Meditation and psychedelics

[PleasureAndBliss]

I'd like to add one more thought to this. A distinction can be made between concentration training (increasing the resolution of the mind) 'purifications' (releasing and integrating previously unconscious material, normally this starts to happen when one progresses on concentration training) and insight practices (sophisticated mindfulness, which goes far beyond just being in the moment, but a complete realization of how the mind really works), which require the first two steps. One can go through a lot of purifications, but still be far from realizing superior insight. Because, after a certain point, purifications will cease for the most part, but conditioning remains. Then, one can work at completely transforming the consciousness without old material getting in the way. For all this, a sufficient amount of concentration power is required.

I also assume that even sophisticated insight attainment dosen't make one enlightened. Some people get enlightened without any of it, some do it all and still don't reach the point. But training the mind, going through purifications and then realizing superior insight will incrementally increase the chance of enlightenment occurring. Still - there are many stages and forms, as well as ways these things can express themselves.

That's a good point, thank you for the precisions.

I feel both meditation and partaking in psychedelics, require a skillset and therefor, you get what you put into it. The effectiveness of any tool is directly proportional to the skill of the person wielding the tool. I don't blame my paintbrush for painting poorly. If the craftmanship of the house I built is lacking in any form, I don't blame my hammer and saw.

I have utilized both meditation and psychedelics for many years now. I feel they both compliment eachother very well. Both have benefitted me in countless ways. I very rarely use psychedelics anymore, with exception of DMT, which I use about every other month or so. I committed to daily meditation 13 years ago. Meditation is the most profound tool I have ever discovered and using this tool with psychedelics can be very empowering for personal growth.

There is only one way to Carnegie Hall.

Namaste! Be well!

That's really interesting for sure! Can you please be a little more precise about the practices you did when you mixed meditation and psychedelics? Like what dosages did you used and with which psychedelics? For example I can't see how somebody could use shamatha meditation with a breakthrough dose of DMT! Did you used low doses DMT and meditation? Mushrooms? Did you made mistakes that could be avoided? Do you have advices to grow a skillset for this? Any bit of information would be of a great help for me, I would like to make profit of your experience (but don't feel pressured by all my questions of course!)

Edit : I have one more question... Why did you stop using psychedelics, and focused only on DMT right now? Which psychedelic do you find more conductive to benefit a meditation practice? I'm considering finding some 2C-B and comparing it with psilocybin mushrooms. I don't feel DMT, as a fast acting psychedelic, would be so useful for deepening a meditative practice, but I could be wrong.

 

[brewster]

So... I'm not Bruadaraiche, and can only speculate on what he has meant. But I'd like to tell you what I assume he means and what I find true. The main point is: there is many aspects to meditation, there are many different techniques, goals, obstacles. So it is a bit difficult to talk about "meditation" per se.

Still - you don't have to do all too much in order to "mix" meditation and psychedelics. Bruadaraiche mentioned, and I fully agree, that meditation is best used as a daily practice of training the mind. If you become a proficient meditator, many benefits of meditation, like increased mindfulness and concentration capacity, will become more and more easily available to you in everyday life, not only while you're on the cushion.

So, for the most part, if you establish a reliable meditation practice, you will have many of the acquired skills available when you embark on a psychedelic journey. Another example: you will work with purifications, this means that suppressed material will cause you less trouble in day-to-day interactions. But also on your next trip.

Then, there are specific techniques you can use while meditating. For example: I have always had intense emotinal experiences which tended to overwhelm me. So I worked on this in my meditation, and learned how to use mindfulness in order to experience the emotions, not suppressing them, but also, not being swept away by them. There are several techniques, one of mine is anchoring my mind in the breath.
Recently, during a LSD experience, I had a sudden shift towards paranoia when I was outside alone, and had the impression that people followed me. A sudden, threatening wave of panic swept over me, and with such a technique, I could prevent that this would cause a thought-loop and the feeling quickly subsided.

Basically, I'd assume that one would use insight or metta practices on psychedelics. Concentration practices seem less interesting to me, but certainly, some people will differ. Question is what you're interested in, what you want to work on.

But what is universally true: meditation is best if you do it as regularly as possible. So, first step is to establish a practice and become a proficient meditator. Then, the qestion on how to combine this with psychedelics will be answered easily.

 

[Bruadaraiche]

That's really interesting for sure! Can you please be a little more precise about the practices you did when you mixed meditation and psychedelics? Like what dosages did you used and with which psychedelics? For example I can't see how somebody could use shamatha meditation with a breakthrough dose of DMT! Did you used low doses DMT and meditation? Mushrooms? Did you made mistakes that could be avoided? Do you have advices to grow a skillset for this? Any bit of information would be of a great help for me, I would like to make profit of your experience (but don't feel pressured by all my questions of course!)

Edit : I have one more question... Why did you stop using psychedelics, and focused only on DMT right now? Which psychedelic do you find more conductive to benefit a meditation practice? I'm considering finding some 2C-B and comparing it with psilocybin mushrooms. I don't feel DMT, as a fast acting psychedelic, would be so useful for deepening a meditative practice, but I could be wrong.

I am reluctant to respond to this as your motivation appears to monetary. If that is how you are going to approach this topic, I feel you will quickly lose sight of anything said here on this thread. I am sorry, but you lost me. Good luck with your endeavors.

Namaste. Be Well.

 

[PleasureAndBliss]

I am reluctant to respond to this as your motivation appears to monetary. If that is how you are going to approach this topic, I feel you will quickly lose sight of anything said here on this thread. I am sorry, but you lost me. Good luck with your endeavors.

Namaste. Be Well.

My motivation monetary ? English is not my first language, you mean that my motivation seems driven by money ? I just don't get it. I was extremely interested by the experience you said to have with meditations and psychedelics, as I value others experience to make the best informed choices. My motivation is to erase suffering from my life and understand in the process how theses approaches better oneself. I want to understand the process from a rigorous and scientific mindset, to be able to explain why meditation and psychedelics are good (or not) for you from a rigorous scientific point of view. But it's okay if you don't want to answer me haha.

EDIT : Bruadaraiche I think I understood why you reacted this way! When I said "I would like to make profit of your experience", its not financial profit! Did you understand that? I wanted to learn from your 13 years of dedicated meditation practice and use of psychedelics, not selling anything to anyone^^ Anyway, I had to precise it, my English is not so good...

I think that what psychedelic you chose to combine with meditation is an important question, as the dosage is. I'm always referring to Myron Stolaroff here, but he said that tryptamines are more inclined to throw you in deeply repressed psychic areas, phenethylamines less so (certainly thanks to their MDMA-like qualities). That seems to me really important if you want to control the intensity of the pace you're walking on. Dosage is certainly also of extreme importance (From Stolaroff: Working on the feelings brought out by low doses permit more change in your every-day life, and more lasting, compared to high doses).

So... I'm not Bruadaraiche, and can only speculate on what he has meant. But I'd like to tell you what I assume he means and what I find true. The main point is: there is many aspects to meditation, there are many different techniques, goals, obstacles. So it is a bit difficult to talk about "meditation" per se.

Maybe that is where Bruadaraiche and my approach differ. My point of view is that science need to understand what happen when you practice theses paths. We need to understand, in a psychological level, but also in a biochemical and neurological level. It is certainly difficult to speak about meditation, but it's not because it's difficult than we couldn't try to model what's happening, try to understand. I'm totally blasted by the TMI community in reddit. Lot's of people speak about their experience in such a clear way. I think we NEED to speak more about. Trials, errors, when you are stuck somewhere. Internet will permit us to gather the information, digest it, for the benefit of everyone. This forum is a good example of what power can be unleashed through gathering meaningful information about DMT use.

So, for the most part, if you establish a reliable meditation practice, you will have many of the acquired skills available when you embark on a psychedelic journey. Another example: you will work with purifications, this means that suppressed material will cause you less trouble in day-to-day interactions. But also on your next trip.

I understand that. It's been 8 years since my first meditative retreat. I've already felt intense purification through my meditation. Meditation permitted me to shift my personality, decrease my drug use from everyday to sporadic. That was lifechanging for me. But I'm aware that I've got much more to learn. I was too rigid on my approach and already tried to apply the advices I had here. 15min is better than 1h or nothing

Still - you don't have to do all too much in order to "mix" meditation and psychedelics. Bruadaraiche mentioned, and I fully agree, that meditation is best used as a daily practice of training the mind. If you become a proficient meditator, many benefits of meditation, like increased mindfulness and concentration capacity, will become more and more easily available to you in everyday life, not only while you're on the cushion.

Yeah I know and definitely agree on that and the rest of your post.

For the different meditations, I feel that insight meditation could be overkill to be mixed with psychedelics. Maybe that's just me, but I had difficulties to cope with stirred feelings during intense Goenka meditative retreats. At my second or third one, day 5, I felt dissolution of my entire body, I could sit for yours, joy etc... The next morning, huuuuuge painfull sensation on the level of my heart arose, like a total void. I worked with theses feeling through EMDR therapy and I'm much better now, but I'm more inclined toward wet approach to meditation now than dry vipassana. My main goal is to increase awareness/concentration before doing insight again. I feel that shamata/metta could be more usefull for navigating in the psychedelics realms (on low doses) than insight, but that's just me

Haha my post is kind of eclectic, but anyway it was great to articulate my motivations etc through this post. Thanks again for telling me about the reddit TMI site, I'm reading it non stop since you told me, such great reads Wish you the best !

 

[brewster]

Maybe that is where Bruadaraiche and my approach differ. My point of view is that science need to understand what happen when you practice theses paths. We need to understand, in a psychological level, but also in a biochemical and neurological level.

Absolutely. In my opinion, what limits this right now is that we still know very, very little about what consciousness is or how it is worked. We actually only have a few glimpses. So, our understanding about what meditation and psychedelics do is similarly limited.

I'm totally blasted by the TMI community in reddit. Lot's of people speak about their experience in such a clear way. I think we NEED to speak more about. Trials, errors, when you are stuck somewhere. Internet will permit us to gather the information, digest it, for the benefit of everyone. This forum is a good example of what power can be unleashed through gathering meaningful information about DMT use.

It makes me very happy that your experience is the same as mine has been. This is the great benefit of the TMI method - it establishes a very precise instrument to analyse and communicate progress.

For the different meditations, I feel that insight meditation could be overkill to be mixed with psychedelics. [...] I feel that shamata/metta could be more usefull for navigating in the psychedelics realms (on low doses) than insight, but that's just me

Sure - we all have our own paths and goals. I'd love to read more about how you approach this and what your experiences are. Thanks for this interesting exchange, and best wishes!

 

[Icyseeker]

I think meditation and psychedelic ventures complement each other well like milk and cookies. I personally use my psychedelic states that I end up in as a goal to get to in everyday consciousness. If you do it correctly you should be able to go further during your trips because of your insights in meditation.