mescaline hcl vs cactus difference in experience?

[eel]

Interested in potentially doing a mescaline extractions next week, the man who I get my cacti from says he doesn't agree with the hcl form and feels the other alkaloids in the cactus add to the experience. Can anyone add to what the differences in experience actually are, is freebase better in your personal experience or do you prefer it with the other alkaloids? PS will extract and test for myself anyways, just curious

 

[Broskillet]

I would personally take a full spectrum extract or even just juiced , over purified any day of the week...however, I would NEVER scoff at, or turn away purified mescaline or even synthetic....it's all good....but yeah depending on what cactus you use, there are indeed quite a few other alkaloids...not all or even many are active...but Some are, and that's enough for me....I also prefer my dmt to be full spectrum though....depending on cactus you use the effects can be Very different.... lophophora contains the greatest number of other alkaloids quite a few being active.... bridgessii typically contain Harman (an maoi) whereas pachanoi and torch do not.....and I believe that after lophophora with it's ,50 something alkaloids, I believe pachanoi has around ,13-15 , some being active, and I believe peruvianus has a lower number of other alkaloids....I've heard lophophora described as sedative...whereas pachanoi is just purely speedy..I grow lophophora but haven't eaten any yet

 

[DansMaTete]

A quick search led me to those threads. A bit of reading :
1
2
3
4
5

 

[Grey Fox]

There's a difference in the effects of tea made from different Trichocereus species. Pachanoi and bridgesii have a different feel to them. There is more than just mescaline content that affects the full spectrum experience. You will definitely lose some of that from an extraction process that only results in mescaline. But some of those non-mescaline alkaloids also cause muscle contractions and other side effects. I say try both and see which you prefer.

 

[eel]

I would personally take a full spectrum extract or even just juiced , over purified any day of the week...however, I would NEVER scoff at, or turn away purified mescaline or even synthetic....it's all good....but yeah depending on what cactus you use, there are indeed quite a few other alkaloids...not all or even many are active...but Some are, and that's enough for me....I also prefer my dmt to be full spectrum though....depending on cactus you use the effects can be Very different.... lophophora contains the greatest number of other alkaloids quite a few being active.... bridgessii typically contain Harman (an maoi) whereas pachanoi and torch do not.....and I believe that after lophophora with it's ,50 something alkaloids, I believe pachanoi has around ,13-15 , some being active, and I believe peruvianus has a lower number of other alkaloids....I've heard lophophora described as sedative...whereas pachanoi is just purely speedy..I grow lophophora but haven't eaten any yet

I also prefer full extract DMT, that is why i was also curious, i did Ayahausca this weekend for the first time and it is by far my favourite way of consuming DMT... I also grow some lophophora too, peyotes, maybe will try oneday when i have an abundance, right now they feel so sacred and i feel like i need to just preserve them, have tasted them thouhgh, have slithers of the peyotes when i graft them, slowly getting to know them. Im really excited to experiment a bit more with cacti thanks for your feedback

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Bridgesii has been shown to contain flavonoids which slow down the destruction of mescaline in the body, making its effects relatively stronger than its mescaline content alone would suggest. This sort of echoes what Broskillet said, although I've not seen anywhere that harman occurs in bridgesii. And harman isn't that great of an MAOI in vivo.

 

[Grey Fox]

There are bridgesiis that have tested very high in mescaline content as well. People often say that bridgesii has a lower amount of mescaline but that the maoi's and other alkaloids in it account for its strength. But I think the verdict is still out regarding whether or not bridgesii is actually lower in mescaline than pachanoi, peruvianus, etc.

Regardless, bridgesii is stronger and more intense than pachanoi. And if you add a small amount of bridgesii to a tea than is predominantly pachanoi it intensifies the effects of the brew.

 

[0_o]

It isn't uncommon for a person to take the same thing 5 times and have 5 different experiences.

When people believe that they will have a different experience with psychedelics they do.

The claims in this area are frequently suspect.

