter how impossibly intricate the fractal levels of consciousness are constructed, no matter how far we fall from God.... if we follow the chain for eternity we always come back to One. One lonely, eternal everything.

Sri Ramana would simply ask, “Who is having these ideas?” His method and philosophy were quite simple; it's all about Being.
Turn 180 degrees and look at who's looking. Furthermore, I doubt that the One is lonely. You need others to feel lonely.
The One is pure bliss and love, forever beyond human concepts, imo. It's an eternal emptiness, yet also an eternal fullness.
Much love

 

[blig-blug]

I don't believe in it literally or really see it that way, but in an experience I had, the unborn spirits were choosing what fetus to enter, but they didn't know the future it would have. They entered the fetus the moment it became aware, and they were aware of being incarnated spirits until they forgot during their childhood. I remember seeing adults mistreating the children and the spirits forgetting their "essence" in the process. Also with learning language.

 

[northape]

I don't believe in it literally or really see it that way, but in an experience I had, the unborn spirits were choosing what fetus to enter, but they didn't know the future it would have. They entered the fetus the moment it became aware, and they were aware of being incarnated spirits until they forgot during their childhood. I remember seeing adults mistreating the children and the spirits forgetting their "essence" in the process. Also with learning language.

Tibetans believe that after death, if your karma pulls you towards incarnation, you're going to see couples copulating. You're then reborn to the one you've been attracted to.
For example, if you're a boy, you are here because of your mother in a number of ways… Where is Uncle Freud?

Who knows what's real? Most of it is our human imagination. Getting older, I came to understand a simple fact: I don't know anything, and no one else does.
Maybe there are sages on this Earth, but I've never met one. I will never be reborn as I am today. My incarnation would just have the same flame I got from my previous one.
What's that essence, then? Who wants to know?

Do your best Today, love, and be kind

 

[blig-blug]

Tibetans believe that after death, if your karma pulls you towards incarnation, you're going to see couples copulating. You're then reborn to the one you've been attracted to.
For example, if you're a boy, you are here because of your mother in a number of ways… Where is Uncle Freud?

Who knows what's real? Most of it is our human imagination. Getting older, I came to understand a simple fact: I don't know anything, and no one else does.
Maybe there are sages on this Earth, but I've never met one. I will never be reborn as I am today. My incarnation would just have the same flame I got from my previous one.
What's that essence, then? Who wants to know?

Do your best Today, love, and be kind

I fully agree. This sutta expresses something similar MN 72

 

[northape]

I fully agree. This sutta expresses something similar MN 72

There's a lot in that sutta. You found the origin of Madhyamaka
Any view is a wrong view. Reality lies in the abyss of not-knowing.
Translator's intro from The Wisdom Chapter by Jamgon Mipham:

Excellent, worthy Gotama! … From this day forth, may the worthy Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone for refuge for life.

Yeah, people complicate things. See how simple refuge worked in the beginning - no need for any ceremonies.

 

[Sakkadelic]

No matter how many fragments the One is split into, no matter how impossibly intricate the fractal levels of consciousness are constructed

Wow this really blows my mind! I mean of course consciousness is fractal, how else can it be? Why did I not think of it before when fractlas are at the center of my understanding of existence, strange. I need to think of this more deeply.

If you get to be the fool, can I be your cat? I'd like to be a cat for a go.

Hop on little buddy!
To get back to the theme, please don't eat my face when I get run over by a car :b it'll be a long time before that happens and we'll have plenty of adventures!

@northape I totally agree with it being speculations, but for me I wouldn't even use the word speculation, bcz I'm not trying to solve the unsolvable mystery. But yes as fink said, my thoughts are the culmination of the experiences I had, and I believe everyone should have their own understanding of what it's all about, no matter how educated/experienced you are or not, your own understanding is the most important to you, and no one's understanding is more valuable than the other, of course the more educated the more intricate it becomes, but the mystery presents itself to everyone that is looking, no matter their level of education. So I will gladly state and discuss my thoughts with no ignorance disclamers but I will not defend them.

I appreciate your and @blig-blug's comments, they're insightful and I resonate with them.

 

[blig-blug]

I think speculation is great, because it helps us appreciate the mystery more. Thinking about the many ways it could be, we realize how little we know.

