meditation and entheogens

[MuteUSO]

Hi Everybody!

I just wanted to take the opportunity to say hello! I am a member of several other online fora discussing mind altering substances and practices. And like many of the members, I was already lurking and reading a lot here in the past. Doing so, I always had the feel that this is not only an unusually knowledgeable but also pretty "mellow" (for the lack of a better word) community. I really like and can identify with how people here treat each other and would love to be part of this fascinating group and contribute to it thriving.

The topic of expanding consciousness truly fascinates me and I believe that it deserves a much more central - as well as positive - position in our society. I believe that communities like the DMT-Nexus are the first necessary steps towards this and would love contributing to facilitating this move. I am working as a social researcher and would love to study this topic in more depth. I also hope to get some inspiration for this here and share my insights and expertise as well. While entheogens and the related experiences start to be rediscovered by the "hard" sciences, there is also a need for the "soft" sciences to chime in and facilitate a better understanding about their place and meaning in contemporary society.

With regard to my personal use of conscious expanding substances, I am certainly no virgin when it comes to the usage of mind altering substances I would also struggle to consider myself some sort of "heavy user" or very experienced. I rather see these as tools for supporting me on my spiritual journey which should not be abused. In this respect, I am currently particularly interested in exploring the relationship between meditation and entheogens. I have been practicing meditation regularly for several years (Daoist Neidan) and started to incorporate entheogens into my meditation practice (or the other way around ).

From my "experiments" so far, I believe that meditation can significantly alter and enhance psychedelic experiences, in positive ways. Conversely, entheogens help me to reach much deeper meditative states. The latter is especially true for lower doses, such as 0.1-1.5g of Cyans or threshold doses of Salvia. I am only at the beginning of this exploration but believe that it is an interesting path - definitely worth, and necessary, discussing in more depth. I truly hope that I will find the right community for this here.

Thanks for having me - let's keep the good vibes!

 

[brewster]

Hi MuteUSO,

welcome!
I'm looking forward to talking about this, since it is of great interest to me. My practice is Vipassana meditation, and I believe that meditation and psychedelics can be combined to great effect.

My path was as so many others - came in contacts with psychedelics rather accidentally, has very impressiive experiences which sparked my interest in meditation. Of course there is a great spectrum on how to employ both things, so I'm interested in your practice - never heard the term before.

 

[MuteUSO]

Hi MuteUSO,

welcome!
I'm looking forward to talking about this, since it is of great interest to me. My practice is Vipassana meditation, and I believe that meditation and psychedelics can be combined to great effect.

Hi Brewster,

thanks for your reply! That is very interesting - I believe that Vipassana is particularly useful for learning about yourself which is something that psychedelics have inherent to them as well. Therefore I believe that this practice in combination with psychedelics has great potential. However, I also think that one should be cautious (especially when meditating on higher doses). From what I understand Vipassana can be pretty "heavy" on the psyche on its own at times as it brings up the stuff deeply buried in the psyche. The concept of "harm reduction" probably also applies to something seemingly harmless as meditation, particularly in combination with psychedelic substances.

Anyway, I would be very happy to hear more about your experiences! Currently I feel that having meditated on low doses of psychedelics I can 1) enhance the psychedelic experience (although it is somehow different as you experience it not from your ego's perspective, I would even say it becomes a whole other experience; 2) have psychedelic experiences during meditation even when I am not taking substances (although these effects are not so pronounced 3) have a better meditation practice overall.

My path was as so many others - came in contacts with psychedelics rather accidentally, has very impressiive experiences which sparked my interest in meditation. Of course there is a great spectrum on how to employ both things, so I'm interested in your practice - never heard the term before.

You talk from my soul! I have seen so many people telling the same story which makes it even more clear to me that these things should not be separated but inherently belong to each other.

Daoist Neidan is an energy meditation practice (one of mainly three Daoist meditation traditions/practices). The practice is veeeery deep in terms of theory and in the West it is - sadly - not very easy to find qualified teachers. But essentially it involves merging your spirit, attention and breath within your lower dantian. If you do this correctly, you mind should dissolve and you come closer to what is called the DAO ("the universal way of things", which was present before there was Yin and Yang). According to the Daoists, when you do this long enough, you will cultivate Chi energy which will start reproducing again and nurturing you. Generally speaking, Neidan is therefore not only directed towards spiritual enlightenment but also towards living a healthy life in your body. The ultimate "goal" of Neidan is to become an immortal. If you have more questions on the practice, I am happy to help out, although I am certainly not a grand master or something.