 

[endlessness]

but yeah depending on what cactus you use, there are indeed quite a few other alkaloids...not all or even many are active...but Some are, and that's enough for me....I also prefer my dmt to be full spectrum though....depending on cactus you use the effects can be Very different.... lophophora contains the greatest number of other alkaloids quite a few being active.... bridgessii typically contain Harman (an maoi) whereas pachanoi and torch do not.....and I believe that after lophophora with it's ,50 something alkaloids, I believe pachanoi has around ,13-15 , some being active, and I believe peruvianus has a lower number of other alkaloids....I've heard lophophora described as sedative...whereas pachanoi is just purely speedy..I grow lophophora but haven't eaten any yet

Please quote sources for your claims. Where did you read that bridgesii typically contains harman? I haven't found a single paper saying that, but I may have missed something. Also those numbers of how many alkaloids the cactus have, where do you get them from?

I have looked over all publications I could find on trichocereus analysis and haven't found any evidence to back up the claims people have regarding different cactus. You can read it here. All other alkaloids are in trace amounts in bridgesii, pachanoi and peruvianus, and they all have pretty much the same 'other alkaloids' .

There's a difference in the effects of tea made from different Trichocereus species. Pachanoi and bridgesii have a different feel to them. There is more than just mescaline content that affects the full spectrum experience. You will definitely lose some of that from an extraction process that only results in mescaline. But some of those non-mescaline alkaloids also cause muscle contractions and other side effects. I say try both and see which you prefer.

It may be so that when blind tests are finally done with this, people can reliably feel a difference in effects with different trichocereus cactus, but it also may be that they don't (that's my hypothesis). That being said, until we know for sure, we must be careful with how we word our comments. You say "there is a difference" but you don't really know yet. Please make sure to either back up your information with evidence if you make a claim, or make it clear it is your belief/opinion only.

If you're talking about your subjective experience, make that clear too, so the reader can come to his own measured conclusions. Subjective experience in this case leaves a few questions because first of all, self-suggestion can play a part ("I know this is a different species therefore I unconsciously expect a different experience" or "I know this is a purified extract/synthetic chemical therefore I unconsciously expect a less "full" experience" ) .

Also, unless people have standardized the dosages of their cactus teas, it makes it very hard to compare, because for example you may be comparing 450mg of mescaline in a tea vs 300mg of extract which you know the dosage, and that's not a fair comparison.

It isn't uncommon for a person to take the same thing 5 times and have 5 different experiences.

When people believe that they will have a different experience with psychedelics they do.

The claims in this area are frequently suspect.

Completely agree. That has been my experience, even same compound can give different experiences. Specifically with trichocereus cactus and answering OP's question, me personally I have found no significant difference between bridgesii, peruvianus, pachanoi, extracted mescaline (fumarate and HCl), as well as synthetic mescaline. I've had amazing experiences on all of them.

Bridgesii has been shown to contain flavonoids which slow down the destruction of mescaline in the body, making its effects relatively stronger than its mescaline content alone would suggest.

Which flavonoids slow down the destruction of mescaline in the body making the effects stronger, in which cact was it found and in what amounts? Please quote sources.

The only thing I could find with anything similar was 3,4-DMPEA, which is not a flavonoid and is in trace amounts in cactus, having MAOI properties, but when you read the paper, it is in vitro, and they used a concentrated solution of the compound directly on brain mitochondria, and they claim "significant" but there are no IC50 binding values nor any binding curve data so it's very hard to know what it means in terms of potency. Is it a significant MAOI in humans, in vivo, at relevant dosages? Does it reliably affect the mescaline experience in a qualitative sense? This is what people seem to immediately assume prematurely imo. Lastly regarding this compound, in the tests ive done, this compound shows up sometimes in extracts too, and indiscriminately regardless of whether it is pachanoi, peruvianus or bridgesii so it neither would help explaining differences people claim

 

[padawan]

Bridgesii has been shown to contain flavonoids which slow down the destruction of mescaline in the body, making its effects relatively stronger than its mescaline content alone would suggest.