 

[northape]

@northape I totally agree with it being speculations, but for me I wouldn't even use the word speculation, bcz I'm not trying to solve the unsolvable mystery. But yes as fink said, my thoughts are the culmination of the experiences I had, and I believe everyone should have their own understanding of what it's all about, no matter how educated/experienced you are or not, your own understanding is the most important to you, and no one's understanding is more valuable than the other, of course the more educated the more intricate it becomes, but the mystery presents itself to everyone that is looking, no matter their level of education. So I will gladly state and discuss my thoughts with no ignorance disclamers but I will not defend them.
I appreciate your and @blig-blug's comments, they're insightful and I resonate with them.

That was my point. You presented it quite well, thank you. I tend to go on philosophy rants a lot; hope it's fine
Right logic should disassemble all logic and leave you with nothing. What that nothing is, is the question.
Education and intellect play very limited role in the end. We have accounts of many village yogis, without basic education, who achieved the highest goal.

I'm smart enough to know that I'm dumb. That's about it. It's better to be morally sound and humane than to have a high IQ, imo
Eastern philosophy fascinates me, because it resonates with how I've come to see life.
Things like impermanence, interdependence, and basic goodness seem very obvious to me. You can see them everywhere if you look.

This story has nothing to do with reality, but it shows the general idea behind my view:

We're living in a mental asylum, and everyone is sick. Some pretend to be doctors and take on the role of leaders. Then someday, a new guy arrives.

He has no roles, no message to preach, or anything, but simply by being near him, we become silent and at peace. Somehow, people start to heed his advice, even the self-proclaimed doctors.

So we ask: How can we heal ourselves?

His answer is simple: You are not sick. A long time ago, you agreed to play a game where you're a patient in a mental ward. You went all in and forgot that it's a play. Just see who you really are.

We doubt him. How could it be so simple? Maybe he has some hidden agenda to answer that way?

However, the guy never changes; he's as content by himself as he is with others. More and more people gather around him. They have no idea why they do it. Just being around the guy feels good, and somehow, that's enough. That guy is the Buddha. He is awake to the Truth, and by being awake, he's content.

 

[fink]

Speculation is a scientific term. Science is a method, a very effective one at that. Speculation denotes a lack of evidence, as such basically worthless in scientific terms.

Logic on the other hand can be free of the scientific method while maintaining value.

For example, using logic I can be 100% certain that when we die there are only two options. Either there is nothing at all. Or there is something. I do not need to die (to perform a scientific experiment) to know this. Logic is enough.

Continuing with logic as my weapon, I can take one of those either/or guaranteed options to discover that if there IS something after death it must end in a single point.

That is to say, that even if in the 'beginning' there were two separate Gods the question would still be open to how did they come into existence.

So for me, the only logical answer is that the source of everything must be a single point that always was.

A scientific materialist gets there by believing the physical miracle, the singularity that explodes. It's still speculation. Too many holes in the evidence. But using logic it is a satisfactory explanation for that.

If you instead experience and believe in the spiritual miracle, that awareness always was and that you are IT, this allows you to shape this reality in our life here. It also allows you to create an infinite universe of play and discovery when you die from this realm.

If you are wrong and it turns out there is nothing when we die, not even awareness, then no loss. It was coming anyway.

But if you are right, if awareness is fundamental and eternal, the logic states that you are a fragment of God with the power to believe and manifest any and all experiences.

To me, that clearly proves via logic that we can know. Genuine belief is knowing. I do believe there is more than this life thus, if I follow the path back to the source, I have the ability to create endless universes simply with awareness.

If I am wrong and there is nothing after death, then who cares? It's a win-win theology.

 

[blig-blug]

the only logical answer is that the source of everything must be a single point that always was

Why? How?

You could also say that something came out of nothing, as "nothing" implies also no rules that would prevent something from arising. Two gods, twenty, or the whole universe as it was three seconds ago. Maybe the universe has just now popped into existence, with all our memories already in it.

These ideas are all speculation, and neither of them is a logical conclusion from the assumption that there is something after death.

 

[blig-blug]

Also, I'm not contending that scientific knowledge rests on a set of assumptions that can't be proven. That is very true. Science works very well in certain areas of knowledge, in others not so well.

About logic: there are more systems of logic than propositional logic, which is the one you're basing your deductions on (in fact, there are infinite possible systems of logic). Logic systems also rest on an arbitrary set of axioms and rules to derive new statements from known statements. Some systems seem to work well for certain aspects of this reality, like science does for some too. But in the end any logic system will rest on bases that can't be proven.

 

[northape]

For example, using logic I can be 100% certain that when we die there are only two options. Either there is nothing at all. Or there is something. I do not need to die (to perform a scientific experiment) to know this. Logic is enough.

Human logic has limitations, like your binary approach. The Truth lies beyond any logic; that's the message in almost all ancient traditions. You need to see a place beyond the intellect at least once to get it, and you've seen it many times

If you instead experience and believe in the spiritual miracle, that awareness always was and that you are IT, this allows you to shape this reality in our life here. It also allows you to create an infinite universe of play and discovery when you die from this realm.

You are IT (Tat tvam asi), but your "I" is just an object appearing in awareness. It's easy to investigate and see. This apparent "I" is just a bunch of thoughts. So yes, awareness endures, and even our basic habits will endure death, but not this character you've come to love.

But if you are right, if awareness is fundamental and eternal, the logic states that you are a fragment of God with the power to believe and manifest any and all experiences.

That fragment of God is not the "I", but the energy behind it. It's like electricity, making this "I" possible.
This energy has no agenda. It just IS.

 

[LuxObscura]

I like logic that disassembles all logic and leaves you with nothing. What that nothing is, is the question.

The interesting point is that this is even possible.
We can disassemble one logic framework with a different one.
Binary logic is sufficient for many topics.
For example, a pencil gets dull when you use it.

However, in my opinion, binary logic is not always sufficient.
In quantum physics, for instance, where the topic is probability,
a bit doesn't just have two states.

With existential questions, in my opinion, things get complicated again.
While, following Aristotle, Hume or other empiricists, we can say that an elephant exists,
it becomes more difficult within an empirically shaped logical framework
when we talk about the existence of unicorns.
Aristotle would probably say it’s a waste of time to even think about such existence,
because it’s not tangible.
And I think, from one of many possible perspectives, he isn’t wrong.

However, when one moves in the direction of metaphysics,
which often deals with conceptual topics, the situation changes.
I would even say that the statement "A square circle does not exist" can itself be considered as existing.
And that, in my opinion, is the most extreme example.
You might ask: how can something that doesn’t exist, still exist?

I think this is a pseudo-paradox.
Because as a concept, it does exist, otherwise we wouldn’t be able to talk about it,
even if it can never exist in reality or physically.
But it also tells us something beyond that:
In this case, the conceptual existence of something contradictory reveals to us that it cannot exist in reality.
And the statement that something cannot exist is itself existent.
And that, to me, feels like a miracle.

If I am wrong and there is nothing after death, then who cares? It's a win-win theology.

This reminds me of the brain-in-a-vat theory and its consequences and implications.
There are two scenarios and two perspectives or coping strategies.

Scenarios:
1. Brain in a vat.
2. Brain not in a vat.

Coping strategies:
1. Despair and shrugging.
2. Keep going.

One might assume that if consciousness exists because the brain is in a vat,
then it doesn’t matter how we act in this reality.
But the point is: we don’t know which scenario we’re in.
And just because we might be stuck in the brain-in-a-vat scenario,
reacting with despair would negatively affect both scenarios,
regardless of which one is true.
We might as well be in the real scenario.
But even if not, this approach would also apply to the brain-in-a-vat case.

The win-win here is that it doesn’t matter which scenario you’re in,
because you always benefit from continuing.

 

[blig-blug]

@fink , but why do you assume that believing that after death you don't exist anymore equals suffering and despair? You can believe that and be happy, or believe in eternal life and be miserable.

The original Pascal's Wager was based on the idea that if the Christian God exists you better believe in him or he'll punish you forever, and as that's maximally bad, the correct behavior is to believe no matter how unlikely God's existence seems. That's a faulty reasoning for other reasons (mainly not taking into consideration the infinite alternatives to "the Christian God exists", and also assuming that said God wouldn't prefer honest disbelief to disingenuous "belief"), but doesn't argue that you'll be miserable in this life if you don't believe.

Edit: sorry fink, I think I misread some comments of yours above, so ignore my question and take this post just as a comment in general