 

[MuteUSO]

Oh and there was a poll in the enhancing consciousness section about whether or not to add a meditation sub-thread. Unfortunately, I couldn't take part - but maybe you want to (if you have not already done so). It would even be great to have a section where one can discuss the relationship between psychoactive substances and meditation. I mean, if you look at traditional (old cultures) ways to using these substances a lot of these traditional "procedures" involve one or the other form of meditation.

 

[DmnStr8]

It's like peas and carrots! :thumb_up:

I've been a daily meditator for a few years now. Psychedelics has improved my meditation practice tremendously. In turn, meditation has improved all of my psychedelic experiences. I approach both in the same manner. Respect, humor, gratitude and I pay attention like I am in a classroom. I have found that I have improved my overall experience of life with the combo. I am much more content and happy now than I have ever been in my life. That was not the case not long ago. I am extremely grateful for all the experiences I have now. Feels odd to even say that sometimes.


If you have not checked out this thread, please do. There are a lot of meditators round here. A Meditation Thread - Methods of Exploring Consciousness - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[brewster]

You make very interesting points. Yes, basically Vipassana can do that. Actually, what I do puts a lot of emphasis on the Samatha part, which is intended to give added stability in contrast to so-called "dry" Vipassana. Still - intense meditation brings stuff up, and that can be tough. Just like a psychedelic experience. Also, a serious insight into the nature of reality can be overwhelming and disorienting, even traumatizing - just like psychedelics.

You probably know the term "dark night of the soul" or "pit of the void" (the first one is of christian origin, the last one of Buddhist origin - they mean the same). It's a big topic which I'm happy to discuss. Especially since I think that this concerns both meditation and psychedelics.

What doesn't interest me too much (personally!) is meditating on psychedelics. Simply because meditating is my daily practice, and I try to make it a fundament of my life. Psychedelic journeys are rather rare and precious journeys for me, quite similar to a retreat, which one does from time to time to spice up the practice.
To me, precise intention setting has never been appealing. It's how I never was interested in lucid dreaming - I want to fall asleep, totally let go and let my subconscious take me wherever it wants. I trust in its inherent wisdom, much more so than on my own agendas. Same goes with tripping - I prepare thoroughly, but then I try to let go and just flow wherever the funny colored river will take me.
I'm talking about me only, of course. This is what I think suits my personality, I absolutely don't say that this is the way to do it. There is many other ways of approaching this which are totally legit and will be better for other people.

What you describe about your practice sounds very interesting. It reminds me a bit about Zen meditation - there is a similar focus, even though the philosophy is different. But Zen is influenced by Daoism, so I think that the link is there. I don't know if this question is too personal, but do you see yourself as a Daoist? I'm looking forward to read about your connection of the two approaches. Have you heard about Baldiners Zig Zag Zen?

 

[MuteUSO]

You make very interesting points. Yes, basically Vipassana can do that. Actually, what I do puts a lot of emphasis on the Samatha part, which is intended to give added stability in contrast to so-called "dry" Vipassana. Still - intense meditation brings stuff up, and that can be tough. Just like a psychedelic experience. Also, a serious insight into the nature of reality can be overwhelming and disorienting, even traumatizing - just like psychedelics.

You probably know the term "dark night of the soul" or "pit of the void" (the first one is of christian origin, the last one of Buddhist origin - they mean the same). It's a big topic which I'm happy to discuss. Especially since I think that this concerns both meditation and psychedelics.

Yet another highly interesting relationship/similarity. I am happy that you mentioned this, I never thought about it explicitly. But this is definitely something that deserves to be discussed in an own thread. It is fascinating to think about the potential to learn by relating the two practices more explicitly to each other.

What doesn't interest me too much (personally!) is meditating on psychedelics. Simply because meditating is my daily practice, and I try to make it a fundament of my life. Psychedelic journeys are rather rare and precious journeys for me, quite similar to a retreat, which one does from time to time to spice up the practice.
To me, precise intention setting has never been appealing. It's how I never was interested in lucid dreaming - I want to fall asleep, totally let go and let my subconscious take me wherever it wants. I trust in its inherent wisdom, much more so than on my own agendas. Same goes with tripping - I prepare thoroughly, but then I try to let go and just flow wherever the funny colored river will take me.
I'm talking about me only, of course. This is what I think suits my personality, I absolutely don't say that this is the way to do it. There is many other ways of approaching this which are totally legit and will be better for other people.