Which flavonoids slow down the destruction of mescaline in the body making the effects stronger, in which cact was it found and in what amounts? Please quote sources.

The only thing I could find with anything similar was 3,4-DMPEA, which is not a flavonoid and is in trace amounts in cactus, having MAOI properties, but when you read the paper, it is in vitro, and they used a concentrated solution of the compound directly on brain mitochondria, and they claim "significant" but there are no IC50 binding values nor any binding curve data so it's very hard to know what it means in terms of potency. Is it a significant MAOI in humans, in vivo, at relevant dosages? Does it reliably affect the mescaline experience in a qualitative sense? This is what people seem to immediately assume prematurely imo. Lastly regarding this compound, in the tests ive done, this compound shows up sometimes in extracts too, and indiscriminately regardless of whether it is pachanoi, peruvianus or bridgesii so it neither would help explaining differences people claim

I think downwards may have been referring to this article: Flavonoids: the overlooked ingredient in potency

 

[form is emptiness]

After some years of experimentation based on working with materials sourced from me own garden I can vouch for full spectrum golden syrup. Just water, heat and time along with a meditative approach to developing a proper relationship with mescalito as an ally will always trump cold hard chem. An Animistic approach is in greater harmony, imo.

 

[endlessness]

I think downwards may have been referring to this article: Flavonoids: the overlooked ingredient in potency

This article only makes a generic claim that "I came across numerous reports that Trichocereus bridgesii contained the flavonoids quercetin and kaempferol" , yet there isn't a single source to back up that claim in that page. If someone can find a source that backs it up, we can look at it critically and look at doses and potential effects. I've tried looking for it and all I could find was this paper which mentions it found those flavonoids in bridgesii yet it did not seem to look for it in pachanoi nor peruvianus, and it even specifically says these flavonoids have been found in EVERY species of the cactacea family, so we can probably safely assume if they had looked for it they would also have found in pachanoi and peruvianus. So we're back to square 1 in relation to finding a chemical basis for explaining supposed differences in effects of different cactus.

Also, the paper does not talk about amounts in any way, so for all we know we might have traces of those flavonoids only, with no effects. What is the IC50 of those flavonoids? In what dosage would the effects be significant? These flavonoids have been found in all sorts of foods we eat every day, so what are the comparable amounts in cactus? If we are assuming that these compounds will make a difference in effect of pure mescaline vs cactus tea, what about pure mescaline + eating a tomato or potatoes or onions etc which contains those compounds?

I'd also like to read more sources regarding mescaline pharmacology. Does MAOI have an effect on mescaline effects as downwardsfromzero claims? Has this been shown? At what dosages? And if it indeed has an effect, does it change the quality of the experience or only duration?

This paper says mescaline is not metabolized by MAO, though this in vitro study seems to say otherwise

Pharmacology wise even if mescaline is oxidized by MAO, it doesn't necessarily mean it will increase duration since we could potentially simply see a shift in metabolism pathway to another that isn't affect by MAO as this paper seems to suggest (though I can't have access to the full paper, maybe someone can help). Did anyone here experiment with a known dosage of MAOI and mescaline and can share their experience?

And back to the quoted page, the author of that page says "numerous reports" I'd imagine there are more sources to this claim, or the author took unsourced reports as evidence and they all actually were based on this one unquantified study, either way it's a bit disingenuous to talk about 'numerous reports' unless there are more primary sources that I can't find.

Is it possible the idea of "full spectrum gives different trip" is a romantic idea that has a lot of appeal to nature-lovers but no chemical basis in these cases, and is a reflection of self-suggestion ?

 

[Grey Fox]

If all you are after is just the mescaline then your standard must be high grade synthetic mescaline. Too bad you have to resort to cacti at all, with all their impurities and inconsistencies. Too bad nature has to even be involved. Do you prefer pure synthetic THC to actual bud as well?

Personally I enjoy growing these cacti. Its fun to watch them grow big and strong. The bigger and older they get the more potent their cuttings become.

There definitely is a difference between cuttings from different plants. Bridgesii is a stronger, more intense experience with a harder edge to it and more unpleasant physical side effects. Pachanoi is gentler on the psyche and the body. With pachanoi the experience is consistently happy, uplifting, and positive. Even though there may be stomach discomfort and nausea, the overall physical experience with pachanoi is pleasant and energetic. Bridgesii will lock your body upwith muscle contractions and tremors. In high doses it can leave you foggy and dazed. You may have a pleasant euphoric experience from Bridgesii, but you just as likely may have a hard, intense, psychologically challenging trip.

The different species have different effects and this has been well chronicled by experience reports in the online psychedelic community. The hard science is so miniscule in scale in comparison when it comes to these cacti. Why dismiss the subjective experience? Have you tried tea in high doses from different cacti to compare the effects?

 

[0_o]

I have little doubt some differences exist between different forms, extracts and isolates.

However I haven't found any consistent results and can't qualify or quantify the difference.

Consider that no extraction is 100% efficient, if you eat 1000g of cacti you are going to ingest more alkaloid than you can ingest if you extract. That could easily promote a claim that there is a difference due to isolated verses mixed alkaloids and yet be an entirely dose dependant result.

T. bridgesii tends to be stronger. I would expect that more alkaloid results in more intensity. However some pachanoi are also very strong and very intense. In terms of personal experience the strongest and most intense (cactus only) experiences I have had were from pachanoi.

But that is just anecdote.
This discussion could use some data like dose size in weight.
Personally after a couple of decades of experience I start good pachanoi and bridgesii doses at 250 grams fresh, which with some forms is plenty strong and quite intense. If I was using a plant that needed a 1000g dose and then took a stronger plant at that dose it would be very intense. I've made that mistake before, but it was over 5000g for material that needs only 250-300g. I was inexperienced and it was irresponsible of me to assume that comparable doses would result in comparable experiences.

These plants can range from 0.1% mescaline dry (or less) to 2%+... with this kind of varition a dose of some plants requires twenty times less than others... and they get stronger than 2%.

Upon examining most claims of differences people seem to be taking very similarly sized plant doses of plants that vary tremendously in potency and many don't even weigh them but instead use length as a dose method... given what we now know about these plants that strikes me as irresponsible, fortunately mescaline is not particularly toxic in most people.


If you are used to a common pachanoi and then take the same amount of bridgesii and find it more intense, that makes sense. If you are used to 500mg of mescaline and then take 2-3g you are probably going to notice a difference.


I've used many forms (>10) many times (>50) for many years (~20) and I have not noticed any differences between forms and preparations that is unexplainable as a dose dependant result.

 

[endlessness]

If all you are after is just the mescaline then your standard must be high grade synthetic mescaline. Too bad you have to resort to cacti at all, with all their impurities and inconsistencies. Too bad nature has to even be involved. Do you prefer pure synthetic THC to actual bud as well?

Maybe I misunderstand you but your sarcastic tone seems awfully out of place and unnecessary, since it doesn't add to the discussion and just creates a combative attitude.

You say "synthetic mescaline" in a seemingly derrogatory way, as if there is a difference between extracted mescaline and synthetic mescaline. Not even getting into the whole "cact tea vs pure mesc" subject for now but, if I extract mescaline from cactus and purify it, do you think it will be different than pure synthetic mescaline? What kind of differences will it be, and what is the mechanism that explains these differences? Physically and chemically the two compounds are exactly the same, they will act in the same receptors, so if you think there is a difference, it must be beyond physical right? What would happen if you take ketanserin, a 5-ht2a antagonist which blocks the effects of psychedelics, will you still feel a difference between synthetic and natural purified mescaline?

Regarding synthetic THC and actual bud, it's a false equivalency because first of all often the THC synthesis doesn't yield delta9 THC but other isomers of THC which do not have the same effects. Secondly, cannabis has significant amounts of other compounds, unlike the mostly trace amounts of other compounds in cact in most cases. Thirdly the compounds found in cannabis have been shown to modulate the THC effects at the dosages that are naturally found. For example CBD has been shown to modulate THC effects. Of course even this will have a limit, for example let's say we find a plant that contains 15% thc and 0% cbd, and another that contains 15% thc and 0.000000000000000000000001% cbd, my hypothesis is they will feel exactly the same. If it's 15% and 1%, though, I'd guess they would indeed feel different, dosages are always very important.

So until you can demonstrate that cactus have significant amount of other alkaloids and that those alkaloids will affect the experience pharmacologically, this is atm merely wishful thinking. It may turn out to be correct wishful thinking or it may not, but if you have a predetermined conclusion about what it is, then you are being biased (and also making your conclusions about your subjective experience of those differences possibility tainted due to self-suggestion).

Maybe you think of me as closed minded for questioning the idae that "plants are good, pure compounds lack spirit", but maybe you can take that as an opportunity to sincerely question yourself too. After all, isn't this a big part of what these compounds do, to help us revise our own models about the world and standard mode of thinking?

Personally I also deeply enjoy growing these cacti, have several of them and love consuming them in all forms.

There definitely is a difference between cuttings from different plants. Bridgesii is a stronger, more intense experience with a harder edge to it and more unpleasant physical side effects. Pachanoi is gentler on the psyche and the body. With pachanoi the experience is consistently happy, uplifting, and positive.

The different species have different effects and this has been well chronicled by experience reports in the online psychedelic community. The hard science is so miniscule in scale in comparison when it comes to these cacti. Why dismiss the subjective experience? Have you tried tea in high doses from different cacti to compare the effects?

Have you ever extracted from the cactus you are consuming in the form of tea, to know how much mescaline % there is inside? Or how do you judge the amounts, by cact weight? Did you consider the possibility that you are simply consuming more mescaline in one or the other due to them being of different potencies, and together with self-suggestion, it may explain the differences you feel in effects?

And yes, of course I have tried tea in high doses of different cact as well as consuming all sorts of preparations (synthetic mesc, different salts of extracted mesc, peyote, bridgesii pedro and peruvianus in tea, resin and swallowing powder), and I simply came to a different conclusion than yours, at least so far. It may change in the future, I am always open to revision.

Notice I am not dismissive of your experience and not making jokes about it. I am merely considering a possibility which has been documented endless times in thousands of different experiments, the possibility of self-suggestion and how it can affect an experience, as well as the possibility of consuming different amounts of mescaline and how it can affect the experience. I am also offering my own experience as well as digging through the publications to see if we can learn more about this. Don't take it as an offense

 

[Grey Fox]

No offense taken. Thanks for clarifying your position.

I have no experience with extraction. Most of my experience has been with eating raw cactus. I also have experience with tea. Even going from raw cactus to tea results in a diminishment of potency. But unfortunately over time it has become more and more challenging to stomach the raw cactus material, so it looks like tea for me moving forward. Maybe one day I will try an extraction. I have nothing against it in principle.

 

[pete666]

I have experience with my first mescaline - 300mg (pure synthetic) mescaline doing nothing. Just one very nice oev layered over one picture (10x10cm) whole time. No (no means absolutely no) physical or psychical effects except this small but very clear picture overlay being there many hours.
It was clearly telling me I am still not allowed to enter, but showing me (by the small oev) I can if I change something deeply inside of me. I did that and from that point 300mg takes me to very nice places every session.

My next similar experience is my first session with about 30pcs of very potent wild mushrooms. 30pcs is something like 4g of pc. No effects at all. The same dose was taken 12 hours later and ... that was a ride!
I would say impossible, but after that I know it is.

So please bear in mind that the software is within our head and it is very complex. Having a key(the chemical) doesn't mean it will activate and especially with psychedelics, it can vary a lot!

Very difficult to study just by pure science methods...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Does MAOI have an effect on mescaline effects as downwardsfromzero claims?

Hehe! Look again, you'll see I wrote: "...flavonoids which slow down the destruction of mescaline" - nowhere did I mention MAOI with regards to mescaline. I only referred to harman as being a poor MAOI.

But good on you for wanting the data (as ever)!
padawan was right about the article to which I was referring - and endlessness is correct in saying that doesn't constitute reasonable scientific proof

My intention was to remind people of the concept that prolonging the half-life of bioactive alkaloids need not be down to co-administered MAO inhibitors, nor need those co-administered substances be of an alkaloidal nature. One's diet preceding the ingestion of mescaline, and even the time of day, will have some influence on the body's metabolic enzymes - without even mentioning an individuals genetic make-up and gene expression tendencies.

But one example of my thoughts on this matter: DMPEA, given its fairly close resemblance to mescaline, can be fairly reasonably expected to interact, on the one hand, competitively with parts of the mescaline metabolism, slowing the breakdown of mescaline and prolonging its half-life. On the other hand, it's possible a compound like this could induce the activity of mescaline-destroying enzymes and hasten its breakdown. Life is full of surprises! Until proper metabolic studies have been done, it's ill-considered to be making definitive claims about the matter.

Suffice to say, if it turns out that there is a substance not amenable to extraction via the usual A/B/A method for obtaining cactus alkaloids which nonetheless can be shown to have an effect on cactus alkaloid metabolism, then there would be a reason for accepting that whole cactus preparations might have a stronger/longer effect than a comparable amount of extracted mescaline. In all likelihood, certain flavonoids would fit the bill, but further tests would clearly be desirable.

I'll be sure to report any findings about flavonoids in cactus, or indeed any other substances found in them which are likely to have inhibitory effects on cactus alkaloid metabolism in vivo should I find them in the literature.

 

[0_o]

Trouts Notes TN3B contains references to the flavonoids identification.
Quercetin and Kaempferol were among them.
I'll follow up on this in a bit.

Okay:
Reported to contain Kaempferol & Quercetin (Flavonols)
Richardson 1978 (based on acid hydrolysis)

Richardson, Mick (1978 ) Biochemical Systematics and Ecology, 6: 283–286. “Flavonols and C-Glycosylflavonoids of the Caryophyllales.”

Abstract

A survey of 112 species of the Caryophyllales showed the presence of flavonols in all eleven families and of C-glycosylflavonoids in nine families, being absent from the Aizoaceae and Cactaceae. 18% of the species contained both classes of compound. C-glycosylflavonoids are reported for the first time in the Amaranthaceae, Basellaceae, Didieraceae, Nyctaginaceae, Phytolaccaceae, Portulacaceae and Molluginaceae. The Caryophyllaceae contained prodominantly C-glycosylflavonoids, suggesting they are the most advanced family in the order.

It would appear that he found flavonoids in every cactus he tested...
However I have not been able to find the complete article and I am not aware of follow up confirmation.

Both of those flavonoids are rather common.

Regarding quercetin:

The bioavailability of quercetin in humans is low and highly variable (0–50%), and it is rapidly cleared with an elimination half-life of 1–2 hours after ingesting quercetin foods or supplements.[16] Following dietary ingestion, quercetin undergoes rapid and extensive metabolism that makes the biological effects presumed from in vitro studies unlikely to apply in vivo.[17][18]

Quercetin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One can find Quercetin in a health food store and could easily engineer an experiment with it, an alkaloid extract from cacti and a group of people...

 

[dragonrider]

In my experience, cacti are different each time. Cacti, no matter what species or strain, are never the same in the experience they produce. Their alkaloid profile varies enormously, even within the same strain.

It's not just the mescaline content that varies. There's also something in cacti, that dulls the effects of mescaline. Maybe it is not one single substance even. It's sonething with a sedative effect. Mescaline itself doesn't have that.

That sedative compound (or compounds) also varies.