I can relate to the point you are making about somewhat separating the two as there is always the danger that psychedelics, due to their overwhelming nature, become ones main spiritual path. I had trouble with this before when realizing that I found myself meditating to "imitate" or reach psychedelic states. Not meditation!

However, I have to say that practicing genuine meditation while on psychedelics has provided me with some of the most profound experiences, even on much lower doses than what would be necessary "normally". The thing is that the whole experience actually becomes a totally different one as I am able to perceive it not from my ego's point of view but with pure awareness. For this to happen it is probably best to already take the substances while in a meditative state and keep meditating throughout the whole onset and peak - like this your ego cannot become sensitized to the experience and form interpretations and intentions.

What you describe about your practice sounds very interesting. It reminds me a bit about Zen meditation - there is a similar focus, even though the philosophy is different. But Zen is influenced by Daoism, so I think that the link is there. I don't know if this question is too personal, but do you see yourself as a Daoist? I'm looking forward to read about your connection of the two approaches. Have you heard about Baldiners Zig Zag Zen?

That is a very deep topic that you are touching. The thing with Daoism is that it is very deep and yet by far not as well organized than say Buddhism. A lot of Daoist ideas (especially concerning meditation practices) have been written in code, mystified and/or were only delivered in person from teacher to student. In addition, a lot of texts that exist have yet to be thoroughly translated from traditional Chinese, a very difficult thing to do without losing many aspects of meaning (there is e.g. way more than hundred English translations of the Dao De Jing and these are basically all very different books and probably butcher the original thing in many ways). Against this backdrop one should read texts discussing the connection with a grain of salt.

That said, I found "The Tao of Zen" quite interesting and accessible text. Drawing on scholarly work and primary texts, the text traces the origins of Daoism and Buddhism in ancient China and Japan. The author essentially argues that Zen Buddhism is deeply grounded in Daoism and that if the Buddhist overlay found in Zen is removed it becomes almost indistinguishable from Daoism. This is probably a simplification but there is also a point to it.

Zen and Daism certainly have much similarities in their approach to meditative practices. The ideas about consciousness and end states of non-duality are quite similar. Both approaches favor the realization of a "true nature" which comes before the all manifestations of perception and being. The core difference I see is that Daoism puts a lot more emphasis on the body and life energy "Chi". Therefore, Daoist meditation, in particular Neidan, is concerned with cultivating the body to the point that one becomes an "Immortal". Again be aware of the tendency of mystification, but there is a lot of texts emphasizing the good health of Daoists up to very high ages and then also these texts speaking of masters living well over hundreds of years.

 

[MuteUSO]

It's like peas and carrots! :thumb_up:

I've been a daily meditator for a few years now. Psychedelics has improved my meditation practice tremendously. In turn, meditation has improved all of my psychedelic experiences. I approach both in the same manner. Respect, humor, gratitude and I pay attention like I am in a classroom. I have found that I have improved my overall experience of life with the combo. I am much more content and happy now than I have ever been in my life. That was not the case not long ago. I am extremely grateful for all the experiences I have now. Feels odd to even say that sometimes.


If you have not checked out this thread, please do. There are a lot of meditators round here. A Meditation Thread - Methods of Exploring Consciousness - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I am so happy to read this and happy for your positive journey - good stuff! I feel that this is really the only community on the whole www where one can properly discuss this relation. There are a lot of meditation forums that go very deep, but usually psychedelics are just considered as one of the "thousand and one things" and their potential to explore consciousness remain undiscussed.

The thread you are referring to was actually one of the reasons to finally make an account on the nexus. So, thanks for this!

 

[DmnStr8]

It's like peas and carrots! :thumb_up:

I've been a daily meditator for a few years now. Psychedelics has improved my meditation practice tremendously. In turn, meditation has improved all of my psychedelic experiences. I approach both in the same manner. Respect, humor, gratitude and I pay attention like I am in a classroom. I have found that I have improved my overall experience of life with the combo. I am much more content and happy now than I have ever been in my life. That was not the case not long ago. I am extremely grateful for all the experiences I have now. Feels odd to even say that sometimes.


If you have not checked out this thread, please do. There are a lot of meditators round here. A Meditation Thread - Methods of Exploring Consciousness - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

I am so happy to read this and happy for your positive journey - good stuff! I feel that this is really the only community on the whole www where one can properly discuss this relation. There are a lot of meditation forums that go very deep, but usually psychedelics are just considered as one of the "thousand and one things" and their potential to explore consciousness remain undiscussed.

The thread you are referring to was actually one of the reasons to finally make an account on the nexus. So, thanks for this!

Nice to hear! Thank you for being here! :thumb_up: